Hi all,
I just acquired a weston 779 analyzer from the 1940's. It is railroad grade. Its a beauty. I love the way it works... so much, that I'm afraid to use it. I still have bad habits as my DMM is so forgiving even though it drives me nuts!
So, I'm looking for a good analog multimeter. My thoughts are an old military grade VOM in a metal box. Durable and capable of high voltage and something I can repair when I screw up. I read that the military had the best magnets for the coil meter.
I also have an opportunity to get a weston 980 mark II.
I'm looking for something fun to use, accurate and built to last a lifetime. Railroad and military were built for this...
Any thoughts?
I just acquired a weston 779 analyzer from the 1940's. It is railroad grade. Its a beauty. I love the way it works... so much, that I'm afraid to use it. I still have bad habits as my DMM is so forgiving even though it drives me nuts!
So, I'm looking for a good analog multimeter. My thoughts are an old military grade VOM in a metal box. Durable and capable of high voltage and something I can repair when I screw up. I read that the military had the best magnets for the coil meter.
I also have an opportunity to get a weston 980 mark II.
I'm looking for something fun to use, accurate and built to last a lifetime. Railroad and military were built for this...
Any thoughts?
I'm not sure on that particular model but many of them are low impedance
and not as good for circuit testing, a Vacuum Tube Voltmeter tends to be
a lot better for using in a live circuit as it does not load the circuit.
Digital meters work well but sometimes an analog meter it the right tool.
That being said Low impedance meters are actually a pit better for
testing some things like batteries since it puts more of a load on them.
I have a VTVM, a few digitalis and a few analogs,
Like having various hammers, they all have their uses and right place.
and not as good for circuit testing, a Vacuum Tube Voltmeter tends to be
a lot better for using in a live circuit as it does not load the circuit.
Digital meters work well but sometimes an analog meter it the right tool.
That being said Low impedance meters are actually a pit better for
testing some things like batteries since it puts more of a load on them.
I have a VTVM, a few digitalis and a few analogs,
Like having various hammers, they all have their uses and right place.
Analog multi-meters have their place, which these days is mostly sitting on a shelf and looking pretty. They do have their uses, and in some cases may be a little easier to interpret with very noisy/variable signals. 😀
Seriously they load down the circuits they measure and are inherently much less accurate than any decent DMM.
I have several 30 yr old Fluke digital meters like the 8010 and 8050 as well as a much newer Keithley 2002, and a couple of truly cheesy handhelds which nonetheless have held up well. I expect most if not all of these meters to outlive me.
Look for Fluke, HP/Agilent/Keysight, and Keithley DMMs.
I have a very vintage Simpson 260 (early 1960s) which works just fine, this is what I would recommend as an all around analog workhorse. Still made surprisingly, and not cheap. I cannot remember the last time I used it.
Analog meters are cool and have their place so get the one you like too.. (it's all good)
Seriously they load down the circuits they measure and are inherently much less accurate than any decent DMM.
I have several 30 yr old Fluke digital meters like the 8010 and 8050 as well as a much newer Keithley 2002, and a couple of truly cheesy handhelds which nonetheless have held up well. I expect most if not all of these meters to outlive me.
Look for Fluke, HP/Agilent/Keysight, and Keithley DMMs.
I have a very vintage Simpson 260 (early 1960s) which works just fine, this is what I would recommend as an all around analog workhorse. Still made surprisingly, and not cheap. I cannot remember the last time I used it.
Analog meters are cool and have their place so get the one you like too.. (it's all good)
I tend to agree with Harry. That old Weston like the Simpsons are low input impedance. You want a high input impedance around ten megohms. This means either a vacuum tube voltmeter or a FET based multimeter. RCA had a nice one and Heathkit also had some. RCA WM98C (tube) or the 510A (transistor). Heathkit IM5228 or even the little IM17. I mention these because I have owned and used them. You have asked for analog but there are others much better of course.
Edit: Another good little analog multimeter is the HP 427A. Make sure it has the AC mains option. Otherwise it's a 22V battery only.
Edit: Another good little analog multimeter is the HP 427A. Make sure it has the AC mains option. Otherwise it's a 22V battery only.
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> Vintage Analog Military Multimeters Any Good?
Most of my life, I would walk a mile to get a meter like that.
I remember my first, and my second, digital meters. I'd rather have a good passive needle meter for most work. (A VTVM is better for all but small V or absolute precision.)
The real killer advantage is measuring forward voltage drop on diodes. Use the Ohm meter but read a Voltage scale. You can tell a diode from a resistor because a diode will read near the same voltage on several ranges.
