@Ro808 Reducing ASR to a SINAD cult is very short sighted. They do test a lot more than that. And dac chips are transparant today. The difference between dac's is mostly in the analog part and psu, not what chip they use. The old PCM dacs were not transparent often, and some like that more. But it's not that modern dac's (chinese or not) are crap, they are technical superior to many older, even very expensive ones, and that in anything we can measure.
It's probally just like tube amps, they are not as good as solid state amps on technical level, but many (inclusive myself) love them and often prefer them over clean solid state amps. And that preference is ok, whatever float your boat (and there ASR often goes wrong by forcing their view on others). I know that site, i'm very active there. But that does not mean i follow the hardcore objective tendency of that site. I have tube and class A amps, and most of my speakers are single driver fullrange speakers. I know they are not ASR approved, but i don't care and enjoy them. And if you prefer the old PCM chips, then you should not care what ASR says about it (certainly not in a diy setting).
It's probally just like tube amps, they are not as good as solid state amps on technical level, but many (inclusive myself) love them and often prefer them over clean solid state amps. And that preference is ok, whatever float your boat (and there ASR often goes wrong by forcing their view on others). I know that site, i'm very active there. But that does not mean i follow the hardcore objective tendency of that site. I have tube and class A amps, and most of my speakers are single driver fullrange speakers. I know they are not ASR approved, but i don't care and enjoy them. And if you prefer the old PCM chips, then you should not care what ASR says about it (certainly not in a diy setting).
If you believe that AP measurements at the outputs alone are sufficient to rate the (perceived) quality of a product, then there's some (deeper) knowledge to be gained.
How would Nelson Pass respond to the statement that his amplifiers are 'not transparent' according to ASR metrics?
How would Nelson Pass respond to the statement that his amplifiers are 'not transparent' according to ASR metrics?
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He did react on that, and recognises that, and says it's deliberate done because his public want that and he tries it to do it the right way (and he does). He also said he could make clean amps if he wants, but prefers not to for subjective reasons (And i think that is valid).
AP measures objective parameters, not something subjective like personal taste that are also valid (something ASR fails to recognise largely). The objective measurements should be a tool to enjoying music, not a goal on it's own. And if you know what and how things work or not work, it can make it easier to find your subjective taste and the system that fits it. And that is often, but certainly not always a low distortion neutral sound.
You need to see ASR as a site with standardised test of the technical specs of a device, not a personal taste advisor. That is the error that many on both sides of the camp make. And on the forum, you also need to keep the profile of the site in mind, but it's a lot better than the snake oil cults on many other sites.
ASR is doing a great job! Most people are not able to form opinion on anything. Younger generation is tech oriented so SINAD is a very important parameter for choosing the device. The result is that anything which was bought before ASR managed to get their hands on it and it resulted in less than stellar or sometimes dismissal of a product goes for much lower prices on second hand market. That's were the "smart money" should go 🙂 You simply can't go wrong buying product dismissed by ASR to have a chance for some pleasant sounds.
The remaining problems with dacs are in the things not measured. Why else would the dacs sound different from one another?
What about measuring random-noise jitter? The way they measure at ASR doesn't show that, but in some dacs you can hear it. What about sensitivity to USB noise from PCs? Its audible often enough. What about sound stage width and depth? That isn't so easily measured with a AP box.
So, the dac manufacturers know what they need to do: Design low-cost dacs optimized for exactly how ASR measures. Nothing else matters if they want to sell lots of dacs.
As long as they are blinded by what they read on ASR, they will never learn what it feels like to have a joyful experience of listening to what suits their personal taste. Their whole life will be filled with suffering and pain...
Even worse, many people keep saying that they can clearly notice a difference between different cables, OPAmp, power supplies, etc. But that site is something else. That site is ripe with bullies.
So, no, they are not doing a great job. ASR are doing a terrible job.
There is a guy who measures things PROPERLY over there, though.... pma from Prague.
amir meaures stuff purely tailored to suit a specifi range of products / manufecturers, who use that site as a priduct placement advertising platform.
"Their whole life will be filled with suffering and pain..."
Is it possible that this is a little exaggerated? 🙂 I mean that is not exactly what I want to experience in a hobby.
Is it possible that this is a little exaggerated? 🙂 I mean that is not exactly what I want to experience in a hobby.
I know this isn't that useful of a comment, but...
I bought two cheap Topping DACs, ASR approved. I use one in my bedroom headphone setup, and the other one in my living room hi-fi. They sound very good to me, for only about $200 US for the both of them. Good FLAC files played through my Raspberry Pi with Moode Audio and these DACs sound slightly better to me than the equivalent CDs played through my old Pioneer Elite SACD player.
So my answer is -- in my opinion -- Yes, I think there are some pretty darn nice cheap Chinese DACs to be had.
However, I think they're only useful if you have an actual need for a standalone DAC.
I'd like to hear the Schiit Modi ($129). I'd be interested to know if that sounds more 'musical' than the Topping DACs. Maybe it does. Anyone here done a subjective comparison?
I bought two cheap Topping DACs, ASR approved. I use one in my bedroom headphone setup, and the other one in my living room hi-fi. They sound very good to me, for only about $200 US for the both of them. Good FLAC files played through my Raspberry Pi with Moode Audio and these DACs sound slightly better to me than the equivalent CDs played through my old Pioneer Elite SACD player.
