😕 I'm a newcomer to this website, but a long-time audio diy-er. And this generally looks like a serious place frequented by creative individuals with a common passion for music and hi-fi. So...
What is this fascination with chip-amps? Different incarnations have been around for 30 years and all have one thing in common: minimum part/design cost aimed at mass-produced, consumer appliances... read: COMPROMISE! They are the big-Mac, fast-food solutions to mini hi-fi, TV, PC audio etc etc. And while they may offer fair sound at a cheap price, they offer zero scope for creativity. And I will not believe that JFET or tube buffering, any variations of input filtering or substation-sized power supplies will ever elevate their performance beyond average. And I don't care what 47 Labs claim...
C'mon guys, demote these toys to the lowly status they deserve or go mad with sub-woofer or AV-multichannel applications, but don't desecrate the spirit and no-compromise fun of diy-fi by lending voluminous credence, not to mention megs of forum webspace, to these instant-coffee hi-fi wannabes...
What is this fascination with chip-amps? Different incarnations have been around for 30 years and all have one thing in common: minimum part/design cost aimed at mass-produced, consumer appliances... read: COMPROMISE! They are the big-Mac, fast-food solutions to mini hi-fi, TV, PC audio etc etc. And while they may offer fair sound at a cheap price, they offer zero scope for creativity. And I will not believe that JFET or tube buffering, any variations of input filtering or substation-sized power supplies will ever elevate their performance beyond average. And I don't care what 47 Labs claim...
C'mon guys, demote these toys to the lowly status they deserve or go mad with sub-woofer or AV-multichannel applications, but don't desecrate the spirit and no-compromise fun of diy-fi by lending voluminous credence, not to mention megs of forum webspace, to these instant-coffee hi-fi wannabes...
Go build one, and dont make it bad on purpose, its not like it will cost you much to try.
Also remeber many of these so called "minimum part/design cost aimed at mass-produced, consumer appliances... " are not actually that similar to the 'super stripped down' high quality component, inverted versions you will see on this forum.
So read all the posts here see what makes for the 'best' chip amp and try it.
Please dont say things like "demote these toys to the lowly status they deserve," thats really not a fair statement when people have put so much work into experimenting (successfully) with these amps.
Beggar
Also remeber many of these so called "minimum part/design cost aimed at mass-produced, consumer appliances... " are not actually that similar to the 'super stripped down' high quality component, inverted versions you will see on this forum.
So read all the posts here see what makes for the 'best' chip amp and try it.
Please dont say things like "demote these toys to the lowly status they deserve," thats really not a fair statement when people have put so much work into experimenting (successfully) with these amps.
Beggar
DrG,
It's a free world, you can believe what you want, but ain't you even a little bit curious? 😉
It's a free world, you can believe what you want, but ain't you even a little bit curious? 😉
DrG,
I personally do not have interest in chip amps. But I understand the diversity of members we have here and chip amps serve many of them well. Some are teenagers who want to build their first audio amp on a very low budget. Some are intrigued by the simplicity and power associated to the small size. Some just want a project for the weekend. And the examples go on and on.
It is a fun and colorful bunch of people we have here! Enjoy the good company.
I personally do not have interest in chip amps. But I understand the diversity of members we have here and chip amps serve many of them well. Some are teenagers who want to build their first audio amp on a very low budget. Some are intrigued by the simplicity and power associated to the small size. Some just want a project for the weekend. And the examples go on and on.
It is a fun and colorful bunch of people we have here! Enjoy the good company.
First question i always ask is , Have you ever heard a gaincard or gainclone? I see ppl saying that an amp has to be complicated for proper performance and then i see the SET set of ppl who thrive on simplicity.
I was the same way , i was deep into restored marantz recievers and amps as well as homebrew PP 6bq5 tube amps, then i built my first gainclone (battery powered) and the sound made me realize what the other amps were missing.
It simple to make, cheap and except for the tight P2P wiring its easy.Build one and you will have the right to put them down after you build one and compare it to a more complicated amp and it dosent meet your desires.
ron
I was the same way , i was deep into restored marantz recievers and amps as well as homebrew PP 6bq5 tube amps, then i built my first gainclone (battery powered) and the sound made me realize what the other amps were missing.