Don't slam the needle constantly. When you make a connection, watch/listen and switch-down if needed.
I'll be danged. This IS a railway meter! Railways were installing "carrier" systems to get more voice channels on existing phone lines. (They got this from Bell, but Bell had its own meters.)
The 779 sure smells like a revised 772. http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/weston/772/
> low impedance
This, like many good needle-meters, is 20K/V. This means the 250V range is 5Meg, in sight of a VTVM or some DMMs.
The $9.99 needle-meter in the auto-parts store is 1K/V and much lower impedance. The movement needs about all the current that small-audio tubes draw, so loading is huge.
Yes, if you are looking for stray grid leakage on the 2.5V range the 772/779 is only 50K impedance. I recall the trick was to watch the plate voltage while you put a short on the grid circuit. If it changed, there was leakage.
Your modern meters have *shrouded plugs/jacks* so you can not get a finger on the live wire at the meter. This is bare-naked phone pin-plugs. BE CAREFUL.
Always beware the Current settings! Any meter can be blown-up if you poke a solid voltage source while the meter is in Current.
If you do find a 15V battery, Beware the Rx10,000 ohmmeter range around semiconductor junctions. It is probably OK because the 227K internal resistor limits current to 0.066mA, but many books warn against this.
It appears the R range may pass _1_Amp_ ?? That would be too much for small diodes and transistors.
Most of my life, I would walk a mile to get a meter like that.
I remember my first, and my second, digital meters. I'd rather have a good passive needle meter for most work. (A VTVM is better for all but small V or absolute precision.)
The real killer advantage is measuring forward voltage drop on diodes. Use the Ohm meter but read a Voltage scale. You can tell a diode from a resistor because a diode will read near the same voltage on several ranges.
Don't slam the needle constantly. When you make a connection, watch/listen and switch-down if needed.
I'll be danged. This IS a railway meter! Railways were installing "carrier" systems to get more voice channels on existing phone lines. (They got this from Bell, but Bell had its own meters.)
The 779 sure smells like a revised 772. http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/weston/772/
> low impedance
This, like many good needle-meters, is 20K/V. This means the 250V range is 5Meg, in sight of a VTVM or some DMMs.
The $9.99 needle-meter in the auto-parts store is 1K/V and much lower impedance. The movement needs about all the current that small-audio tubes draw, so loading is huge.
Yes, if you are looking for stray grid leakage on the 2.5V range the 772/779 is only 50K impedance. I recall the trick was to watch the plate voltage while you put a short on the grid circuit. If it changed, there was leakage.
Your modern meters have *shrouded plugs/jacks* so you can not get a finger on the live wire at the meter. This is bare-naked phone pin-plugs. BE CAREFUL.
Always beware the Current settings! Any meter can be blown-up if you poke a solid voltage source while the meter is in Current.
If you do find a 15V battery, Beware the Rx10,000 ohmmeter range around semiconductor junctions. It is probably OK because the 227K internal resistor limits current to 0.066mA, but many books warn against this.
It appears the R range may pass _1_Amp_ ?? That would be too much for small diodes and transistors.
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Nebraska Surplus has the meter movements at fair price.
Lab Standards & Instruments: Wood Box Meters
Ah, the 0dB marks are wrong for your box: based on an older standard. Still you get all your Ohms and DC and AC, and can head-correct the dB.
Lab Standards & Instruments: Wood Box Meters
Ah, the 0dB marks are wrong for your box: based on an older standard. Still you get all your Ohms and DC and AC, and can head-correct the dB.
Thank you all.
I fixed a RCA Volt-Ohmyst Junior. I didn't like it as it jumped all over the place with low voltage. Plus I had to make leads... unfortunately, it took a fell and broke the face cover.
PRR... I took the plunge for this when my lil' brother told me the quality that railway watches and equipment had to be. I knew it went for $151.00 usd in 1946 which is equivalent to $2000.00usd today.
This meter is the smoothest movement I've seen...stopping instantly with no bounce. A pure joy. It made the VTVM look clumsy.
I do not intend to do current measurements... I will calculate them out.
You are right... I'm going for 50uA, 20k per volt meters. I here the 50k per volt are more fragile and loose magnetism over time... All magnets can... but I guess the best magnet materials were used for the military, and I assume Railway as well. The lesser quality was left using lower quality magnets which are more apt to loose magnetism.
I fixed a RCA Volt-Ohmyst Junior. I didn't like it as it jumped all over the place with low voltage. Plus I had to make leads... unfortunately, it took a fell and broke the face cover.
