Hi,
Have 25 years old Apogee Stages. last decade they are working in 3 way active configuration, almost identical as Apogee Mini Grand. Subs are diy with 10 inch woofers, stock crossover removed and digital dsp-xo applied. Beside 2 main subs beneath the Stages, there are 3 additional subs arranged asper Geddes system.
Crossover points are 80Hz and 700Hz 24/LR.
Unfortunately, it seems that one Stages woofer panel is close to the end of the life. I already find some info on this forum how to fix the loosened foam suspention, but I am not so convinced that this will be performed successfuly. Of course I will firstly in near future try to reinforce the foam suspention with silicone stuff.
The 26 inch mid-tweeter ribbons are in great shape, they are changed 3 years ago. I would like to stay with present shape and design, so, from 80Hz – 20KHz, speakers to remain dipole. I am thinking about, what could be possible adequate substitution for stock Stage woofer panel. Making new diy ribbon woofer panel is out of my capabilities, Combinations with several BG Neo 8 or Neo 10 are too costly, funds are limited.
Well, the operating range of the new driver(s) should be from 80-700Hz with 24/LR xo.
Some ideas I have on my mind for now, in the existing baffle, instead of ribbon woofer panel to install something of the following:
1. 15 inch woofer per side (I already have a pair of Technics/National EAS 38PL07S from Technics SB-G500 vintage speakers). In my area I can find Eminence Alpha15 with acceptable price if neccesary.
2. Two 12 inch X brand woofers per side.
3. Cluster of several X brand smaller drivers, per side, but maybe that could be costly?
The other option, go to midwoofer in box, whether b/r or sealed, like Apogee Centaurus/Slant series. Woodworking is not a problem. Have several pairs of solid woofers, Visaton TIW 250 8 Ohm, Visaton WSP 26 S 9 8Ohm, and smaller, Kef B-200, and older Mission 8 inch woofers (I beleive made from Audax, from one of the first amped Mission sub).
I already tried simulations with woofer in box positioned bellow the 26 inch MRT like majority of hibryd speakers are made, but not liked it. As a previous owner of Apogee Centaurus Minor, my opinion is that the better position of the woofer would be on the middle of the 26 inch ribbon side, close as possible.
But, with midwoofer in any box I always hear the box, so I prefer to stay with dipole.
The amplification is not a problem, have several amps. Digital xo-dsp are EV Dx34a, two pcs, capable for stereo 4-way systems.
Just to remind, we are talking about 80-700Hz range, 80 could be eventually moved to max 100Hz, but 700 should stay (tried in last 10 years any possible xo freq from 350Hz to 1200Hz, find 700 with 24LR as the best option for MRT, speed/spl/sound compromise).
Any suggestions/ideas are more than welcome.
Thanks in advance
Have 25 years old Apogee Stages. last decade they are working in 3 way active configuration, almost identical as Apogee Mini Grand. Subs are diy with 10 inch woofers, stock crossover removed and digital dsp-xo applied. Beside 2 main subs beneath the Stages, there are 3 additional subs arranged asper Geddes system.
Crossover points are 80Hz and 700Hz 24/LR.
Unfortunately, it seems that one Stages woofer panel is close to the end of the life. I already find some info on this forum how to fix the loosened foam suspention, but I am not so convinced that this will be performed successfuly. Of course I will firstly in near future try to reinforce the foam suspention with silicone stuff.
The 26 inch mid-tweeter ribbons are in great shape, they are changed 3 years ago. I would like to stay with present shape and design, so, from 80Hz – 20KHz, speakers to remain dipole. I am thinking about, what could be possible adequate substitution for stock Stage woofer panel. Making new diy ribbon woofer panel is out of my capabilities, Combinations with several BG Neo 8 or Neo 10 are too costly, funds are limited.
Well, the operating range of the new driver(s) should be from 80-700Hz with 24/LR xo.
Some ideas I have on my mind for now, in the existing baffle, instead of ribbon woofer panel to install something of the following:
1. 15 inch woofer per side (I already have a pair of Technics/National EAS 38PL07S from Technics SB-G500 vintage speakers). In my area I can find Eminence Alpha15 with acceptable price if neccesary.
