The Beyma AMTs are fantastic but are not strictly ribbons. Better to my ear than Deccas by a mile.
i am not sure about that, it seems we all are sensitive to different things. or at least we listens under different conditions so there might not be one solution that fits all. ihave tried a few waveguides on domes that did not work for me in the long run, i have tried cd's in a coax that did not work either, but domes with wide dispersion has so far worked best. but i am not yet satisfied and my sonic goal is still further ahead
I have custom horn loaded Fountek ribbon which sounds good and has a suitable dispersion for 6.5" driver. The speakers completely disappear in the soundstage. Crossed at 3 -3.5kHz it doesn't go insanely loud but has a decent sweetspot.
That’s always been an anomalous point for me as when I listen, I sit down on axis and enjoy. Yes, even with the 3.0 which is relatively short.....stand up and the highs are gone.......but they’re also not bouncing off the ceiling either and you can hear the space the recording was made in.....as long as the walls are well damped and dispersed.....ribbons horizontal dispersion is as wide as it gets.
I would imagine the 3.5H works well without a baffle....I’ve never tried the 2 or 3 stand alone. The baffle sides are wood laminated with commercial grade felt which to my ears kills any and all diffraction.
.......and yes Red Fang is always in my playlist!
Just the OW1 back in the day.....it was a nice tweeter. Very ‘polite’.......like going on a date with a Librarian.
Have heard and used some AMTs over the years....but never the ‘high end’ expensive ones. Had a set of Adam AX7 monitors on my console for a few months and hated them.......which may have compromised my taste for AMTs in general.........but when I compare the tech of AMT and Ribbon, the element engineering of the ribbon smacks more musical.....like a large diaphragm condenser mic.
Mayhem13,
Having used compression driver/horn/waveguide devices with similar dispersion to ribbon drivers, I have also enjoyed the additional clarity and focus the reduction of high frequency floor and ceiling reflections either affords.
Sounds like your perception of clarity, focus and overall enjoyment may be tied as much to the ribbon's reduced vertical dispersion as other aspects of it's performance.
Art
Geddes strongly advocated that kind of control in his speaker design. You can't fix the reflections off your walls so you better limit what goes toward them.
But that seems to conflict with Toole who spends endless pages touting good dispersion and advocating more like a 360-degree smooth spinorama output.
Maybe the two perspectives are not so different since both consider just what gets to the sweet spot, by limitation of dispersion or by design of the dispersion.
B.
But that seems to conflict with Toole who spends endless pages touting good dispersion and advocating more like a 360-degree smooth spinorama output.
Maybe the two perspectives are not so different since both consider just what gets to the sweet spot, by limitation of dispersion or by design of the dispersion.
B.
A simply false statement. Of course it can be fixed and controlled, every good listening room should be damped, that's the way to control those energies.
Thats why I love to read amateur audio forums, so many basically false statements about facts, that should be known by any serious audiophile already.
But some seem to have very limited and false knowledge and spread it right through forums all over the world.
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AMTs sound exceedingly good when cut high enough. On a two-way, they are not as good. I had Scan Speak 6620s for several years, and much prefer AMTs.
I am in total agreement with Welyersys and Bentoronto comments.
I have found the constrained vertical dispersion and the accompanying reduction in floor and ceiling reflections one of the most obvious changes/improvements in clarity of HF.
Where opinion differs is in individual's preference, for a dry or wet sound, reverberations can be controlled, and I believe controlling at the source of emission, works for me.
Where Mayhem uses the CD2 and CD3, I use the "H" variant.
The short horn, I believe has a similar effect on the horizontal dispersion pattern, as the CD3 mounted on a baffle with heavy felt sides, or at least helps reduce the diffraction effects. The ribbon and motor in the two models are exactly the same, one has faceplate, the other short horn.
Essentially, I think Mayhem and I are striving for the same, or similar goals, and through different methods
Its really fascinating, that we have arrived at similar ideals, and share similar impressions!
I also agree that treating the room is a valid approach.
But I suggest, perhaps a combination of both methods, is the ultimate solution.
I don't have a side wall within 15 feet on one side, and a window, 6 feet away on the other "outside edge", thus I have a very long lateral first reflection, which has to pass a heavy sofa, and the other, a shorter lateral first reflection, damped by curtains.
Without intending it, I am likely experiencing both source directivity control and first reflection absorption laterally, without having to compromise WAF, by fixing foam panels everywhere!!!
Mayhem!!! That brilliant! I didnt expect anyone to read my signature, let alone know, or comment!
(I dont buy much new music, but Murder the Mountains was a good buy. A few more to buy yet!)
