That's another impressive driver which performs way ahead of its class. Nothing to complain about on that one. It will do 28 hz f3 in 160 ltrs with 19mm xmax and 95 dB sensitivity. May want to consider scraping more funds together and go for that one.
A push-push setup would be a good way to lower THD and end up with 4 ohm loads using 2 x 8 ohm drivers. I have a 2U QSC Powerlite amp that does 1200 RMS per side into 4 ohms, but it likely won't sound better (probably worse) than the IcePower class D plate amps I wanted to use with 700 W into 4 ohms. Don't think we'll need more than that to get to the levels we want.
I wasn’t saying you don‘t need frequency extension below 30hz……nor less even 80hz. My point is that everything below 70-80hz in most rooms is purely modal so all of the properties you’re concerning yourself with in the decision making process are quite meaningless unless you were listening in the nearfield where the direct sound would be so high in amplitude to render the modes meaningless.
Without being critical, you’ve come to a forum to ask for pretty technical assistance but your question as you’ve outlined it above equated to ‘help me to use a phillips head screwdriver to remove a flat headed screw’.
And as I hate to be misquoted, fundamental notes in the modal region are purely resonant whether it a sound board, an acoustic enclosure, pipe or horn or synthesized tone.
The only reason I stopped here for one LAST TIME, is to give Kudos to @mayhem13 . Very, very few of the "speaker folks" are 1) aware of this concept, or 2)unwilling to pursue it. This is the method I have adopted for my very own personal music playback system. What's required for the lowest 2(+ a bit) octaves are different from the region extending above this. Indeed, I have calculated the Schroeder frequency of my room, built the multi-bass system into the room, and have entertained recording engineers over here, to ear-witness this. With regards to the Dayton Odeum drivers, once again you are in QB3 territory and will not reproduce the very lowest bass.
"No good deed goes unpunished"........and that's all from me.
@mayhem13 I wasn't at all trying to misquote you. That isn't even remotely the premise of my last reply. All I wanted was some opinions on the drivers I mentioned in my first post.
Feeling like everything I'm saying is being contested and corrected to a fault feels like the other person is overly argumentative. This isn't my first rodeo using drivers which are intended for other applications. I know the risks and issues. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. Thats my issue and potential loss.
I really don't mind being corrected for the sake of learning something new and sincerely try to err on the side of being the person who gives way when mis-communication may be taking place. You honestly come across as having the need to correct me on almost everything I'm proposing, despite my trying to respectfully decline further advice.
Again, all I sincerely wanted was the opinions of anyone who may have used the specific drivers I mentioned, not to have my choice of words and technical lingo nitpicked to death. I was also respectfully trying to be as direct as possible, but everything I say appears to be wrong or flawed even though I made it clear only wanting opinions on the specific drivers I listed in my first post.
If it still matters, yes, its mostly nearfield but the room has active absorbers in it, making LF response virtually flat down to 40 hz with very fast decay of everything 60 hz and up. We also installed a large helmholz absorber into the closet of the next bedroom, which also has all the power supplies and AC vent baffling, etc. Because the room is so dead, there is a need for extra output to overcome the quasi anechoic low end. Otherwise its just a nasty equal sided box with a fundamental mode of 50 hz. We need at least an easy 100 dB at 30 hz. More would be better.
Feeling like everything I'm saying is being contested and corrected to a fault feels like the other person is overly argumentative. This isn't my first rodeo using drivers which are intended for other applications. I know the risks and issues. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. Thats my issue and potential loss.
I really don't mind being corrected for the sake of learning something new and sincerely try to err on the side of being the person who gives way when mis-communication may be taking place. You honestly come across as having the need to correct me on almost everything I'm proposing, despite my trying to respectfully decline further advice.
Again, all I sincerely wanted was the opinions of anyone who may have used the specific drivers I mentioned, not to have my choice of words and technical lingo nitpicked to death. I was also respectfully trying to be as direct as possible, but everything I say appears to be wrong or flawed even though I made it clear only wanting opinions on the specific drivers I listed in my first post.
If it still matters, yes, its mostly nearfield but the room has active absorbers in it, making LF response virtually flat down to 40 hz with very fast decay of everything 60 hz and up. We also installed a large helmholz absorber into the closet of the next bedroom, which also has all the power supplies and AC vent baffling, etc. Because the room is so dead, there is a need for extra output to overcome the quasi anechoic low end. Otherwise its just a nasty equal sided box with a fundamental mode of 50 hz. We need at least an easy 100 dB at 30 hz. More would be better.
@Scott L I prefer QB3 alignments and was clear about this. That's why I'm looking for drivers with very low Fs, medium Qts and a suspension without a big rubber surround. I just asked if someone used the drivers I mentioned. I didn't want to be schooled on how to implement everything or to be picked apart in knowledge base and theory. I'm not contesting anything your saying, other than I'm approaching it differently. I just wanted some opinions on these Dayton drivers. Thats it... nothing more.