2. Two 12 inch X brand woofers per side.
3. Cluster of several X brand smaller drivers, per side, but maybe that could be costly?
The other option, go to midwoofer in box, whether b/r or sealed, like Apogee Centaurus/Slant series. Woodworking is not a problem. Have several pairs of solid woofers, Visaton TIW 250 8 Ohm, Visaton WSP 26 S 9 8Ohm, and smaller, Kef B-200, and older Mission 8 inch woofers (I beleive made from Audax, from one of the first amped Mission sub).
I already tried simulations with woofer in box positioned bellow the 26 inch MRT like majority of hibryd speakers are made, but not liked it. As a previous owner of Apogee Centaurus Minor, my opinion is that the better position of the woofer would be on the middle of the 26 inch ribbon side, close as possible.
But, with midwoofer in any box I always hear the box, so I prefer to stay with dipole.
The amplification is not a problem, have several amps. Digital xo-dsp are EV Dx34a, two pcs, capable for stereo 4-way systems.
Just to remind, we are talking about 80-700Hz range, 80 could be eventually moved to max 100Hz, but 700 should stay (tried in last 10 years any possible xo freq from 350Hz to 1200Hz, find 700 with 24LR as the best option for MRT, speed/spl/sound compromise).
Any suggestions/ideas are more than welcome.
Thanks in advance
I have had 5pr of Stages..........never has any bass panel it self had a buzz.....an all my Stages were ran fullrang...........
.I have pr here now that were made in 1993........ an have found buzzing...........but it was in the crossover parts an wire......as you may know thay used soild 16ga wire...........it runs up ea side of the MT,......an in the crossover .....
also the two wood reals at the top an bottem of the bass driver....... can an do cuse buzzing.....thay can be removed an new foum added......
just becarful when removeing the reals...I just back the screws out part way....
not all the way out..... an Vary ezely...pull the reals losen ...the old foum can stick to the foil..then take the screws out.....this on it owne can stop a lot of what we call bass buzzing............
when you put the reals back.... thay should not be tite.....the new foum well give just a little move ment..........your Stages being crossover higher.....sould not buzz...............but who knows..................
Also I have owend the Duetta Sig.....for the people who have the Duetta today...........refoum these two bass reals!
It well give better bass....an kill a lot of Buzzing....if I had only new then..........oh well thats life...
good luck
.I have pr here now that were made in 1993........ an have found buzzing...........but it was in the crossover parts an wire......as you may know thay used soild 16ga wire...........it runs up ea side of the MT,......an in the crossover .....
also the two wood reals at the top an bottem of the bass driver....... can an do cuse buzzing.....thay can be removed an new foum added......
just becarful when removeing the reals...I just back the screws out part way....
not all the way out..... an Vary ezely...pull the reals losen ...the old foum can stick to the foil..then take the screws out.....this on it owne can stop a lot of what we call bass buzzing............
when you put the reals back.... thay should not be tite.....the new foum well give just a little move ment..........your Stages being crossover higher.....sould not buzz...............but who knows..................
Also I have owend the Duetta Sig.....for the people who have the Duetta today...........refoum these two bass reals!
It well give better bass....an kill a lot of Buzzing....if I had only new then..........oh well thats life...
good luck
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Tyu, thanks for reply and sorry for delay
Last week I opened the left speaker - lift the front baffle, find almost all screws (slotted and other with square dent in the middle) a bit loose.
Carefully removed upper and lower mdf clamps (rails) and find that foam almost do not exist, it is so tin and seems like pressed in the clamp. After undo the screws, for removing the clamps from the aluminum foil I used a piece of sewing thread, moving gently between aluminum foil membrane and the clamp. Well, the aluminum panel remain intact without any damage.
I noticed that the same kind of foam tape is glued on the other (visible) side of the clamps. The condition of that foam looks relatively ok, so I just flipped the mdf clamps on the other side and fixed them to the previous positions, fixing the screws with moderate force.
The buzzing is greatly reduced, appeared now sometimes only on the higher levels.
The same work is performed on the both Stages.
Now, my next question/dilemma is, whether it is possible to remove the other two side clamps on the similar way, in order to renew the foam beneath them without destructing the woofer panel. I suppose that the same kind of foam strips are as well on the other side of the aluminum panel (looking to the magnets on back speaker plate). Somewhere I saw that it is possible to remove the back plate with magnets, so maybe the same procedure could be performed with the foam on the other side?
