cbdb said:
The frequency response of both amps are plotted in an earlier post. (pdf files).
Increased levels of fifth, seventh and ninth overtones will not be revealed in the frequency response.
As Hugh mentions, these are possibly responsible for the sibilance, some might call it a brighter or crisper sound. Be it as it may, they sound different, not better nor worse....
Glen,
no disrespect to your knowledge and capabilities as an acclaimed audio designer.
The purpose of this thread was why the two topologies sound different, not about designing super audiophile amps using four transistors.
Kindly note that the amplifiers was supposed to be identical in almost every respect as to remove any uncertainty of effect of varying components and the like, thus a simple comparison between the taste of sweet apples and that of sour apples. Either could be nice depending on your preference.
I guess some could argue that the type of capacitors in the bootstrap is not optimized for the purpose either.
Nor are the resistors or taking into account what affect the PCB has. In fact I even kept the PCB layout as identical as practically possible.
Furthermore, simulators use pure mathematics of the models presented, and these models are perfect in every way by virtue of the numbers entered, whether the models are accurate or not they are the same.
One could use Montecarlo to take tolerances and component spread into consideration, but I think listening reveals most characteristics.
Cheers
Nico
no disrespect to your knowledge and capabilities as an acclaimed audio designer.
The purpose of this thread was why the two topologies sound different, not about designing super audiophile amps using four transistors.
Kindly note that the amplifiers was supposed to be identical in almost every respect as to remove any uncertainty of effect of varying components and the like, thus a simple comparison between the taste of sweet apples and that of sour apples. Either could be nice depending on your preference.
I guess some could argue that the type of capacitors in the bootstrap is not optimized for the purpose either.
Nor are the resistors or taking into account what affect the PCB has. In fact I even kept the PCB layout as identical as practically possible.
Furthermore, simulators use pure mathematics of the models presented, and these models are perfect in every way by virtue of the numbers entered, whether the models are accurate or not they are the same.
One could use Montecarlo to take tolerances and component spread into consideration, but I think listening reveals most characteristics.
Cheers
Nico
homemodder said:
If I remember correctly his name was Gunther Steinbach. Rumor has it that his tube amplifiers are exported as high end to Germany from where it is distributed into Europe and USA.
I have come across an advert in one of the Stereo Magazines that has made in Germany embossed on the gold name plate.
Personally I never liked the sound of his tube amplifiers although some swear by it.
I maintain that it is difficult to teach a musician what his instrument is supposed to sound like.
There are some obnoxious tube noobs that are under the impression that their equipment sounds better that real life - they still have a lot to learn.
Nico
Hi Nico
Regarding tubes I think some like the errors a amp produces. I sometimes fall into the trap of falling for a certain amps sound, its so sweet,warm and wow the sounstage. The thing is it is far from being accurate to what can be heard if one was to visit a music hall and listen to the real instruments live. So there is a contradiction of the amp sounds good versus the amp sounds close to the sound that is produced by real instruments. For example I ll metion the hiraga amp, I love its seductive sound but then I did a little test. I listened directly to a cdplayers output via a buffer with headphones and next to the hiraga with the same buffer after the cdplayer and same headphones, offcourse the volume was adjusted on cdplayer for the headphones to be able to handle the output. Needless to say there was a great difference. With the hiraga the sound was much sweeter and had an enormous soundstage and I realy liked it, but how can this be if the cdplayer doesnt have the same sound. The only conclusion I can make is that the hiraga circuit is responsible and creating this sound, but it is not a accurate amplification of the original signal, yet I like the sound. The hiraga doesnt measure well at all.
Some of these tube amps have the same effect, while being very inaccurate they sometimes improve the sound by creating and adding to the sound that make them very pleasureable to listen to. I dont know if one should call them good amps or not. Are they accurate and true to what real instumenents sound like ??, some are very far off, but by adding some effects to an inaccurate source such as cdplayers they sometimes make the overall sound be closer to the sound of the real thing, others make the sound a pleasure to listen to while being very far off the mark of being aything true to the real thing, but some love it that way.
