annoying sounds
🙂 hello everybody,
this is the 1st time i have read this thread and i find all the replies quite informative. this what i do when i have bought a cd that gave those annoying sound, (when i say annoying it's a sound that i cant tolerate) i bring it to a friends house (he has a better equipment than i have) play it and it sound the same this is what happens
and straight to the trash can.
i do believe there are poor quality recordings and fake cd specially in my country. you cant tell the fake from the original.😱 🙁
🙂 hello everybody,
this is the 1st time i have read this thread and i find all the replies quite informative. this what i do when i have bought a cd that gave those annoying sound, (when i say annoying it's a sound that i cant tolerate) i bring it to a friends house (he has a better equipment than i have) play it and it sound the same this is what happens
and straight to the trash can.i do believe there are poor quality recordings and fake cd specially in my country. you cant tell the fake from the original.😱 🙁
Re: Re: 1x1x1x1x1=1, 1.1x1.1x1.1x1.1x......... = infinity
Originally posted by purplepeople
Okay, then... is this what you are saying?
Making the individual drivers exhibit flat impedence and making the overall loudspeaker appear resistive means that no energy is flung back at the amp to cause ringing conditions.
Most high NFB amplifiers measure pretty well perfect into high value (30 ohms and more) resistive load.
Connect a reactive load and dynamically changing signal and things can go pear shaped real quick.
At audio frequencies the wavelengths are too long, but add HF/RF artifacts/junk from digital sources and longish interconnects and reflections can become a problem for the send and recieve stages.
Connecting cables can have strong apparent character because of differing electrical values (R, L, C, DA etc) and consequent diferering conditions for send and recieve stages.
Differing parasitic values can explain strong audibility (or not) of passive components according to which stage they are in.
Hope this helps,
Eric.
Originally posted by purplepeople
Okay, then... is this what you are saying?
Yup. RC and RLC shunt networks improves things bigtime.
Making the individual drivers exhibit flat impedence and making the overall loudspeaker appear resistive means that no energy is flung back at the amp to cause ringing conditions.
Not by definition, but many (most) high NFB amplifiers ring with reactive loading.
Most high NFB amplifiers measure pretty well perfect into high value (30 ohms and more) resistive load.
Connect a reactive load and dynamically changing signal and things can go pear shaped real quick.
They can do, but not by definition.
Yes in that they keep resonance exciting frequencies out of the individual drivers, and provide strong driver motional damping out of band.
Depends on the source and load circuitry behaviour.
At audio frequencies the wavelengths are too long, but add HF/RF artifacts/junk from digital sources and longish interconnects and reflections can become a problem for the send and recieve stages.
Connecting cables can have strong apparent character because of differing electrical values (R, L, C, DA etc) and consequent diferering conditions for send and recieve stages.
Differing parasitic values can explain strong audibility (or not) of passive components according to which stage they are in.
Yup. The further upstream clipping occurs and according to the behaviour of the downstream circuitry, the greater the logarithmic ? effect.
Bright sounding speakers are adding emphasis in the problem areas and will make upstream dirt more audible - often annoyingly so.
Hope this helps,
Eric.
True Story.
I have had musos tell me that they run a bedside FM radio deliberately tuned off station to provide tinnitus masking so as to get to sleep.AMT-freak said:
I Don't Worry About Money, I Just Dream About It..........****
I just have dreams of owning one - I did not notice the fan noise.
Btw, do these turn up second hand, and at what sort of prices ?.
Eric.
**** - Song lyrics - Barflys, Adelaide.
Nelson,Nelson Pass said:
I just have dreams of owning one - I did not notice the fan noise.
Btw, do these turn up second hand, and at what sort of prices ?.
Eric.
**** - Song lyrics - Barflys, Adelaide.
I own a CD by a famous Romainian soprano. One one of the tracks (of the otherwise fine recording) there are two places where you can hear such lisping "s".
Played through a good amp it sound just as such: lisping, caused by the soloist (I still wonder how such things can happen at all with quality concious performers).
Played through a cheap IC amplifier this sounds more pronounced and seems to emerge from the whole width of the stereo triangle.
So I assume that it was originally caused by either the singer herself or an overdriven mic-preamp but seems to be exagerated by the type of amplifier (TIM ?).
Regards
Charles
Played through a good amp it sound just as such: lisping, caused by the soloist (I still wonder how such things can happen at all with quality concious performers).