Another thread shot to death because of not wanting to be told how to do something. I'll ask for the advice or help if I want it. I'm not stupid either and have done this stuff for a long time. I just don't have the need to lecture and correct everyone who disagrees or does things differently.
Another thread shot to death because of not wanting to be told how to do something. I'll ask for the advice or help if I want it. I'm not stupid either and have done this stuff for a long time. I just don't have the need to lecture and correct everyone who disagrees or does things differently.
Again….i think your misunderstanding the intent of the responses or advise given to you. Without insult, your ‘experimentation’ with drivers such as the Dayton not best suited to your goals has been performed countless times across decades of endless rooms, venues and theaters…..there’s nothing to be gained here and no new positive experiences to be shared. Folks here come here with the intent on being helpful for the most part while there may be a select few who wish to pontificate how smart they are…….i’m not one of those folks. I’ve been actively working in this industry for over 40 years and like the insurance commercial….‘I’ve seen a thing or two…..sharing those practical experiences seems more like a responsibility to me than anything else. I LOVE a good experiment though…..let’s see what we can f¥€k with next!!! lol……like quad OB 18’s in a mixing room or 4 manifolds of quad 15’s backloaded into an attic through the ceiling for the ultimate infinite baffle…….till the frames on the vinyl window sashes exceeded their usefulness.
So if I come across as not helpful, my intention was to keep you from buying these drivers not based on their performance but their use case which doesn’t fit your goals as originally stated. To that degree hopefully I have been helpful and you intend to just do whatever you have a mind to do……and I can respect that……I’m human too and have performed that routine too many times to admit. Enjoy and best of luck!
So if I come across as not helpful, my intention was to keep you from buying these drivers not based on their performance but their use case which doesn’t fit your goals as originally stated. To that degree hopefully I have been helpful and you intend to just do whatever you have a mind to do……and I can respect that……I’m human too and have performed that routine too many times to admit. Enjoy and best of luck!
Last edited:
Well I'm just going to be the guinea pig and try these damn drivers to see how they do. As long as the specs are close and the motors are quiet, they may be a hidden gem. I'll post back once I know have more info.
To everyone else needing to tell me I'm doing things wrong, please just ignore my posts from now on. I'm just a stupid fool who wants to push the envelope and not conform to this awful world of people who put down those coloring outside of the lines.
To everyone else needing to tell me I'm doing things wrong, please just ignore my posts from now on. I'm just a stupid fool who wants to push the envelope and not conform to this awful world of people who put down those coloring outside of the lines.
@mayhem13 I appreciate the feedback and explanation. I genuinely appreciate your input, but I do things differently and have other various reasons for not agreeing with most so called experts I've ran into over the years. I let people make up their own mind when it comes to driver choices. Thats mainly due to my own prejudices in driver designs and specs based on how they do in the real world.
I'm very picky with bass. More so than 99% of people who claim they are audiophiles or professionals in this field. I do things differently than others claiming to have figured out what works and what doesn't. I'm very allergic to people who need to advise against my own will. Thats how I just am. I offer my.knowledge only if someone welcomes it. Its not easy to be quiet when you see or hear something wrong, I've walked out of live concerts when the sound was unbearable more than a few times. Most of them are awful and people just don't seem to care.
The point is I just prefer my way of doing things and try to be respectful of other ideas, sometimes seeing a better or easier way of doing something. Its just exhausting when people have to tell you you're wrong and get upset when you don't agree. I have no issues with anyone who has a different idea or way, as long as it doesn't affect me or my own will.
I'm very picky with bass. More so than 99% of people who claim they are audiophiles or professionals in this field. I do things differently than others claiming to have figured out what works and what doesn't. I'm very allergic to people who need to advise against my own will. Thats how I just am. I offer my.knowledge only if someone welcomes it. Its not easy to be quiet when you see or hear something wrong, I've walked out of live concerts when the sound was unbearable more than a few times. Most of them are awful and people just don't seem to care.
The point is I just prefer my way of doing things and try to be respectful of other ideas, sometimes seeing a better or easier way of doing something. Its just exhausting when people have to tell you you're wrong and get upset when you don't agree. I have no issues with anyone who has a different idea or way, as long as it doesn't affect me or my own will.
@YSDR The main reason for preferring unassisted alignments is due to not wanting to push the low end output significantly below driver Fs. I'm fairly adamant about this despite common practice of boosting below Fs, unless the driver is in a sealed or reflex bandpass enclosure. This is also to avoid the need for a steep subsonic filter to keep the cone from launching with unknown music that has severe dynamic range and/or DC offset after the converters. There are exceptions, but using assisted alignments generally Isn’t my preference.
So you don't count on any LF room gain?
Steep filtering below Fb is recommended, whether assisted or not.
Steep filtering below Fb is recommended, whether assisted or not.