If one thinks hard enough one can see the corrolation between the comeback of tubes and the advent of the cdplayer. Cdplayers have a particular bad flaw, cold and hard matallic sound, and its exactly here where tubes excel. For me a amp should be as close as possible to wire with gain but tradeoffs have to be made so A amp that sounds a bit warmer is better for me when coupled with cdplayers. Vinuyl for me still rules despite the odd scrath. I heard a tube amp a couple of years back that was very accurate though and excellent sounding, but we were listening to vinuyl and at low powers. I think too much emphasis is put on how a amp sounds like, the source is just as important. Another small experiment i did once was to connect a cheap teac cdplayer to my electrocompaniet monoblocks, the sound was real awful
yet its brilliant with a marantz cd11. However the teac player with the hiraga amp sounds not too bad. 
Steinbach doesnt ring a bell but, it was a small company and they definetly had speakers and mosfet amps too. It could be that they dropped the mosfets and speakers and now only manufacture tube amps. If they are out in that area it is most probably them. Thanks for the info, Im trying to locate a lost buddy that was with me at wits, and some people told me he went to work for them. Ill try give them a call, Im sure Ill be able to find a number with that name.
Regards
Alex
Regarding tubes I think some like the errors a amp produces. I sometimes fall into the trap of falling for a certain amps sound, its so sweet,warm and wow the sounstage. The thing is it is far from being accurate to what can be heard if one was to visit a music hall and listen to the real instruments live. So there is a contradiction of the amp sounds good versus the amp sounds close to the sound that is produced by real instruments. For example I ll metion the hiraga amp, I love its seductive sound but then I did a little test. I listened directly to a cdplayers output via a buffer with headphones and next to the hiraga with the same buffer after the cdplayer and same headphones, offcourse the volume was adjusted on cdplayer for the headphones to be able to handle the output. Needless to say there was a great difference. With the hiraga the sound was much sweeter and had an enormous soundstage and I realy liked it, but how can this be if the cdplayer doesnt have the same sound. The only conclusion I can make is that the hiraga circuit is responsible and creating this sound, but it is not a accurate amplification of the original signal, yet I like the sound. The hiraga doesnt measure well at all.
Some of these tube amps have the same effect, while being very inaccurate they sometimes improve the sound by creating and adding to the sound that make them very pleasureable to listen to. I dont know if one should call them good amps or not. Are they accurate and true to what real instumenents sound like ??, some are very far off, but by adding some effects to an inaccurate source such as cdplayers they sometimes make the overall sound be closer to the sound of the real thing, others make the sound a pleasure to listen to while being very far off the mark of being aything true to the real thing, but some love it that way.
If one thinks hard enough one can see the corrolation between the comeback of tubes and the advent of the cdplayer. Cdplayers have a particular bad flaw, cold and hard matallic sound, and its exactly here where tubes excel. For me a amp should be as close as possible to wire with gain but tradeoffs have to be made so A amp that sounds a bit warmer is better for me when coupled with cdplayers. Vinuyl for me still rules despite the odd scrath. I heard a tube amp a couple of years back that was very accurate though and excellent sounding, but we were listening to vinuyl and at low powers. I think too much emphasis is put on how a amp sounds like, the source is just as important. Another small experiment i did once was to connect a cheap teac cdplayer to my electrocompaniet monoblocks, the sound was real awful
yet its brilliant with a marantz cd11. However the teac player with the hiraga amp sounds not too bad. Steinbach doesnt ring a bell but, it was a small company and they definetly had speakers and mosfet amps too. It could be that they dropped the mosfets and speakers and now only manufacture tube amps. If they are out in that area it is most probably them. Thanks for the info, Im trying to locate a lost buddy that was with me at wits, and some people told me he went to work for them. Ill try give them a call, Im sure Ill be able to find a number with that name.
Regards
Alex
Bootstrapping
is a lot better than many think.
This is my conclusion from both simulations/circuit designs and from reading good audio peoples posts.
I can only speculate in why bootstrap does well.
From a strict THD and data figures bootstrap can not fully match current source.
But in fact bootstrap is more simple to use. And have less many active components = Transistors + psu biased voltage references.
One exception is JFET (* or Depletion-mode MOSFETs) current sources.
These are the current sources I use, if I can.
* Depletion-mode_MOSFETs
is a lot better than many think.
This is my conclusion from both simulations/circuit designs and from reading good audio peoples posts.
I can only speculate in why bootstrap does well.
From a strict THD and data figures bootstrap can not fully match current source.
But in fact bootstrap is more simple to use. And have less many active components = Transistors + psu biased voltage references.
One exception is JFET (* or Depletion-mode MOSFETs) current sources.
These are the current sources I use, if I can.