Played through a cheap IC amplifier this sounds more pronounced and seems to emerge from the whole width of the stereo triangle.
So I assume that it was originally caused by either the singer herself or an overdriven mic-preamp but seems to be exagerated by the type of amplifier (TIM ?).
Regards
Charles
Lisping in recordings can be due to a few reasons. Sometimes, it's the artist. But it could also be due to other reasons like:
1) microphone frequency responses:
Microphones used for recording may not have flat response. Models like the Shure SM58 have treble boost for increased presence.
2) effects processors:
Over sweetening with aural exciters (like Aphex), can make a recording sound too bright.
3) quality of recording consoles, particularly the EQ sections.
So, when all these are combined, the end result is what we are getting.
If Celine Dion's "Let's talk about Love" is bad, Rod Stewart's "The Great American Songbook" is even worse. And for a combination of excessive treble boost with over processing, "Tequila Sunrise" from Eagles' - Hell freezes over.
1) microphone frequency responses:
Microphones used for recording may not have flat response. Models like the Shure SM58 have treble boost for increased presence.
2) effects processors:
Over sweetening with aural exciters (like Aphex), can make a recording sound too bright.
3) quality of recording consoles, particularly the EQ sections.
So, when all these are combined, the end result is what we are getting.
If Celine Dion's "Let's talk about Love" is bad, Rod Stewart's "The Great American Songbook" is even worse. And for a combination of excessive treble boost with over processing, "Tequila Sunrise" from Eagles' - Hell freezes over.
Very interesting. The other night I decided to change the way I was bypassing the tone control section in my amp. I had previously done it in a rather dodgy way where I had cut a jumper wire and run another wire to an earlier point in the preamp circuit, meaning that the other circuitry was still connected but the signal was being short circuited past it.
What I did the other night was desolder a nasty 22uF BP electro (between the volume op amp and the tone control op amp) and jumper straight from the output pin of the opamp to the 1uF metalised polypropeline cap on the input to the power amp. After doing this I noticed (only on TV stuff, my DVD/CD is off for repair at the moment) that S'sssss were much more pronounced. Now what I am wondering is was the 22uF electro cutting down the high freqs to such an extent that the S phenomonon was effectively being masked!!!
Maybe people who don't like this effect could stick some cheap and nasty electros in the signal path
(ducking and running).......
There is one more BP electro still in the sig path a 10uF one, I'm going to replace it with a 6.8uF metalised polyester I have, will be interesting to see if it becomes even more pronounced.
Just thought it was interesting hadn't read this thread before doing it, but seemed kind of relevant.
Regards,
Tony.
What I did the other night was desolder a nasty 22uF BP electro (between the volume op amp and the tone control op amp) and jumper straight from the output pin of the opamp to the 1uF metalised polypropeline cap on the input to the power amp. After doing this I noticed (only on TV stuff, my DVD/CD is off for repair at the moment) that S'sssss were much more pronounced. Now what I am wondering is was the 22uF electro cutting down the high freqs to such an extent that the S phenomonon was effectively being masked!!!
Maybe people who don't like this effect could stick some cheap and nasty electros in the signal path
(ducking and running)....... There is one more BP electro still in the sig path a 10uF one, I'm going to replace it with a 6.8uF metalised polyester I have, will be interesting to see if it becomes even more pronounced.
Just thought it was interesting hadn't read this thread before doing it, but seemed kind of relevant.
Regards,
Tony.
Regarding the Celine Dion CD, I have the feeling that it is herself who "shometimesh hash a shtrange pronounshiaishon" !
Regarding my classical CD with the lisping: It only happens twice on this particular CD withing the same song, the rest is fine (a dealer, where I was listening to a pair of speakers, wanted to get that one by himself).
I don't think that DECCA is using an aural exciter (or even an SM58) on a classical CD, but you'll never know. ;-) One problem might be the monitors used: They are usually B&W 8.. models on which many things sound beautiful but not always fully accurate IMHO.
Regards
Charles
Regarding my classical CD with the lisping: It only happens twice on this particular CD withing the same song, the rest is fine (a dealer, where I was listening to a pair of speakers, wanted to get that one by himself).
I don't think that DECCA is using an aural exciter (or even an SM58) on a classical CD, but you'll never know. ;-) One problem might be the monitors used: They are usually B&W 8.. models on which many things sound beautiful but not always fully accurate IMHO.