It simple to make, cheap and except for the tight P2P wiring its easy.Build one and you will have the right to put them down after you build one and compare it to a more complicated amp and it dosent meet your desires.
ron
DrG said:
You just started another contribution of even more megs of lended forum webspace to those hi-fi wannabes with your doubting post. Did you ever had one of those instant coffee chips in your hand, not to mention building p2p circuit in a custom, CNC machined chassis? Man, it feels so awesome.😉
But since you don't care what 47 Labs claim, how can you expect us to care what you say?
DrG said:
Oh, here it comes....
Would you believe I thought exactly the same thing!!!
OK, let's cut to the chase. I have a Vacuum State Electronics RTP Preamp and Isolated Loop Amplifiers, the ultimate in tube amps IMHO. They are conservatively worth $35.000 - and they sound amazing. Using these as a superb standard, I believe I am quite able to judge the sound of gainclones. I am also associated with a group of ultimate audiophiles, and friend or no friend, they are merciless if something doesn't come up to scratch. Half of them are direct heated triode fans.
Well, my hard-nosed associates have given my JLTi (cascode tube buffered, bandwidth tuned, super-reg'd power suppplies) the thumbs up. And if I had an opportunity to demo the JLTi to you as well, then I suspect I would have yours as well. Really, it's that good!
May I also say, and I think there is a general consensus formed, that the best results are from one chip from only one manufacturer, and in a line of related chips from this manufacturer, one stands out as the honey (and curiously enough, 47 Labs isn't using it) and that is the LM-3875T.
Whatever conspired to create the LM-3875T, if you believed in horoscopes or otherwise believer in fate (not exactly me), then certain things came together, happenstance or otherwise, to produce something to marvel at. Let us not reason why, but merely be thankful.
For a quarter of a century I have been building tube amps, so... I had to be dragged almost screaming to build a gainclone for a friend, as he didn't have the expertise, and he knew I did.
Oh, you gotta be kidding, chip power amps? YUCK!!!
OOPS!
So dispel the doubts, have a go. And then be as amazed as the rest of us. These little blighters actually play music. Then you will no doubt be joining us. And we shall welcome you with open arms. 🙂
Joe R.
You forget one important thing: The time has passed. TDA2020 isn't the same thing as LM3886 and similar. Simplicity is one important factor. Personally I think it's more satifying to really design (with discrete parts) and compromise myself instead of others doing it for me.DrG said:
If you are a poor student I think it's a good thing to start with a chipamp and get samples for free.
I don't think you've offended anybody, per se, but I do think that you've diluted any opinions you may choose to share from now on.
If you look on the back of most active studio monitors, you will find an amp with a monolithic IC at its core. Just about every CD or LP created in the last 5 years will have been recorded, mixed and mastered using chip amp technology.
Of course, this means that unless you only listen to your own recordings or (pre-cassette era) vinyl, you have likely been enjoying sounds fine-tuned with the wonderful characteristics of a chip amp.
🙂ensen.
PS: If you check out the internal circuit diagram of an IC amp, you'll notice that it looks fairly similar to the schematic of a some discrete amps. Heresy! What were those chip designers thinking anyway?
If you look on the back of most active studio monitors, you will find an amp with a monolithic IC at its core. Just about every CD or LP created in the last 5 years will have been recorded, mixed and mastered using chip amp technology.
Of course, this means that unless you only listen to your own recordings or (pre-cassette era) vinyl, you have likely been enjoying sounds fine-tuned with the wonderful characteristics of a chip amp.
🙂ensen.
PS: If you check out the internal circuit diagram of an IC amp, you'll notice that it looks fairly similar to the schematic of a some discrete amps. Heresy! What were those chip designers thinking anyway?
What I find interesting is that the LM3875 has two NPN output transistors - a throwback to the bad old days of the early 70's!purplepeople said:
Normally this would induce an extended bout of serious puking, but if you just treat as a black box then it is quit an amazing little jigger. This is not to say that all IC power amps are really good, just as not all discrete amps are really good, nor are all valve amps.I only use LM3875's for my subs at the moment - I'm afraid to compare them with my 50+50 watt, 53 kg blood-sweat-and-tears-consuming class A amp just in case they are better...