* Depletion-mode_MOSFETs
lineup,
excuse me, I didn`t quite catch that. What is your conclusion from both simulations/circuit designs and from reading good audio peoples posts, is bootstrapping a lot better than many think from a strict THD and data figures than JFET (* or Depletion-mode MOSFET), when you use it, if you can, because it`s simplier?
excuse me, I didn`t quite catch that. What is your conclusion from both simulations/circuit designs and from reading good audio peoples posts, is bootstrapping a lot better than many think from a strict THD and data figures than JFET (* or Depletion-mode MOSFET), when you use it, if you can, because it`s simplier?
Hi Guys,
I think the conclusion that I came to is that the differences are very subtle. Although the differences are noticed almost immediately it is difficult to choose one design above the other. Each reveals characteristics that set it apart from the other.
The bootstrap sounds a little "floppier" than the CCS, but sounds easier in the mid/high band while the CCS may appear a bit "tighter" in the bass but has a little edginess in the mid/highs.
The Bootstrap although being a little "floppier" does give a very convincing performance to solos passages on a contra bass and listening to it you can discriminate quite easily that the player is using the side of his index finger while the same passage using the CCS sounded as if it was played with the finger tip. I listened and watched the Video performance of Brian Bomberg which confirmed this very clearly.
I think that being a musician (of the same instrument) one listens in a different way because when playing yourself you often want to bleed the same sound character from an instrument that you heard in a performance and liked.
Now these findings are neither conclusive nor objective and a Rocker may have a completely different view of the situation since a lot of the sound character is produced by amplifiers driven into hard clipping to produce those sounds from a guitar for instance. Moreover bass drums are stuffed with different materials, news paper, wet towel to produce the rocking bass kick.
So the debate remains totally open still......
I think the conclusion that I came to is that the differences are very subtle. Although the differences are noticed almost immediately it is difficult to choose one design above the other. Each reveals characteristics that set it apart from the other.
The bootstrap sounds a little "floppier" than the CCS, but sounds easier in the mid/high band while the CCS may appear a bit "tighter" in the bass but has a little edginess in the mid/highs.
The Bootstrap although being a little "floppier" does give a very convincing performance to solos passages on a contra bass and listening to it you can discriminate quite easily that the player is using the side of his index finger while the same passage using the CCS sounded as if it was played with the finger tip. I listened and watched the Video performance of Brian Bomberg which confirmed this very clearly.
I think that being a musician (of the same instrument) one listens in a different way because when playing yourself you often want to bleed the same sound character from an instrument that you heard in a performance and liked.
Now these findings are neither conclusive nor objective and a Rocker may have a completely different view of the situation since a lot of the sound character is produced by amplifiers driven into hard clipping to produce those sounds from a guitar for instance. Moreover bass drums are stuffed with different materials, news paper, wet towel to produce the rocking bass kick.
So the debate remains totally open still......
I know of three types of listeners (there may be more) but the first type enjoys music. They can hear a song played on any equipment and sing along, tap a foot, play drums on their knees, mimic the guitarist, etc. You see them in the mornings driving to work. These type of listeners are the majority.
Then there are the totally subjective types who don't actually listen to music at all, they listen to equipment. These people play short passages of anything that impressed them with the sound that the equipment made.
Thy try to characterize what they hear by virtue of the component used in the equipment although there are a legion of other factors that distorts the true nature of the sound.
They also want to tell you how something should or should not sound. That if your speakers are not seven foot apart toed in by 11.3 degrees and 9.756 inches from the wall and the listener is not sitting on an internationally accepted standard straight back kitchen chair staring straight ahead, you cannot hear the system performing properly.
The third type (non-audiophiles) listen to the performance, they are the people who would go to a live performance and enjoy what they hear, how they heard it.
They want to experience what characterize the performance. These are they type of guy that will follow a performer because how he/she performed and form a closeness with the character.
These types want to come home, put the CD on and have a similar experience. If they heard it in a jazz club it must sound like a jazz club, you want to smell the smoke and cheap perfume mixed with sweat, you want to see the haze, you want to relive the same experience, these are the people that matter to me.
Now you throw a Bootstrap vs CCS into this crowd and see where you get to
Then there are the totally subjective types who don't actually listen to music at all, they listen to equipment. These people play short passages of anything that impressed them with the sound that the equipment made.
