Dave the bass said:If there's a cab out here in DIY-land that can maintain the everything the little fonkens do but add a bigger focused bottom end but uses that lovely little 127 EN driver then please point me to themI don't want to resort to sub's and multidriver speakers again.
AdamThorne said:
Adam,
)if you want to start a thread i can move the relevant posts into that thread)
I have been pretty mum about the FonkenWoofs (there are 2 different ones built so far). We have been working for some time to find a helper woofer that doesn't get in the way, and then an XO on top of that.
I've been a mostly FR guy for a loonng time, believing that it was important that the critical midband be covered by a wide range driver. In the past this was usually an electrostat with help in the bass. An epiphany a number of years ago got me playing with single FR drivers, and we've been working to get what we can out of them. But anyway you slice it, getting a single driver to do it all will leave you with a compromise somewhere.
So in the end, we need to compromise a bit and help the FR out a but. The easiest place to do this is in the bottom where wavelengths are long and the ear is less sensitive to XOs so after getting the Fonken to do things as well as it does (excellent midrange, decent top, good bass as far as it goes & cheap). We have tried many times, with many boxes to coax more out of the relatively inexpensive 4-5" drivers that seem to be where the full-range sweet-spot is, but an oft heard review "they are good, but they aren't a Fonken, had us set off in a couple directions to improve it.
One is the addition of woofs. The SDX7, with a necessary bit of tweaking, turns out to be a very good match. It is capable of respnse to ~950 Hz and then nosedives (effectively giving it an acoustic 2nd order roll-off), Being XBL it prodices bass like you would expect from a larger driver (at the price of some efficiency) and it really thrives in a (relatively small) sealed box. This last makes it extremely versatile, and also a pretty good choice for a TL that pushes towards aperiodic.
To give an idea, the single SDX7 in the 17 litre sealed, sims to an F10 of 40 Hz. In room, with the Beringer DCX2496 and 5 dB of boost at 25 hz, it measured flat to 25 Hz). The stock Beringer sounds like crap thou, the PLLXO at 250 Hz, 1st order on the woofer, droopy 2nd on the µFonken turns out MUCH more listenable. It also tended to validate the theory of using an asymetrical XO to help with baffle step. I need to pull out the measure gear and see to tweaking this PLLXO a bit more, in theory i probably have a bit of a hole between 250 & 350.
With the Fonken & the fonkenWoofTL XO can be much lower. I had an ancient Ace Audio active XO kicking around which we dusted off and put in just so we could play music, and it surprised the H out of us by not being intrusve. It is a pretty standard SK topology althou the filter values are a but strange with -- as best we can figure -- a not quite Bessel roll-off. It has been modestly uprated with OPA213x opAmps, better RCAs and the elco coupling caps replaced. Being much more livable than expected i have procrastinated a bit on further XO development. Next up is a PLLXO similar to that used with the µFonken.
The goal with the XO is to go no harm, which has always been an issue i've had in the past. The Fonken is good to ~70 Hz, a 2nd order at a 100 Hz is going to give just enuff roll-off to help with the midrange but not findementaly get in the way. My thinking has been trading off the various orders between 1-3, my experience with higher orders has me avoiding them.
Sims of the fonkenWoofTL have a modeled F10 of ~30 Hz.
The other direction we have been heading is toward more expensive drivers. The FonkenFX, and uberFonken (FX120 & F120A) are under development. These promise an extra 1/2 octave of bass (in a bigger box, and with some loss of efficiency). Extended comparisons between stock FX120 and FE127eN have us pretty stocked on these. The stock FX120 is free from some of the nigglies inherent in the FE127 (the 7k peak which hasn't been completely tamed), but lacks the downward dynamic range of that the treatment brings to the FE127, Overall the preferences of those who listened was to give the FE127eN the edge. The FX120 is being treated as we speak, and if it gains as much as its more expensive brethern, the F120A, did under Bud's hand, we could have it nicely improving on the FE127eN.
Now these will still benefit from helper woofers, and derivatives of the same FonkenWoofs can be fit, with the added benefit that an even lower XO can bring.