I have found the constrained vertical dispersion and the accompanying reduction in floor and ceiling reflections one of the most obvious changes/improvements in clarity of HF.
Where opinion differs is in individual's preference, for a dry or wet sound, reverberations can be controlled, and I believe controlling at the source of emission, works for me.
Where Mayhem uses the CD2 and CD3, I use the "H" variant.
The short horn, I believe has a similar effect on the horizontal dispersion pattern, as the CD3 mounted on a baffle with heavy felt sides, or at least helps reduce the diffraction effects. The ribbon and motor in the two models are exactly the same, one has faceplate, the other short horn.
Essentially, I think Mayhem and I are striving for the same, or similar goals, and through different methods
Its really fascinating, that we have arrived at similar ideals, and share similar impressions!
I also agree that treating the room is a valid approach.
But I suggest, perhaps a combination of both methods, is the ultimate solution.
I don't have a side wall within 15 feet on one side, and a window, 6 feet away on the other "outside edge", thus I have a very long lateral first reflection, which has to pass a heavy sofa, and the other, a shorter lateral first reflection, damped by curtains.
Without intending it, I am likely experiencing both source directivity control and first reflection absorption laterally, without having to compromise WAF, by fixing foam panels everywhere!!!
Mayhem!!! That brilliant! I didnt expect anyone to read my signature, let alone know, or comment!
(I dont buy much new music, but Murder the Mountains was a good buy. A few more to buy yet!)
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That's quite an authoritative evaluation of the forums all over the world.... esp coming from a person who holds an idiosyncratic opinion about a "ball-park" horn designed 100 years ago by Western Electric.
Sad, I believe you are another victim of the Myth of Power Through Engineering. While you can trim some influences of room acoustics, it is a fantasy to believe you can re-engineer your room to a substantial degree, assuming you do want to have at least minimal domestic functioning too.
You would learn a lot by reading Toole, 3rd Edition. I recommend you do so.
B.
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Believs shouldn't take place in a technical forum. What we are talking here are facts.
And with believs, all problems start. You think you know, but instead you just "believe" some things about me.
If you think, what Western Electric designed is a "ball-park" horn, you may have not the knowledge to justify their technical approach in so many fields of audio.
This was a major company, not only designing the finest audio components, but any other electrical products. They command highest prices, even today.
What you criticize has been done successfully at some high End audio shows in germany already some decades ago and the speaker system achieved the "Best sound of the show" award.
And now, decades later you came and spread the news it couldn't be done. Very funny.
Btw, I'm a studied electrical engineer of profession with some 40+ years in experience with room acoustics. I don't know who you are, but I "believe" some of that knowledge is missing with your expertise.
And with believs, all problems start. You think you know, but instead you just "believe" some things about me.
If you think, what Western Electric designed is a "ball-park" horn, you may have not the knowledge to justify their technical approach in so many fields of audio.
This was a major company, not only designing the finest audio components, but any other electrical products. They command highest prices, even today.
What you criticize has been done successfully at some high End audio shows in germany already some decades ago and the speaker system achieved the "Best sound of the show" award.
And now, decades later you came and spread the news it couldn't be done. Very funny.
Btw, I'm a studied electrical engineer of profession with some 40+ years in experience with room acoustics. I don't know who you are, but I "believe" some of that knowledge is missing with your expertise.
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Nope.
Other than a horn, with a 4" throat, I cant think of a valid approach - a wave guide that size is impractical in my listening space, so I feel I have done 'enough' or most what is possible, I.e. nothing.
For what it is worth to Schmitz, where I use "believe" it is polite modest British correct grammar, for someone who does not know the world and all of its intricacies....
Facts/theories, change and evolve, and faith in absolute terms in an engineering concept, is foolish.
Engineers, are wrong, frequently. I can think of a few at Siemens, that thought they were correct, and were proven wrong, by the "I believe" statement, from a Brit.
By the way.... many of us here are Engineers....myself included.
I have maybe 15 years experience, but even if that were 50, I would not be so bold to assume others were lesser to me.
Maybe put that thinking, on the back burner.
Theres an old saying:
"Pride comes before a fall:
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As long as you do not present the 'facts', you are talking about your beliefs. What could have been simpler than publishing some measurements on that infamous horn tweeter? Claims like 'best on high end shows' are certainly no proof btw.
Not an engineer but I've tried lots of different tweets (none uber-expensive), and like AMTs.
I also quite like full rangers in waveguides (but have no measurements to offer). Course they're not tweeters so don't exactly count. Just saying, they can sound pretty good.
I also quite like full rangers in waveguides (but have no measurements to offer). Course they're not tweeters so don't exactly count. Just saying, they can sound pretty good.