My only experience with Dayton drivers was with the PA385S-8. It performed as it's specs would suggest, the motor was quiet enough to use push pull, but it's harmonic distortion was far higher than the B&C and LAB 12" drivers I'd used.
Worst epoxy stink at high power I'd ever smelled, took a long time to get rid of that..
Anyway, different driver from 10 years ago, but same company and general construction.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/compact-2x15-ppsl-using-dayton-pa385-8-drivers.255010/
The BMS 18n862 would definitely be my choice for spending your money for a guaranteed low distortion unassisted 25Hz F3 with no room gain 😉
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/v-twin-double-18-bass-reflex-build.410229/
Art
@weltersys Thanks Art for this info. I agree about the BMS woofer. Its my first choice if the money wasn't an issue.
I suspect the Chinese Dayton stuff has to have some sort of short cuts taken to make them as cheap as they are. I don't like that awful epoxy smell either and don't think I'd want to get stuck being exposed to it in my home.
What do you think of the B&C 18PS100 or 18TBX100?
I suspect the Chinese Dayton stuff has to have some sort of short cuts taken to make them as cheap as they are. I don't like that awful epoxy smell either and don't think I'd want to get stuck being exposed to it in my home.
What do you think of the B&C 18PS100 or 18TBX100?
These two B&C are very similar to the JBL 2268HPL that you want to replace. At least in the LF (T/S parameters) part.
Their Fs and Qts is about the same but their Vas is lower, so you get a similar F3, F6 in smaller box with them, compared to the 2268HPL.
But if you don't want to use Fb below their Fs (you said you don't want), you wouldn't get the desired 20Hz response from them.
Their Fs and Qts is about the same but their Vas is lower, so you get a similar F3, F6 in smaller box with them, compared to the 2268HPL.
But if you don't want to use Fb below their Fs (you said you don't want), you wouldn't get the desired 20Hz response from them.
Last edited:
Keeping out of the application debate and just to suggest drivers of interest. Have you looked at the Beyma 15LEX1600Nd? I've used these in a project for a customer and they are a very serious driver with excellent acoustic performance. They are also available as an 18" & 21" if you feel the 15" is inadequate.
The 18n862 is indeed the woofer to go to when good low end extension with reasonable size is aked for. In a Bessel tuning it would go to f3=29 Hz and f6=22Hz with a Vb of 270 liters and an fb of 22 Hz. It belongs to those 18"ers with the lowest THD measured by Vance Dickason.
Somewhere between this one and your JBL 2268 is the Beyma 18PWB1000/FE. It could do -3dB at 32 Hz and -6dB at 24 Hz in about 240 liters also in a Bessel tuning.
Did you mention how much SPL you need at sub frequencies ? It makes quite a difference if you just want to have them hearable in order to find LF faults in a recording or if you want to enjoy earthquakes etc. Each one is a valid target but depends on one's individual needs. If just the extension is asked for but not a lot of SPL then put your JBLs in closed boxes and EQ them flat. At least as an experiment this wouldn't be too expensive and not very time-consuming. And you would have much less group delay distortion.
Last but not least: If you don't skimp on Vb even your JBLs can go low in a reflex box.
Regards
Charles
Somewhere between this one and your JBL 2268 is the Beyma 18PWB1000/FE. It could do -3dB at 32 Hz and -6dB at 24 Hz in about 240 liters also in a Bessel tuning.
Did you mention how much SPL you need at sub frequencies ? It makes quite a difference if you just want to have them hearable in order to find LF faults in a recording or if you want to enjoy earthquakes etc. Each one is a valid target but depends on one's individual needs. If just the extension is asked for but not a lot of SPL then put your JBLs in closed boxes and EQ them flat. At least as an experiment this wouldn't be too expensive and not very time-consuming. And you would have much less group delay distortion.
Last but not least: If you don't skimp on Vb even your JBLs can go low in a reflex box.
Regards
Charles
I don’t know if it helps, but I have been using a pair of the 18s in a PA for 5 years and am delighted with them.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-18SW1200N-8-18-Professional-Neodymium-295-644
Build quality is nice and kind of pretty, if that matters. 🙂 Mine are in a slightly undersized BR box used as woofers, not subs. They play down into the mid 30s outdoors. But they don't play very high - it’s a stretch to cross them @500Hz to a 300 Hz horn with BMS coaxial CD. That would not matter for subwoofer use.
I am seriously considering replacing the twelve 18” subs with these drivers. Or maybe the Dayton 21”. I like the drivers.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-18SW1200N-8-18-Professional-Neodymium-295-644
Build quality is nice and kind of pretty, if that matters. 🙂 Mine are in a slightly undersized BR box used as woofers, not subs. They play down into the mid 30s outdoors. But they don't play very high - it’s a stretch to cross them @500Hz to a 300 Hz horn with BMS coaxial CD. That would not matter for subwoofer use.
I am seriously considering replacing the twelve 18” subs with these drivers. Or maybe the Dayton 21”. I like the drivers.