The SDX7 isn't cheap, $200/pr (i do the minimum mods, and match as best i can) or $300/pr for the fully treated ones. For most rooms a sngle per side is adequate, larger rooms benefit from more (it is theorectically possible to fit 4 under a Fonken and still maintain some measure of cosmetic matching).
We are playing with a less expensive alternative -- a 5.5" Silver Flute -- which is promising.
dave
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Giovani pointed this out to me... http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180259312673
If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, i'm flattered (but i will reserve my comments on the cosmetics)
dave
If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, i'm flattered (but i will reserve my comments on the cosmetics)
dave
Attachments
Dave the bass said:
If there's a cab out here in DIY-land that can maintain the everything the little fonkens do but add a bigger focused bottom end but uses that lovely little 127 EN driver then please point me to them
DTB
I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss a sub out of hand, the Fonkens integrate beautifully with my sub. Same articulate and tuneful bass, just a bit deeper and with a little more authority. It doesn't take much to round things out
john blackburn said:
Thanks John
Mr Snake has been with us for a couple of years now and at different times during the year he wears different hats reflecting the seasonal changes.He was an 'art project' out daughter did a few years ago... she's now got a degree in Digital Animation Techniques :lol:
dublin78 said:
Thanks Mr78, thats a good tip. I'll have a look around and see what's out there.
DTB
planet10 said:
Ooooerr.
ped said:
I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss a sub out of hand, the Fonkens integrate beautifully with my sub. Same articulate and tuneful bass, just a bit deeper and with a little more authority. It doesn't take much to round things out
Yup, I understand where you're coming from Mr Ped, I'm not just dissmissing them out of hand but it's worthwhile backtracking a little bit here and remembering why I built these in the first place. It was after my partner suggested we have a little system to take away on holidays with us, hence the want/need to build a small FR speaker system to put in the boot (trunk?) of a car. I think taking a sub away on holiday everytime is getting a bit mad
and I don't want to have a bigger car either!!!!What has actually happened is that in a couple of areas I've found the little 127/Fonken set up does things my MLTL's don't AND vice versa. So impressed with the sound are we that I'm gonna live with them for a while in place of the MLTL's then swap back, it's all part of my education into what speakers make what sounds and more importantly what suits ME in MY home the best.
Don't get me wrong, I really love what these little speakers are doing. So much so in fact that I'm toying with going further into the 4" FR driver/ cab thing and might build either a 127 based Metronome or a 127 Harvey cab for use in our lounge. I heard Scotts big double mouthed horns with a tiny 126 or 127 driver at the first very DIY fest I went to here in the UK about 18 months ago (see, i told you I was a newbie!!!). That sound must have made a deep impression on me because I'm hearing that level of detail and imaging in the little Fonkens in my Lounge.
It's all healthy stuff this DIY malarky innit
I'm very grateful for having you guys and others guiding me and pointing things out.DTB
Hi
If you are going to all the effort of building a pair of the larger cabs, like the Hravey, the Mikasa, or Metronome, why not think about using a FX120, or even F120A?
Planet 10 is experimenting with eN versions. It is likely that they will provide further refinement over the FE127eN.
I have the first pair of FX120eN, and am eagerly awaiting Dave's completion and report/review.
Don't be put off by the lower sensitivity. The Xmax of the FX120 is 2mm, so they should provide similar sound levels.
If you are going to all the effort of building a pair of the larger cabs, like the Hravey, the Mikasa, or Metronome, why not think about using a FX120, or even F120A?
Planet 10 is experimenting with eN versions. It is likely that they will provide further refinement over the FE127eN.
I have the first pair of FX120eN, and am eagerly awaiting Dave's completion and report/review.
Don't be put off by the lower sensitivity. The Xmax of the FX120 is 2mm, so they should provide similar sound levels.
dublin78 said:
Yeah, I could do Mr78. I know nothing about the FX120/F120A drivers you mention TBH. I really am a newbie but I'll have a read-up. I only built the MLTL's at Christmas and that was my first experience of eNabling and the world of Fostex FR drivers and speaker construction....