PRR... I took the plunge for this when my lil' brother told me the quality that railway watches and equipment had to be. I knew it went for $151.00 usd in 1946 which is equivalent to $2000.00usd today.
This meter is the smoothest movement I've seen...stopping instantly with no bounce. A pure joy. It made the VTVM look clumsy.
I do not intend to do current measurements... I will calculate them out.
You are right... I'm going for 50uA, 20k per volt meters. I here the 50k per volt are more fragile and loose magnetism over time... All magnets can... but I guess the best magnet materials were used for the military, and I assume Railway as well. The lesser quality was left using lower quality magnets which are more apt to loose magnetism.
> best magnet materials were used for the military
My impression is that Simpson (and Weston) made the BEST meter movements, and set the standards for Military and notably the VU meter for radio network land-line monitoring.
That jumpy RCA should have been OK (but not a Simpson). Dirty contacts and old-sticky movement are possible.
I have a Simpson passive 100K/V here, and I don't really fear it being more fragile than higher uA meters. I know this type was sold in ruggedized case for field work. I think some of these you "must" switch to OFF for transport; this shorts the movement so it bounces less in the back of the Jeep.
My impression is that Simpson (and Weston) made the BEST meter movements, and set the standards for Military and notably the VU meter for radio network land-line monitoring.
That jumpy RCA should have been OK (but not a Simpson). Dirty contacts and old-sticky movement are possible.
I have a Simpson passive 100K/V here, and I don't really fear it being more fragile than higher uA meters. I know this type was sold in ruggedized case for field work. I think some of these you "must" switch to OFF for transport; this shorts the movement so it bounces less in the back of the Jeep.
I have a Weston 779. It was my Great Uncle's. It is now a show piece on my shelf.
I also have a Simpson 260 I use occasionally.
I also have a Simpson 260 I use occasionally.
Hello,
You should look only for HP analog voltmeters.
Agilent was created after the split from HP T&M and computer.
And, they don't have any analog multimeters.
Same thing with Keysight, with once more, split from T&M and medical.
Old analog multimeters are good, as long as they are calibrated !
Long life to Keysight.
You should look only for HP analog voltmeters.
Agilent was created after the split from HP T&M and computer.
And, they don't have any analog multimeters.
Same thing with Keysight, with once more, split from T&M and medical.
Old analog multimeters are good, as long as they are calibrated !
Long life to Keysight.
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Thank you again PRR,
I'm looking at a Weston 772, TS-352 or a PSM-6.
The Weston 772 is the oldest and first introduced in 1937.
The TS-352 ME -9/a was used during the Korean war and Vietnam conflict.
The PSM-6 was used in the military during the 60's and even into the 90's.
Any thoughts on which would be best? All are around $50
I just got a Simpson 443 for $5.00, but the gauge is so small & it needs some fixing.
I'm looking at a Weston 772, TS-352 or a PSM-6.
The Weston 772 is the oldest and first introduced in 1937.
The TS-352 ME -9/a was used during the Korean war and Vietnam conflict.
The PSM-6 was used in the military during the 60's and even into the 90's.
Any thoughts on which would be best? All are around $50
I just got a Simpson 443 for $5.00, but the gauge is so small & it needs some fixing.
The best movements were made by Sensitive Research. They still exist in a new form and are still the source for electrostatic voltmeters. They made meters with .1% accuracy which had 10" long mirrored scales for lab use. They even made a "universal meter" Sensitive Research Universal Poly ranger Model USP 28 Ranges AC - DC that
It is a wonderful collectors item. It even has a thermal converter for accurate RMS measurements. The scales were all hand drawn. However these are not general purpose service instruments. Somewhere here I have a manual and catalog for Sensitive Research from the mid 1950's.
The original Fluke meter had an analog meter for a readout with 4-5 knobs for the digits and was the go to for accurate voltage measurements for many years since it had an infinite input impedance at null, just like the lab null pot setup but in a single box.
The HP meters were really nicely made. They made all electronic meters early on and instruments like the 427 had 100 Meg input impedance. They were all expensive and really industrial/military market products, not for general purpose service use. The HP meter scales were also individually drawn but by a semi-automated machine. There is an article on it in an old HP magazine.
Except for the electrostatic voltmeter, high end retro audio and really cheap service meters analog meters are really historical. Automotive indicators and switchpanel instruments are a different specific application where analog makes sense.
Cheap DMM's are not better really than cheap analog meters were. Fragile, not too accurate and limiting when you need performance. Since the premium instruments were all made for a long service life a good used Fluke/Agilent/Keithley will be a better investment that most anything else.