In all topics on various forums, I have seen, it is always stated that removing the Stage woofer panel is not possible without damage it. Well, I am now not so sure, and would like to know whether anybody actually succeed it?
Previously I thought that the foam was glued to aluminum foil but as I see now it is not, so maybe it is possible to remove the old foam completely and replace with new.
Any thoughts, ideas, experiences are welcome.
Best regards,
Last week I opened the left speaker - lift the front baffle, find almost all screws (slotted and other with square dent in the middle) a bit loose.
Carefully removed upper and lower mdf clamps (rails) and find that foam almost do not exist, it is so tin and seems like pressed in the clamp. After undo the screws, for removing the clamps from the aluminum foil I used a piece of sewing thread, moving gently between aluminum foil membrane and the clamp. Well, the aluminum panel remain intact without any damage.
I noticed that the same kind of foam tape is glued on the other (visible) side of the clamps. The condition of that foam looks relatively ok, so I just flipped the mdf clamps on the other side and fixed them to the previous positions, fixing the screws with moderate force.
The buzzing is greatly reduced, appeared now sometimes only on the higher levels.
The same work is performed on the both Stages.
Now, my next question/dilemma is, whether it is possible to remove the other two side clamps on the similar way, in order to renew the foam beneath them without destructing the woofer panel. I suppose that the same kind of foam strips are as well on the other side of the aluminum panel (looking to the magnets on back speaker plate). Somewhere I saw that it is possible to remove the back plate with magnets, so maybe the same procedure could be performed with the foam on the other side?
In all topics on various forums, I have seen, it is always stated that removing the Stage woofer panel is not possible without damage it. Well, I am now not so sure, and would like to know whether anybody actually succeed it?
Previously I thought that the foam was glued to aluminum foil but as I see now it is not, so maybe it is possible to remove the old foam completely and replace with new.
Any thoughts, ideas, experiences are welcome.
Best regards,
You can remove top/ bottom clamps. but you cannot remove the side clamps without destroying the panel. If I were you I would place teh speaker on its side and lay a bead of silicone (in proportions indicated on this site) in the foam area. reverse the speaker and do same on other side.
The good thing about the stages is you should be able to get behind the panel to inject the silicone solution on the back side by removing the back panel...
The good thing about the stages is you should be able to get behind the panel to inject the silicone solution on the back side by removing the back panel...
Obviously the first thing to do is try and fix the bass panel as has been described. If you want to swap to cones for the bass panel there are a range of choices depending on where you cross over and how loud you want to go. As I have a small room, my sweet spot seems to be around 8" with a handover to the subs at 150-180Hz but you do have space to go much bigger if you find a driver you like. The resurgence in open baffles means a lot of suitable units to fit every pocket and creed!
If you don't wanna accept the reality, its up to you.
You posted the same thing in the apogee forum also.
My stages are in the closet, both buzzing. Mission impossible.
Waste of time until i have access for new woofer foils
I have been reading how someone fixed the buzz when removing the magnet structure to get access on the ribbon backside.
Do that if you like, maybe you have luck. It s lesser than 50 : 50 to cure the buzz and no idea for how long time if it works. Second the magnet are no more adjusted like they should and the tuning not everybodies thing.
If you use other type of woofer, the sound will be complete different. Also up to you. Makes no sense for me. Stages sound so good because the have those woofers and tweeters.
It would be like a Ferrari with built in Fiat motor IMHO.
Or a Bentley with a VW engine. Or a cadillac with a chevvy engine.
Heaven forbid infinity using JBL drivers.
As far as I know, Fiat still owns Ferrari (Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, ect)....and probably do have Fiat engines. And they still rule!
Bah! Where does 50:50 come from? My Duetta Sigs worked fine after Silicone treatment, and most likely still working fine (sold them). If you choose to try, fine, but you don't know unless you try - if your planing new foils anyway, what's your loss? You may just save yourself a few Thousand in cost for the foils, shipping, and a "Pro" to install the foils, and still end up with a speaker that is worth a fraction of what was spent to fix. Doesn't sound very smart, no? Isn't an investment of $9 of Silicone Oil and windshield sealant, and a few hours is worth it to save a couple Thousand?