DTB
planet10 said:
Awww...thanks for the tip-off Dave but I'd already decided to use the 1/4 sheet or so I had left over from the Fonken build. A chum had offered me a pair of QED stands but they're only 18" high so I resorted to a spot of DIY in the end.
I'm making a really basic sorta column stand.
Here's the middle bit that'll be filled with sand...
...and here's a lash-up while the glue is drying...
...and here's my nicely bevelled edge that the little Fonkens sit on top of, all at 45degrees to blend in with the little beauties
They'll sit about 26" from the ground. A nice neat way of using up the left over ply (it had started to warp too
).Stands and speakers out of 1 sheet of 8x4. Huzah!
DTB
planet10 said:
No-one is more eager than I to hear the results of the F120A in the "Fonken-steen" enclosure (my own nick-name) , and for those who listen at my levels, (on average less than 80dB) the real-world sensitivity difference from FE127 is a minor concern.
However, the cost is another matter. Using Madisound's single lot retail pricing as a yardstick (YMMV), the FX120 is 2 1/4x and the F120A just over 5x the price of the FE127E. Factor in shipping expense at almost 5lbs each for the F120A vs approx 2lbs per pair for the FE127, plus any aftermarket modifications, and the big-boys represent an investment that's more than just a DIYer's "wonder what that'd sound like" weekend project.
Scott/DaveD/ChrisB, if I was a girly I'd want to have your Baby's....
They're brilliant. I've spent a week living with them now and they still knock me out everytime I sit down and listen to them. Last night I was knackered from a mornings graft on the stands (pics later) and a 5 hour sesh down the skatepark, I settled down and listened to 5 LP's one after the other, Steely Dan 'Aja', Level 42 'A World Machine', Nick Drake 'Five Leaves Left', Creedance Clearwater Revival 'Chronicle' and Joan Armourplating 'eponymous'. Every track I was rivetted, they're just SO 'alive' in their character. The top end is so focussed and precise, I love that. The upper mids have that crystal clarity I've heard in other whopping great SET amps and I'm getting a simillar effect/sound from a breadboarded C3g->6B4G amp. The bass is solid and very tight as I said before and even a self-confessed bass-head like me can live without that low end ooomph after spending a week with them quite happily. I do miss the bass that the MLTL's produced but its a happy trade-off with the between-speaker imaging that the little Fonkens produce. Both the MLTL's and the Fonkens are great 'sounds' IMO. I can (and do) live either of 'em.
Now then... if the Saburo's can deliver the gorgeous mid and top that the Fonkens make but with the bum-end extension that the MLTL's have BUT with Fonken-tightness both the MLTL's and the Fonkens could be in trouble
Chuffed is the word of the week!
DTB
They're brilliant. I've spent a week living with them now and they still knock me out everytime I sit down and listen to them. Last night I was knackered from a mornings graft on the stands (pics later) and a 5 hour sesh down the skatepark, I settled down and listened to 5 LP's one after the other, Steely Dan 'Aja', Level 42 'A World Machine', Nick Drake 'Five Leaves Left', Creedance Clearwater Revival 'Chronicle' and Joan Armourplating 'eponymous'. Every track I was rivetted, they're just SO 'alive' in their character. The top end is so focussed and precise, I love that. The upper mids have that crystal clarity I've heard in other whopping great SET amps and I'm getting a simillar effect/sound from a breadboarded C3g->6B4G amp. The bass is solid and very tight as I said before and even a self-confessed bass-head like me can live without that low end ooomph after spending a week with them quite happily. I do miss the bass that the MLTL's produced but its a happy trade-off with the between-speaker imaging that the little Fonkens produce. Both the MLTL's and the Fonkens are great 'sounds' IMO. I can (and do) live either of 'em.
Now then... if the Saburo's can deliver the gorgeous mid and top that the Fonkens make but with the bum-end extension that the MLTL's have BUT with Fonken-tightness both the MLTL's and the Fonkens could be in trouble
Chuffed is the word of the week!
DTB
planet10 said:Chuffed it is then...