Thy try to characterize what they hear by virtue of the component used in the equipment although there are a legion of other factors that distorts the true nature of the sound.
They also want to tell you how something should or should not sound. That if your speakers are not seven foot apart toed in by 11.3 degrees and 9.756 inches from the wall and the listener is not sitting on an internationally accepted standard straight back kitchen chair staring straight ahead, you cannot hear the system performing properly.
The third type (non-audiophiles) listen to the performance, they are the people who would go to a live performance and enjoy what they hear, how they heard it.
They want to experience what characterize the performance. These are they type of guy that will follow a performer because how he/she performed and form a closeness with the character.
These types want to come home, put the CD on and have a similar experience. If they heard it in a jazz club it must sound like a jazz club, you want to smell the smoke and cheap perfume mixed with sweat, you want to see the haze, you want to relive the same experience, these are the people that matter to me.
Now you throw a Bootstrap vs CCS into this crowd and see where you get to
Nico
I’m none of the types you are describing.
I am both type 1 and 3, but also a lot more.
I love music and listen to various kind of music every day.
I have been touring as a sound engineer for about 25 years, I don’t do sound any longer because it was difficult to be on tour more than 300 day per year with a family and not seeing the kids grow up.
IMO the best power amp (and loudspeaker) should not have any sound by their own, in other words they should not colour the sound, but just reproduce the input signal.
I don’t understand the arguing that an amp that reproduces the signal better than another amp should be less musically, is it so that a distorted sound is more musically than a “perfect” sound.
To compare different topologies I think it is important to make the best out of each topology and then compare.
I don’t think it is right to ask people to find another thread if they don’t support your conclusion and have some questions and another view on things.
Stinius
I’m none of the types you are describing.
I am both type 1 and 3, but also a lot more.
I love music and listen to various kind of music every day.
I have been touring as a sound engineer for about 25 years, I don’t do sound any longer because it was difficult to be on tour more than 300 day per year with a family and not seeing the kids grow up.
IMO the best power amp (and loudspeaker) should not have any sound by their own, in other words they should not colour the sound, but just reproduce the input signal.
I don’t understand the arguing that an amp that reproduces the signal better than another amp should be less musically, is it so that a distorted sound is more musically than a “perfect” sound.
To compare different topologies I think it is important to make the best out of each topology and then compare.
I don’t think it is right to ask people to find another thread if they don’t support your conclusion and have some questions and another view on things.
Stinius
stinius said:
Stinius, I agree with almost all your comments. An amplifier/speaker should not color the sound, but, alas they do you can see it in this thread, a very small change changes the character, or as you say coloration.
To compare the topologies it is important to make the best amp - define best, but the topologies differ?
Now coming from an analytical engineering environment (Hewlett Packard) you can measure absolute or (relative) by comparison. Identical amplifiers, the best or the worst does not matter, what you should and do see is the difference because all else remains the identical.
Would it be any different if we were to spend several million dollars to research and design the best amp of each topology, provided we have a good grasp of what the best entail and then put a debate together.
I think it would result in exactly the same. Some would prefer the best amp with CCS others would appreciate the best amp with bootstrap, all that has happened is someone is out of pocket of a few million bucks and got no definitive answer.
My point remains that I am convinced that there are those who would prefer one character of an amplifier, speaker, etc while others would prefer another.
Being a recording engineer is a valuable experience and in your experience you may have wondered why Rock guitarists grow their thumb fingernail and play with it. Now an amplifier that has the tendency to generate more odd order products would emphasize this particular sound while an amplifier with say even order products my soften this effect. Sow as a recording engineer, you know what the artist is trying to convey and you adjust the controls accordingly so that it sounds acceptable to you.
This is where the sound chain begin and it eventually end in air being compressed in our living rooms trying to experience what you have created, whether this was correct or incorrect it does not matter because you are seen as a musician of equal or higher caliber that the artist performing. You are in effect tailoring the sound to what you perceive customers would like.... YES/NO
But the debate is now going in a different direction and away from the simple CCS/Bootstrap, What has made a significant impression here is that four out of five designers prefer the bootstrap, now is it because they are in my last category of people who actually looks at the performance holistically or are the audiophile that believes in only a final solution whatever it may be, one day there will exist such a final solution.
Kindest regards to all, and sorry Glen, I guess I was out of line a little, but hey give us something that you feel is workable and we start again.