So my answer is -- in my opinion -- Yes, I think there are some pretty darn nice cheap Chinese DACs to be had.
However, I think they're only useful if you have an actual need for a standalone DAC.
I'd like to hear the Schiit Modi ($129). I'd be interested to know if that sounds more 'musical' than the Topping DACs. Maybe it does. Anyone here done a subjective comparison?
Then you should move away from reducing the whole audio system to a single box do-it-all solution. Even worse.... a box that's powered by an SMPS RF noise-generating factory. I expected so much more from an RF guy... You are an RF guy, right?
They follow the in the industry general accepted (AES) standards, that keep moving forwards. If you think that should be in that standard, you're free to make a case. But it need to have a scientific base to do. And that is where things fail mostly, because a lot of the things you mention are not science based but bias based (that is also proven scientificly).
And sound stage and imaging are not electronics or speaker related, but room and setup related. So that factor does not count. There is not sound stage or imaging in the electronics, so no AP box can measure that, not even a KIppel measuring in mono or in an ancheonic chambre. Because it relates to how the speaker reacts to the room it's in, not to the speaker or the electronics connected.
There are thousands of members at ASR and many of them quite likely feel that well measuring equipment suits best their personal taste. Their opinion is not better or worse than yours.
Please provide scientific references for your claims of what is "proven" by science. So far as I have seen, there are no published studies that support your claims above. I talked about random noise jitter, about USB bus EMI/RFI noise from PCs affecting dac sound, and about sound stage reproduction as affected by sound stage localization cues reproduction accuracy in electronics.
It is easily demonstrated that electronics can affect sound stage. Some of those spatial effects can even be heard in headphones. Best to hear them in with good speakers in a well-treated room, of course. But that's just one requirement, not the only requirement.
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I have audio as a hobby exactly to to forget suffering and pain. Maybe you should do something else for a while? When things start to be a drama one better changes direction completely. I changed to growing peppers, very relaxing but the German habanero ones are out of tune and have a brownish color with a tad of ground taste. Not enough taste besides the hot if you know what I mean. German jalapeno are however like a veil that is being lifted. The best overall taste image is produced by the cayenne variant which also turns out to be resistant to cold temperatures. They say at fora that I should use specific acidity hum rich ground and filter out the wrong sunshine light frequencies.
Totally different hobby.
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Anyone believing that a developed nation of 1.4 billion people cannot produce an outstanding DAC is wrong.
Most subjective impressions of DAC's is just going to be people making stuff up in their heads. There might be some different filters to choose from that can change how the very top end rolls off but that's about it. We're at the point where you can get a $15 dongle dac with distortion products so far below audibility that any claim of audible differences between most dacs should be met with skepticism. People often overestimate their hearing and undersetimate cognitive bias in listening. People don't understand how hearing is mostly done in the brain.
It's incredible how humans can solve a problem in audio which should make life simpler, but some people want to keep things complicated for whatever reason. So much misinformation in audio mostly due to uneducated people claiming things like "unmeasurables". When you pry further you realize their unmeasurables are easily quantified, they just lack the knowledge to know that. There's definitely a bit of willful ignorance and ego stopping people from accepting a lot of the sciences you find in audio reproduction.
It's also a little tough to do anything with the term "musical", it just doesn't mean anything.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I go to some threads on here. I really hate the tribalism some users exhibit, you can see it here in the way people talk about ASR members. If you believed these people you'd think ASR members are unfeelng robots that listen to numbers, when the truth is far from that. Out of all the audio forums I've been on, none have advanced my understanding of audio reproduction more than ASR. This has allowed me to optimize my listening experience to a degree that has only increased my interest and engagement with music. Hell, IM A MUSICIAN, it doesn't get any more engaging than that.
It's baffling that an adult said this. A grown *** adult said this. These are the kinds of people trying to sell you on misinformation and convince you science bad. Does this user sound reasonable to anyone?
I consider AES and CETA standards those to follow on that. There is a reason they are called standards. To read them you need an AES subscribtion as those are behind a paywall (to fund the organisation). Those are all peer reviewed and are open to scientific based critics and corrections (what happens from time to time). Look especially to the papers of Floyd Toole and Sean Olive.
And maybe you should also read about cognitive bias and (psycho)acoustics to understand why this is.
And maybe you should also read about cognitive bias and (psycho)acoustics to understand why this is.
Already studied it. Already joined AES and downloaded and read a lot of papers.
Would still like to know if you would like to provide specific evidence for your claims of what science shows? Or maybe it would be enough to explain where you got those ideas from? Probably from the some of the guys at ASR, right?
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Papers! he needs to read papers and opinions by higher educated preferably university people that studied complex matters like art history or gender studies and have learned how to judge such complicated technology. Not opinions by plebs. He shouldn't think he can judge audio by using his ears!!! And this as a layman without a title, the horror. Next thing could be that he, as a guy that knows how to handle a screw driver a soldering tool and a oscilloscope, knows a thing or two about washing machines or has opinions about technical stuff and we as the unchosen elite can not allow that can we?
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Oh, I know that. I have one of those - Holo May DAC.
But, according to Amir, the Toping DAC, worth 200 - 300 bucks, sounds superior to Holo May.
And, yes, many people will believe that and... suffer immensely.
amir has a future in politics, though.