I had the thoy pass thru my head from the earler picture of the ML-TL Fonken Stands... a PLLXO at ~100Hz with the ML-TLs providing bass support might be interesting....
dave
But...but...but.... that means more than one driver per channel....Witch!!! Burn him My little brain couldn't cope with sound coming from 4 cab's at once surely !!!Ok, I'll bite. Whats a PLLXO? Phase-locked-loop Crossover?
Still dunno though.... will I be pounced-on by the Audio Police? <hides behind curtain>
Still Chuffed BTW. The stands are coming on nicely, I'll post some pics later. I found some Kiln dried sand in a local DIY shop and have approx 12Kg's in each column. They feel solid and sturdy.
DTB
Dave the bass said:
Passive Line Level XO
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
essentially, you can achieve part of this function by adding a cap/resistor network at the amps' input terminals, or adjusting the value of the coupling cap of a tube amp.
Several years ago I tried that on a pair of Decware Zen amps used in a bi-amped system. This particular amp model has 2 pairs of input jacks - it was easy to modify one pair to operate as pass-filtered, and usurp the function of the existing top mounted bias adjust toggle switch to allow for selection between filtered and "full-range" operation.
Although you need a pair of outputs from your pre-amp, or quality signal splitting Y-cords, the actual XO is completely self-contained. I'd think the signal degradation from the couple of inches of wire and extra solder connections would still be far less than that of external crossover components and interconnects - not to mention the huge savings in cost.
However, not as flexible for tuning.
As promised, piccies of the Fonken stands using up the bit's of 12mm ply left over...
Very basic column stand, the bottom's are glued and screwed on then the upright is full of Kiln-dried sand...
and then I glued and screwed the tops on...
All of which was left to dry for 24hrs at a time make them uber-strong. I've routed the edges of the columns at 45 degrees just to make them look nicer and built up the height of the actual platform the speaker sits on to get the desired 26" height.
A coat of Danish oil (with an Antique pine stain) has them looking like this tonight....
and...
Getting there.
DTB
Very basic column stand, the bottom's are glued and screwed on then the upright is full of Kiln-dried sand...
and then I glued and screwed the tops on...
All of which was left to dry for 24hrs at a time make them uber-strong. I've routed the edges of the columns at 45 degrees just to make them look nicer and built up the height of the actual platform the speaker sits on to get the desired 26" height.
A coat of Danish oil (with an Antique pine stain) has them looking like this tonight....
and...
Getting there.
DTB
Thanks for the PLLXO explanation ChrisB. Ooohhh, we're getting tech with filters and things, I dunno....are we loosing the plot
I love the whole simplicity of the DHT SET -> single driver FR cab thang.
FWIW I run a passive pre with a shunt wired ALP's pot before the power amp. Very basic but it works for me, maybe I'll try the PLLXO sometime. I have a few other DIY power amps knocking about Chez Bass.
I'm being wooed by the Saburo cab too at the mo, I'm thinking of building that in the winter to further my experience of the small FR driver sound. It's been a revelation hearing what a small driver in the right cab can do in my own home, at various DIY meet's they never seem to perform that well in front of 10-20 folk in a big/huge room but in home surroundings they're astonishing IMO. Hence the want to build more and listen to other cab's which has led me to Scott's Saburo design, relatively straight forward but big.
Good this DIY malarkey innit
DTB
I love the whole simplicity of the DHT SET -> single driver FR cab thang.
FWIW I run a passive pre with a shunt wired ALP's pot before the power amp. Very basic but it works for me, maybe I'll try the PLLXO sometime. I have a few other DIY power amps knocking about Chez Bass.
I'm being wooed by the Saburo cab too at the mo, I'm thinking of building that in the winter to further my experience of the small FR driver sound. It's been a revelation hearing what a small driver in the right cab can do in my own home, at various DIY meet's they never seem to perform that well in front of 10-20 folk in a big/huge room but in home surroundings they're astonishing IMO. Hence the want to build more and listen to other cab's which has led me to Scott's Saburo design, relatively straight forward but big.
Good this DIY malarkey innit
DTB
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