Make one, then complain.
Gringoaudio and I did a comparison of his gainclone versus my P3A. The latter was the clear winner, we both agreed. Now, is that because Greg (gringo) used too much capacitance? Because he didn't use Black Gate caps? Or maybe he didn't have the right kind of feet on his chassis...balderdash!Circlotron said:
It's probably because my amp was a better match to my speakers (Dayton IIIs). Our experiment was sufficient to convince me not to build another chip amp for my main system. My Advent powered loudspeaker restoration project is using chip amps, however, as it is the quickest and easiest solution. That will make three chip-amp projects for me, and that's enough. Time for something else.
There's no doubt that the gainclone is a great amp for beginners, and it's done a lot to open up the world of DIYaudio, similar to what the Cmoy amp (headwize.com) did for headphone amp builders. But, as Peter mentions, it moves the challenge to the chassis or power supply construction. That does not interest me as much, I'd rather re-use an old chassis than build a new one.
Some of us in Calgary are thinking about having a bake-off of different amps, speakers, etc. The more amps the better, I'd love to have a big Class A to compare the others to.
So dispel the doubts, have a go. And then be as amazed as the rest of us. These little blighters actually play music. Then you will no doubt be joining us. And we shall welcome you with open arms.
sound like a Cult!
Since Gainclones are so easy to build, you almost have to put one
together and see for yourself before passing judgement.
m.
sound like a Cult!
Since Gainclones are so easy to build, you almost have to put one
together and see for yourself before passing judgement.
m.
Assumption is not a good thing. For example Mr Daniels and others who assume I have not built a "gainclone". I have built an LM 3875 AND TDA7294 amp... long before the catchy "gainclone" name was coined. Surprized? And what I found was average... better than the grunge SS amps of yore but not a patch on the Elektor Medium-Power amp designed by T. Giffard back in the eighties. Which I have also built and also no longer own...
Perhaps they are a good starting point for getting into diy-fi but don't hold your breath in a head-to-head with a well-made and well-designed discrete project.
Anybody know of a Krell, Mark Levinson, Aragon, Audio Research, Musical Fidelity, Parasound etc etc etc etc containing one... nope, didn't think so. Anybody here think they ever will... another negative. Now may I humbly ask this forum... WHY? Quod est demonstrandum?
Perhaps d'Agostino, de Paravicini, Curtis and the other engineers who design quality amps are all missing the point... or perhaps they aren't. Judge for yourselves... but I still believe better results are to be had (and a lot of fun and satisfaction) by aiming a tad higher. And that's all I thought should be said.
Perhaps they are a good starting point for getting into diy-fi but don't hold your breath in a head-to-head with a well-made and well-designed discrete project.
Anybody know of a Krell, Mark Levinson, Aragon, Audio Research, Musical Fidelity, Parasound etc etc etc etc containing one... nope, didn't think so. Anybody here think they ever will... another negative. Now may I humbly ask this forum... WHY? Quod est demonstrandum?
Perhaps d'Agostino, de Paravicini, Curtis and the other engineers who design quality amps are all missing the point... or perhaps they aren't. Judge for yourselves... but I still believe better results are to be had (and a lot of fun and satisfaction) by aiming a tad higher. And that's all I thought should be said.
Gainclone vs CoolFollower
I have a Cool Follower without the output capacitor ( one extra transistor not in path to set output at 0V ), and LM3886 gain clone with switch premp ( opa2134 on or off ).
What could I say. Cool Follower is a much better in any music ( except hard rock or so ), electronic, classical, jazz. It play easy, and a lot of detail music, everything are in place. Gain clone is bright, sharp and bleeee.
My advise to Gain Clone lowers. Borrow a good class A amp and listen.....
I'm affraid about your gain clones.
I have a Cool Follower without the output capacitor ( one extra transistor not in path to set output at 0V ), and LM3886 gain clone with switch premp ( opa2134 on or off ).
What could I say. Cool Follower is a much better in any music ( except hard rock or so ), electronic, classical, jazz. It play easy, and a lot of detail music, everything are in place. Gain clone is bright, sharp and bleeee.
