Either you have a very interesting approach or you are ignoring what persons knew a long time ago, continue to know, and will know going forward. What exactly is your point? You really don't need to question things that don't need questioning unless:
1. You don't have a full grasp of the topic at hand and think you do.
2. You just like to stir the pot.
Which camp are you in?
All the ABX double blind tests prove conclusively that it is snake oil.
Nope, i just asked about scientific proof. All i get are funny remarks and some pointers to video's.
Oh well.
If you don't understand that you can't proof a negative, you'll wait till infinity.
For example, you can't proof that there is NOT a peach inside the sun.
Jan
Jan, please help me understand what you are saying. How this relates to whether cable is or can be directional.
Member
Joined 2006
Well.. this is theoretical.... but.. perhaps someone can try it.😃
Theories: It is known that very thin copper oxide starts to form on copper surface once exposed to air and it is semiconducting (ie, a rectifier), and skin effect forces higher freqs signal to travel toward and along the wire surface.
Procedure:
Try a few feet of new old stock copper cable, and strip off the jacket for testing (ie, naked...the wires, not you).
First burn those wires in for a couple of days at high volume level.
Then measurements begin with driving the wires at lowest measurable signal say at 20Khz or above. Record the output value/waveform.
Measure the wires again but in reversed direction, and see if the signal level/waveform is different.
Of course listening tests can be done along too, will be fun if there's any real difference there. 😸
Theories: It is known that very thin copper oxide starts to form on copper surface once exposed to air and it is semiconducting (ie, a rectifier), and skin effect forces higher freqs signal to travel toward and along the wire surface.
Procedure:
Try a few feet of new old stock copper cable, and strip off the jacket for testing (ie, naked...the wires, not you).
First burn those wires in for a couple of days at high volume level.
Then measurements begin with driving the wires at lowest measurable signal say at 20Khz or above. Record the output value/waveform.
Measure the wires again but in reversed direction, and see if the signal level/waveform is different.
Of course listening tests can be done along too, will be fun if there's any real difference there. 😸
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You keep on asking for proof that cables are NOT directional. That's a logical fallacy.
You can't proof a negative, this is basic stuff.
But yes you can proof that a cable IS directional, if that would be the case.
The point is that so far nobody has been able to proof it, with a well-organised and statistically significant outcome.
And no, 'my wife came running from the kitchen' is not one.
Edit: it only takes one acceptable test to proof a positive, that a cable is directional. No matter how many tests do not prove it, the fact that one test did proof it is, well, proof.
But even 1 million cases where it is not proven that they are directional do not proof that it is not directional, because there's always a chance that one test appears one day that proves it is.
That is the logical basis behind the 'you can't prove a negative'.
Jan
He believes a single frequency measurement of a cable/speaker combination is correct. EM drivers are much more complex.
I rarely listen to single tones.
John
Ah, forgot to mention.
He bandies the phrase "skin effect" around despite the fact that for a zip construction, the dominant factor is proximity effect. The current is trying to take the path of least impedance, and to do that it tries to reduce the loop area. It can only do so much within the confines of the conductor.
If the conductors are spaced 5 to 10 diameters apart, then proximity will no longer be the dominant effect and then skin effect will be the only thing to measure.
The equation generally used to calculate current depth is the exponential one, despite the fact that the exponential equation is defined for a planar wave impinging normal to a conductive surface, using it for round conductors in the audio band is a misapplication.
Does anyone else find it odd that he has settled into a speaker cable that has an RF characteristic impedance down in the 40 ohm range? Despite showing by "measurements" that the difference cannot be heard by human beings?
For over a decade I have stated that I would use a speaker cable with a characteristic impedance of roughly 25 ohms to minimize the difference between the speaker range of impedance and that of the cable.
John
Okay, now you're poking the bear.
Apparently the question asker wants a real answer but isn't able to read and is suggesting that a hundred years of study are not acceptable. I expect that unless a real question is asked, I have little to add going forward.
It relates to the proof YOU demand that cables are directional or not.
Impossible finding anything more related to your supposed "questions".
Which by now are not bonafide questions any more, just a way to TROLL.
Well, i´s just your theory , you offer no justification or experiment and ask us to try it.
IF really interested and not just trying to fill screen space, YOU test your pet theory and post results here.
And by the way, you are introducing silly "microdiodes theory" into the pot.
Keep stirring.
Your decision of course, but I would be readying the thread cutting scissors and the handy "further posts blocked" labels, this "thread" is going the way of all other cable threads, including the directional cable ones which have already been discussed ad nauseam.
Microdiodes, transmission lines, RF characteristic impedance and skin effect have already raised their heads here.
Even more important: MY wife is reading over my shoulder and saying "oh no! Not ANOTHER cable thread!!!!" , which of course is THE definitive proof of anything.
That has nothing to do with “directionality”. It is just instructions on the optimum connections at both ends for shielded twisted pair, when connecting either unbalanced RCA or balanced XLR amp inputs, given an unbalanced source. You would glean exactly the same information from the Rane app notes on the subject.
STP isn’t what‘s used in most of the high dollar snake oil interconnects, but is used in pro audio work all the time. Because it can be used to connect anything to anything, just put on the right connector with the ground connected at the proper end(s).