I just loved those on the Apogee forum telling me I just totally destroyed any inherent value of my Duetta Sigs after completing the treatment, as if the "buzz" was supposed to be there, and somehow made them so much more valuable.
I actually tried to emulate my Scintilla (1ohm) bass response with a Carver Amazing cone setup (four Dynavox drivers on open baffle). Not even remotely close. The Scintillas bass even bettered my Tympani T-IVa bass panels. Try to salvage your Apogees - it is definitely worth it.
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Groove,
That's the kind of silly rhetoric that prompted me to leave the Apogee forum.
This is a DIY forum for crying out loud. If a person wants to try alternative methods for woofer repair or implementation or whatever, more power to them. So what if the results is some sort of "hybrid" Apogee.
Cheers,
Dave.
That's the kind of silly rhetoric that prompted me to leave the Apogee forum.
This is a DIY forum for crying out loud. If a person wants to try alternative methods for woofer repair or implementation or whatever, more power to them. So what if the results is some sort of "hybrid" Apogee.
Cheers,
Dave.
Hi,
I am aware that in the case of substitution of the woofer panel with other conventional driver, the sound would never be close as in original design and think that the best bet should be good 8/10 inch woofer in sealed enclosure like in centaurus or slant series. If going this route, I would make something closer to matrix enclosure, so the box with at least possible internal resonances. Btw, my previous speakers were C/Minors, nice sound but without bass.
Silicone oil treatment is the option that I can try, for sure.
I am just curious, can anyone, explain how the woofer panel is attached to the side mdf rails, whether at some point aluminum is glued or not?
Best regards,
I am aware that in the case of substitution of the woofer panel with other conventional driver, the sound would never be close as in original design and think that the best bet should be good 8/10 inch woofer in sealed enclosure like in centaurus or slant series. If going this route, I would make something closer to matrix enclosure, so the box with at least possible internal resonances. Btw, my previous speakers were C/Minors, nice sound but without bass.
Silicone oil treatment is the option that I can try, for sure.
I am just curious, can anyone, explain how the woofer panel is attached to the side mdf rails, whether at some point aluminum is glued or not?
Best regards,
Hi Dave
No problemo for me.
Everybody can do with his speakers what he want. It doesn't care me.
I have seen enough Apogees, where the owners spoke from a minor problem, the reality was very different.
I have no golden ears like most of those them which can hear the triangle on the left side in row 11, but i can hear when the buzz is there . 😛
And i know that todays Ferraris have Ferrari Engines inside, nothing else.
They are expensive and cute, would like to have one but not enough money.
And no serious Ferrari Owner would accept DIY Spare Parts in his car or a non qualified mechanic to fix the engine or whatever.
So i stick on my rusty car as long as the engine works well and miss nothing, but always i think *wow" when i see and hear one of them on the road here.
Apogees have been expensive speakers and they still are expensive.
But the result is worth it. I never would accept lesser performance than is possible and furthermore i invest in better parts when they make sense.
Also i stay away from cure a sickness with a prayer or a plaster.
But i own FRs, Scintillas, Stage and use restored Duettas with selfmade x-over actually until i have time to restore/rebuild the FRs without any BS-Compromise and the scinnies as back-up 😎
I wanna have the real thing.
Frank
BTW und just for the note : Did i mention, that i am a certified Apogee Wooferinstaller and that i know Apogee since the beginning here aroung 1984 and had several tech talks with Jason Bloom and since then maaaaany Apo's have been in my hands?
Groove,
OK, now I am listening. I did not know you were "in the know" at that level. My apologies.
Now I have a question for you - what happened to the Graz - Patrick relationship? You can email me a response if you prefer.
Thanks
OK, now I am listening. I did not know you were "in the know" at that level. My apologies.
Now I have a question for you - what happened to the Graz - Patrick relationship? You can email me a response if you prefer.
Thanks
john65 , no problem.
There was no relationship.
Graz makes CNC- cut precisionfoils with original type material, but 100% accurate due CNC and uses improved glue between capton and alloy, what is audible better and good for a long life.
The other one made DIY Foils handcut which are for install by DIY People which dont can or want spent the money for us installers.