My advise to Gain Clone lowers. Borrow a good class A amp and listen.....
I'm affraid about your gain clones.
I did not assume you didn't built a clone. I just asked you if you used special care when building one.
Few months ago I might try to argue and persuade you that you are wrong and maybe you should try again. I'm tired of all those fruitless disputes now. BTW, I like the choice of words in your first post very much.
All I can say now is that I have parts for 15 Aleph X amps, which currently are close to cutting edge in SS amplification. I also built few Alephs and Zens and still have them in my possesion. So what you say if I tell you that I'm using GC everywhere at home now (4 systems) and I'm seriously thinking about selling the parts I bought to built Alephs?😉
(PS: This is a bit of exageration, but I can honestly say that GCs don't give up anything comparing to Alephs, in certain applications of course)
Few months ago I might try to argue and persuade you that you are wrong and maybe you should try again. I'm tired of all those fruitless disputes now. BTW, I like the choice of words in your first post very much.
All I can say now is that I have parts for 15 Aleph X amps, which currently are close to cutting edge in SS amplification. I also built few Alephs and Zens and still have them in my possesion. So what you say if I tell you that I'm using GC everywhere at home now (4 systems) and I'm seriously thinking about selling the parts I bought to built Alephs?😉
(PS: This is a bit of exageration, but I can honestly say that GCs don't give up anything comparing to Alephs, in certain applications of course)
Hi!
Apart from being deeply convinced that building audio electronics should not lead to the ever so common flame wars on messageboards (like "Windows vs Linux", "nVidia vs ATi", "3Dfx vs nVidia", "Porsche vs Ferrari", "Matrix vs Dark City" and so on), I only want to add this:
Integrated electronic devices are just "big" electronics assembled on a nano-sized level. And while you can easily construct a real bad discrete amplifier, or pre-ampflifier, you can surely do so as well with integrated devices.
But the other way around is also possible. Integrated technologies are evolving in giant leaps. Just take a look at electronic devices serving the same purpose 15 -10 years ago and now, for example a soundcard for a PC. First sounndblaster series, a hell of a big card, with loads of ICs, caps, resistors and so on. Now the same functionality PLUS tons of more features are realized in a single DSP chip, with near-to-null external components.
The same with audio chip amps or op amps. While there will always be the not-so-good cheap solutions, the best products will get even better and better, and also the low-end devices profit from that.
One last example: Try implementing a Petium processor by using discrete transistors (and I bet that Konrad Zuse would have killed for getting his hands on some thousand standards NPN and PNPs)... 😎 😎 😎
Bye,
Arndt
Apart from being deeply convinced that building audio electronics should not lead to the ever so common flame wars on messageboards (like "Windows vs Linux", "nVidia vs ATi", "3Dfx vs nVidia", "Porsche vs Ferrari", "Matrix vs Dark City" and so on), I only want to add this:
Integrated electronic devices are just "big" electronics assembled on a nano-sized level. And while you can easily construct a real bad discrete amplifier, or pre-ampflifier, you can surely do so as well with integrated devices.
But the other way around is also possible. Integrated technologies are evolving in giant leaps. Just take a look at electronic devices serving the same purpose 15 -10 years ago and now, for example a soundcard for a PC. First sounndblaster series, a hell of a big card, with loads of ICs, caps, resistors and so on. Now the same functionality PLUS tons of more features are realized in a single DSP chip, with near-to-null external components.
The same with audio chip amps or op amps. While there will always be the not-so-good cheap solutions, the best products will get even better and better, and also the low-end devices profit from that.
One last example: Try implementing a Petium processor by using discrete transistors (and I bet that Konrad Zuse would have killed for getting his hands on some thousand standards NPN and PNPs)... 😎 😎 😎
Bye,
Arndt
Circlotron said:
The kin of circuit that NAIM used (or maybe still uses) in all there classic amps well into the 21st century.
DrG said:
Linn, Jeff Rowland...
dave
Circlotron said:What I find interesting is that the LM3875 has two NPN output transistors - a throwback to the bad old days of the early 70's!