Nico
Nico
"Stinius, I agree with almost all your comments. An amplifier/speaker should not color the sound, but, alas they do you can see it in this thread, a very small change changes the character, or as you say coloration."
I don't think we disagree very much.
"To compare the topologies it is important to make the best amp - define best, but the topologies differ?"
To define the best amp, that's an amp that don't colour the sound in any way, (with unlimited powersupply). And yes the topologies differ.
"Would it be any different if we were to spend several million dollars to research and design the best amp of each topology, provided we have a good grasp of what the best entail and then put a debate together."
No that was not what I was trying to communicate.
"I think it would result in exactly the same. Some would prefer the best amp with CCS others would appreciate the best amp with bootstrap, all that has happened is someone is out of pocket of a few million bucks and got no definitive answer."
I agree.
"Being a recording engineer is a valuable experience and in your experience you may have wondered why Rock guitarists grow their thumb fingernail and play with it. Now an amplifier that has the tendency to generate more odd order products would emphasize this particular sound while an amplifier with say even order products my soften this effect. Sow as a recording engineer, you know what the artist is trying to convey and you adjust the controls accordingly so that it sounds acceptable to you."
I have done some records, but prefer to work with live sound.
I always try to reproduce what the artist is doing and to communicate that to the listeners, I don't make it sound stereotype and acceptable to me, every artist has it's own sound and I don't think it's right to try to control it and colour that sound, but I will always try to use my experience to make it sound as good as possible "in my ears".
"This is where the sound chain begin and it eventually end in air being compressed in our living rooms trying to experience what you have created, whether this was correct or incorrect it does not matter because you are seen as a musician of equal or higher caliber that the artist performing. You are in effect tailoring the sound to what you perceive customers would like.... YES/NO"
Yes/No
In the rest we agree.
Stinius
"Stinius, I agree with almost all your comments. An amplifier/speaker should not color the sound, but, alas they do you can see it in this thread, a very small change changes the character, or as you say coloration."
I don't think we disagree very much.
"To compare the topologies it is important to make the best amp - define best, but the topologies differ?"
To define the best amp, that's an amp that don't colour the sound in any way, (with unlimited powersupply). And yes the topologies differ.
"Would it be any different if we were to spend several million dollars to research and design the best amp of each topology, provided we have a good grasp of what the best entail and then put a debate together."
No that was not what I was trying to communicate.
"I think it would result in exactly the same. Some would prefer the best amp with CCS others would appreciate the best amp with bootstrap, all that has happened is someone is out of pocket of a few million bucks and got no definitive answer."
I agree.
"Being a recording engineer is a valuable experience and in your experience you may have wondered why Rock guitarists grow their thumb fingernail and play with it. Now an amplifier that has the tendency to generate more odd order products would emphasize this particular sound while an amplifier with say even order products my soften this effect. Sow as a recording engineer, you know what the artist is trying to convey and you adjust the controls accordingly so that it sounds acceptable to you."
I have done some records, but prefer to work with live sound.
I always try to reproduce what the artist is doing and to communicate that to the listeners, I don't make it sound stereotype and acceptable to me, every artist has it's own sound and I don't think it's right to try to control it and colour that sound, but I will always try to use my experience to make it sound as good as possible "in my ears".
"This is where the sound chain begin and it eventually end in air being compressed in our living rooms trying to experience what you have created, whether this was correct or incorrect it does not matter because you are seen as a musician of equal or higher caliber that the artist performing. You are in effect tailoring the sound to what you perceive customers would like.... YES/NO"
Yes/No
In the rest we agree.
Stinius
Nico Ras said:
G.Kleinschmidt said:
Can we all just get along?
Come on, shake hands and make up.
Bootstrap. I used it in my amp because that was how I started - with Rod Elliot's P68. It was bootstrapped.
When I wanted to make an amp that would run on 56V rails (I had a 40-0-40 transformer), I tried to adapt the Symasym but I lacked the understanding to do this on my own so I asked questions on the Symasym thread there. I got good advice: "go and buy the correct transformer" and "you can't convert this wondrous amp to run on that brutal power" or "go find a design that will use that transformer" - very helpful.
That was when I said "to hell with this" and decided to try to design my own and naturally I relied heavily on Rod Elliot's designs. It evolved, with a lot of help from members here, but I left the bootstrap in. In my mind it gave the amp a contrast to the higher design ideas (cascoded input, EF on the VAS). It was rough right next to refined.
Silly story, I know.
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