In the end the speakers come to us installers when there are troubles, what often is the case. Sometimes there occures problems while installing woofers, since the originals Apogees were often made on substandard level and tolerances, creating new problems. Always a surprise when i rip them off. Some are ruined by peoples which did not know how to treat them well.
The foil itself is a little bit cheaper than Graz ones, so its up to the owners what they prefer. I have high quality approach and pay the price.
The other german company (which offered Scintilla clones) is bankrupt and closed. They also lost the fight in law against Apogee Acoustics by Graz.
There was no relationship.
Graz makes CNC- cut precisionfoils with original type material, but 100% accurate due CNC and uses improved glue between capton and alloy, what is audible better and good for a long life.
The other one made DIY Foils handcut which are for install by DIY People which dont can or want spent the money for us installers.
In the end the speakers come to us installers when there are troubles, what often is the case. Sometimes there occures problems while installing woofers, since the originals Apogees were often made on substandard level and tolerances, creating new problems. Always a surprise when i rip them off. Some are ruined by peoples which did not know how to treat them well.
The foil itself is a little bit cheaper than Graz ones, so its up to the owners what they prefer. I have high quality approach and pay the price.
The other german company (which offered Scintilla clones) is bankrupt and closed. They also lost the fight in law against Apogee Acoustics by Graz.
Thanks for the info......
Funny to me that over at "Apogee Speaker chat"..Graz site..That minny say is a dead duck.....
One of the lates post is "New centaur minors owner"....took 4pages ..90post ....2299 hites...befor anyone said that were all talking about....Centaur.....not the minors......too real...I gess Dave right ...all old news...............
Funny to me that over at "Apogee Speaker chat"..Graz site..That minny say is a dead duck.....
One of the lates post is "New centaur minors owner"....took 4pages ..90post ....2299 hites...befor anyone said that were all talking about....Centaur.....not the minors......too real...I gess Dave right ...all old news...............
Frank,
Apogee's are Ferrari's now? 🙂 Please stop with the silly analogies and rhetoric.
I laughed out loud at a recent post from Graz on the Apogee forum exclaiming the "silicone fix does not work." I guess that would be bad news for Olaf who outlined the procedure on the Apogee forum, and who's speakers are still working fine. 🙂
Graz deleting that entire thread from the Apogee forum was the last straw for me. What a pathetic turn of events that was.
Anyways, it's pretty clear you have a conflict of interest regarding DIY repairs of Apogee speakers. As long as that fact is clear to members here, then I'm sure your posts are appreciated. Heck, if a DIY'er screws something up, it's more (potential) business for you, right?
The objective for everybody interested in Apogee speakers should be to keep as many of them out of the scrap heap as possible. I don't think the current "Apogee" repair business model accomplishes that goal.
Cheers,
Dave.
Apogee's are Ferrari's now? 🙂 Please stop with the silly analogies and rhetoric.
I laughed out loud at a recent post from Graz on the Apogee forum exclaiming the "silicone fix does not work." I guess that would be bad news for Olaf who outlined the procedure on the Apogee forum, and who's speakers are still working fine. 🙂
Graz deleting that entire thread from the Apogee forum was the last straw for me. What a pathetic turn of events that was.
Anyways, it's pretty clear you have a conflict of interest regarding DIY repairs of Apogee speakers. As long as that fact is clear to members here, then I'm sure your posts are appreciated. Heck, if a DIY'er screws something up, it's more (potential) business for you, right?
The objective for everybody interested in Apogee speakers should be to keep as many of them out of the scrap heap as possible. I don't think the current "Apogee" repair business model accomplishes that goal.
Cheers,
Dave.
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I, for one, did the silicone fix and can honestly say it does works - it removes the buzz. No magic about it, the soft silicone fills the foam voids and diaphragm no longer hits the side wooden clamps. Now if silicone does not fill all the gaps, the buzz may not be completely mitigated, but does not mean it does not work.
If I were a businessman, I would offer this service as a possible fix before the full fix of replacing the panel. You would likely get quite a bit more business, without cannibalizing the Graz Business model, possibly even increase it.
Does anyone dare think how many Apogees out there have been tossed off to the local dump, thinking there was no minimal cost option to get them functional?
Please do not take this as an affront to your livelihood and hard work, but I just cannot understand why a simpler fix is not offered.