I believe you'll find that to be the case in pretty much all of the monolithic power opamps, not just the 3875. They can't readily produce high power NPN and PNP transistors on the same slab of silicon so they typically use quasi-complimentary output stages. Back in the 70s if memory serves, high power NPN germanium and PNP silicon transistors weren't readily available hence the popularity of quasi-complimentary power amplifiers in the 70s.
se
DrG
You may be interested to look at several high-end amps using chips, some of them described on this board. Of course even high-end manufactirers are cheap-skates and would use anything to cut production costs. The insides of J Rowland Concentra look so uninspiring (parallel 3886, 3310 volume, cheap caps) that i have a hard time imagining it really sounds good. What is remarkable about a minimal IGC is the really low number of passive components which allows the diyer to use the best there is. Building a class A amp with BG caps will require real determination 🙂 Another remarkable point is the opportunity to P2P wire it and have precise star wiring on both PS and ground. Not to mention the really short and simple feedback path. This allows the little amp to sound a lot more coherent than almost any other amp and my points of reference are feedback free SET amps. Of course all this is true only in the context of low power/simple loads and musical tastes which do not overstress the bass region.
BTW D'Agostino's KSA100 which has been discussed here is hardly a pinnacle of amp design.
You may be interested to look at several high-end amps using chips, some of them described on this board. Of course even high-end manufactirers are cheap-skates and would use anything to cut production costs. The insides of J Rowland Concentra look so uninspiring (parallel 3886, 3310 volume, cheap caps) that i have a hard time imagining it really sounds good. What is remarkable about a minimal IGC is the really low number of passive components which allows the diyer to use the best there is. Building a class A amp with BG caps will require real determination 🙂 Another remarkable point is the opportunity to P2P wire it and have precise star wiring on both PS and ground. Not to mention the really short and simple feedback path. This allows the little amp to sound a lot more coherent than almost any other amp and my points of reference are feedback free SET amps. Of course all this is true only in the context of low power/simple loads and musical tastes which do not overstress the bass region.
BTW D'Agostino's KSA100 which has been discussed here is hardly a pinnacle of amp design.
While I have not built a gainclone as of yet, (although I have ordered the chips today, hehe) I do have a mass produced LM3886 intagrated in my possesion and I love it dearly. When I lived in NYC I used to visit a couple high end stores alot. Hell got offered a job a few times by one, but desided to stay in computers so I could afford my hobby. While I LOVE Krell, ML, etc, I simply cannot afford such equipment right now. (damn cheating wife and divorce) I have heard them many many times, as well as other ver high end equipment. (Drool, VTL 1kw monoblocks, Krell $20k preamp\CD, Grand Utopias.)
No amp is going to come close to that kind of performance unless your willing to drop $100k+. No SS, Tube, or chip should even be compared.
My chip amp does have something that I dont find very often.Open clear soundstage, great dynamics, lifelike voices, etc. And thats comparing it to other amps with my same speakers, sources, etc. And thats what makes me want to make a clone. I've looked into building a Aleph, but why? I can get wonderful results by saving a TON of money, manhours, etc, to get the same results. Your comments remind me of people who drop a ton of money on a nice V8 sports car and look down on those sports cars with a 6cyl. Guess what? While not all 6's can match, there are a lot that can and outdo. M3, Skyline, Supra. No they dont have that posh " I drive a Porshe" feeling that men suffering from certain "inadiquacies" have, but they still can perform with the best of them. It;s all in what you want. Show or go.
No amp is going to come close to that kind of performance unless your willing to drop $100k+. No SS, Tube, or chip should even be compared.
My chip amp does have something that I dont find very often.Open clear soundstage, great dynamics, lifelike voices, etc. And thats comparing it to other amps with my same speakers, sources, etc. And thats what makes me want to make a clone. I've looked into building a Aleph, but why? I can get wonderful results by saving a TON of money, manhours, etc, to get the same results. Your comments remind me of people who drop a ton of money on a nice V8 sports car and look down on those sports cars with a 6cyl. Guess what? While not all 6's can match, there are a lot that can and outdo. M3, Skyline, Supra. No they dont have that posh " I drive a Porshe" feeling that men suffering from certain "inadiquacies" have, but they still can perform with the best of them. It;s all in what you want. Show or go.
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