It is a wonderful collectors item. It even has a thermal converter for accurate RMS measurements. The scales were all hand drawn. However these are not general purpose service instruments. Somewhere here I have a manual and catalog for Sensitive Research from the mid 1950's.
The original Fluke meter had an analog meter for a readout with 4-5 knobs for the digits and was the go to for accurate voltage measurements for many years since it had an infinite input impedance at null, just like the lab null pot setup but in a single box.
The HP meters were really nicely made. They made all electronic meters early on and instruments like the 427 had 100 Meg input impedance. They were all expensive and really industrial/military market products, not for general purpose service use. The HP meter scales were also individually drawn but by a semi-automated machine. There is an article on it in an old HP magazine.
Except for the electrostatic voltmeter, high end retro audio and really cheap service meters analog meters are really historical. Automotive indicators and switchpanel instruments are a different specific application where analog makes sense.
Cheap DMM's are not better really than cheap analog meters were. Fragile, not too accurate and limiting when you need performance. Since the premium instruments were all made for a long service life a good used Fluke/Agilent/Keithley will be a better investment that most anything else.
Thank you 1Audio,
The digital meters I have used seem to bounce around measuring dc resistance on transformers.
I will use the meters on vacuum tube design. I confess that there is something different when using vintage parts and equipment. Well Built vintage equipment is a joy to use... it feels more solid than digital... I know it's not a scientific reason... just preference by now. However, I did not like the RCA Jr. Volt-Ohmyst vtvm...
The digital meters I have used seem to bounce around measuring dc resistance on transformers.
I will use the meters on vacuum tube design. I confess that there is something different when using vintage parts and equipment. Well Built vintage equipment is a joy to use... it feels more solid than digital... I know it's not a scientific reason... just preference by now. However, I did not like the RCA Jr. Volt-Ohmyst vtvm...
Measuring DCR in inductors like transformers is quite difficult since they store current and get the autoranging going nuts. Best tool is a good bridge. More vintage stuff. . . Look for an ESI with the magic eye tube.
Here is a link to the HP meter scale marking system: http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1961-03.pdf it was 1961 so this was pretty edge of the art then.
I have one here that I need to repair, had belonged to an IBM repair tech for years. I hurt it one day while checking for power in the dark, and the meter was in current mode🙁
It's pretty nice for what it is, is IBM branded, possibly made by another company I'm thinking.
It's pretty nice for what it is, is IBM branded, possibly made by another company I'm thinking.
This is all very interesting...plus I have been opened up to a different type measuring meter. The Potentiometer meter with galvanometers. I know they can take more time to find the values, but how are they as far as a measuring device?
I found some on Ebay for voltages / current at an obtainable price.
Theoretically, I could build my own Wheatstone bridge for resistance. If I were to make multipliers of 1- 100,000 using 10X steps, I could draw a scale of 1-10 on a curve around the potentiometer knob. I almost never go above 1 Meg.
The Galvanometer wouldn't have to be large. I would have to figure out the voltage for the power supply. If I keep the voltage below 1/4 watt, I can use .01% resistors I have access to.
May not be worth it using it to measure resistors already in a circuit, but it would be worth it to measure dc resistance in tranformers and chokes.
I found some on Ebay for voltages / current at an obtainable price.
Theoretically, I could build my own Wheatstone bridge for resistance. If I were to make multipliers of 1- 100,000 using 10X steps, I could draw a scale of 1-10 on a curve around the potentiometer knob. I almost never go above 1 Meg.
The Galvanometer wouldn't have to be large. I would have to figure out the voltage for the power supply. If I keep the voltage below 1/4 watt, I can use .01% resistors I have access to.
May not be worth it using it to measure resistors already in a circuit, but it would be worth it to measure dc resistance in tranformers and chokes.
That's all standards lab stuff usually used to measure a voltage reference or a precision resistor standard. They are slow and very inconvienent but have very good basic accuracy. Figure about 5 minutes to measure a DC voltage with knob twirling and stabilizing on the galvo. Using a mirror gavlo for the highest sensitivity. However once I read that NIST switched to using 6 digit DVM instead of galvo's I realized its not that fruitful. Doing it once is enough to understand. The Fluke differential meter Fluke 891A DC Differential Voltmeter | eBay is a potetiometric divider with an electronic galvo in a box.
If you are trying to measure the DCR of an inductor or a transformer a good RLC bridge will give that info. Big inductors are a real challenge to measure with the stored energy. You also need to be careful when disconnecting the current source since you can get a huge inductive kick when you do.
If you are looking for turns ratio then AC in and AC out would be best.
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