Can you imagine taking your expensive Ferrari in and being told that you have no choice but to replace your entire engine when all you "MAY" need are new spark plugs, and your Ferrari is worthless without the "proper" fix?
If I were a businessman, I would offer this service as a possible fix before the full fix of replacing the panel. You would likely get quite a bit more business, without cannibalizing the Graz Business model, possibly even increase it.
Does anyone dare think how many Apogees out there have been tossed off to the local dump, thinking there was no minimal cost option to get them functional?
Please do not take this as an affront to your livelihood and hard work, but I just cannot understand why a simpler fix is not offered.
Can you imagine taking your expensive Ferrari in and being told that you have no choice but to replace your entire engine when all you "MAY" need are new spark plugs, and your Ferrari is worthless without the "proper" fix?
BAAAAAD analogy. Engines are generally sealed units these days. Other than oil, filters and spark plugs anything else is replace whole engine. Cam belt on ferrari is IIRO $15k as the engine has to come out. You often used to see them coming to sale with a few k miles off a cam change quite affordably.
As someone who patched breaks in their ribbon tweeters for about 8 years I appreciate DIY and if the Silicon buys another 18 months whilst you put the money by for replacements so much the better, but it wont get your speakers back to showroom condition and will change their operation. It has to!
No, i have NO conflict. I just do not explain my knowledge for which i spent a lot of money and time.
Neither Graz nor me nor othes installers make real money with the fixes, the figures are way to low.
If someone want to do me the job, he pays and i work. Thats all.
If you feel the analogies silly. ok, fine.
But if you bring a Quality High tech product to fix to the official service and they see, there are DIY or faked parts, they stop the work, charge you for the work done, replace all those strange parts, they charge before doing that, and then they start the real fix work.
If i paint my Mercedes Bus whit my own color, the warranty for rust and safety is gone on the spot and it costs a fortune to redo it.
Rolex charges good if the service was made by not licensed watchmakers.
FM Acoustics cost 285! bucks per labourhour, if you did DIY method, i cost many k$ to fix the unit....
Ferrari is for me just a first class product, you can also say Lamborghibi, Bentley, Asthon Martin, Porsche or similar.
And Apogees ae for me Loudspeakers in the first class, nothing else.
If you feel Graz rips of the clients, well, sad to hear that since i know him as very serious maker and i am sure until today he invested more than he earned. But its up to everyone to stay away from him and is products, and use parts whatever you like or treat your speakers like you like.
I can't say anything about the buzz thing.
But I do know for certain that the woofer panels on every single Apogee that I have ever seen is put together/designed wrong!!
I just picked up a pair of Calipers, same thing.
Here's what the issue is in a nutshell - the turns on the foil do not match the magnetic turns of the magnet structure. As a result part of the woofer is out of phase, or not fully driven. It's pretty easy to see this visually.
Since it's a woofer panel, I'd expect that other than the issue of making the pleats in the surface that doing one up "properly" would not be a terribly difficult task, since mass is not nearly the same issue as it is with HF drivers. In fact a certain amount of mass is likely required to reach Fs anyhow.
If I had the time I'd haul out the pair I acquired 20 years back that had one with a cat ripped up woofer panel (anyone want to pick up a pair with good tweeters? Trades?) and do up a woofer panel with multiple paralleled turns, and get the Z up where it belongs along with substantially more sensitivity.
Jes' sayin...
_-_-
But I do know for certain that the woofer panels on every single Apogee that I have ever seen is put together/designed wrong!!
I just picked up a pair of Calipers, same thing.
Here's what the issue is in a nutshell - the turns on the foil do not match the magnetic turns of the magnet structure. As a result part of the woofer is out of phase, or not fully driven. It's pretty easy to see this visually.
Since it's a woofer panel, I'd expect that other than the issue of making the pleats in the surface that doing one up "properly" would not be a terribly difficult task, since mass is not nearly the same issue as it is with HF drivers. In fact a certain amount of mass is likely required to reach Fs anyhow.
If I had the time I'd haul out the pair I acquired 20 years back that had one with a cat ripped up woofer panel (anyone want to pick up a pair with good tweeters? Trades?) and do up a woofer panel with multiple paralleled turns, and get the Z up where it belongs along with substantially more sensitivity.
Jes' sayin...
_-_-
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