Regards
Charles
Wow, what an enlightening thread, gimme more!
This is all of particular interest to me, as I've been frustrated by this type of colouration for a long time now.
I have 'revealing' speakers and listen to all types of music, I experience this harsh upper-mid/lower-treble glare on nearly half the music I play, and on most of the rest if I turn it up loud enough!
Please tell me more about adding to my x-over to flatten impedance. Is it a Zobel network I might need? My x-over is 2-way D'apolitto with Seas H571 mid-bass and NoFerro 900 tweeter. The speaker is the Seas Pontus.
I am truly desperate for help! I've already increased tweeter attenuation by 0.18ohms, which helped, but any more will make it too dull! I changed my tweeter's series cap to a better one and slightly smaller value - again, this helped, but I still have a white glare on many vocals and 'screaming' electric guitars really scream - it hurts, literally.
Can anyone help me??? I plan on rolling off either mid-bass or the tweeter earlier, causing a dip where the trouble probably is - 2-3khz???
-Simon
This is all of particular interest to me, as I've been frustrated by this type of colouration for a long time now.
I have 'revealing' speakers and listen to all types of music, I experience this harsh upper-mid/lower-treble glare on nearly half the music I play, and on most of the rest if I turn it up loud enough!
Please tell me more about adding to my x-over to flatten impedance. Is it a Zobel network I might need? My x-over is 2-way D'apolitto with Seas H571 mid-bass and NoFerro 900 tweeter. The speaker is the Seas Pontus.
I am truly desperate for help! I've already increased tweeter attenuation by 0.18ohms, which helped, but any more will make it too dull! I changed my tweeter's series cap to a better one and slightly smaller value - again, this helped, but I still have a white glare on many vocals and 'screaming' electric guitars really scream - it hurts, literally.
Can anyone help me??? I plan on rolling off either mid-bass or the tweeter earlier, causing a dip where the trouble probably is - 2-3khz???
-Simon
At what frequency do you x-over ? And which filter-order are you using ? Your mentioning that the effect increases with volume leads to the assumption that you may stress your tweeter too much.
My aforementioned classic CD is also revealing in this respect, the voice quickly gets harsh when tweeters are stressed too much.
I did originally not use this one for testing this detail in particular, I simply used it because it is one of my favourite CDs.
When I was listening to, an otherwise very nice sounding, active two-way speaker about one year ago, I first realised this effect. And since then I use it for this purpose when going to audio exhibitions !
Regards
Charles
My aforementioned classic CD is also revealing in this respect, the voice quickly gets harsh when tweeters are stressed too much.
I did originally not use this one for testing this detail in particular, I simply used it because it is one of my favourite CDs.
When I was listening to, an otherwise very nice sounding, active two-way speaker about one year ago, I first realised this effect. And since then I use it for this purpose when going to audio exhibitions !
Regards
Charles
mcp said:
Good points. I have the impression that exciters are used more and more as every recording engineer seems to want just a bit more of it than the others. Although they were designed to add warmth and sweetness, they totally blur sounds like "s" and "sh".
Also, I've fixed a lot of pro gear and I was shocked at how little they cared about sound quality. I've seen single opamp microphone amplifiers with some 60dB gain and "equalizer sections" consisting of cheap ceramic capacitors and carbon film resistors grouped around a NJM4580. No, I'm not talking about the $79 DJ mixer from the guy next door. I'm talking about gear advertised to studio owners.
Talking about recordings, most live recordings are awful in that respect (having the Sting birthday concert from 2000 in mind).
another possibility, which has no bearing on the recording, is that the amp clips too much. as a SS amp clips, it generates lots of high frequency content (due to hard clipping). so you hear more "s" in a SS amp as you do in a tube.
In this respect, digital amps may have an advantage as one can program how a digital amp clips and make the clipping as graceful as possible.
In this respect, digital amps may have an advantage as one can program how a digital amp clips and make the clipping as graceful as possible.
"Over sweetening with aural exciters (like Aphex), can make a recording sound too bright. "
That HAS to be the understatement of the year🙂
They take the signal, half wave rectify it, apply some filtering, and mix that back with the original.....
Lukas
That HAS to be the understatement of the year🙂
They take the signal, half wave rectify it, apply some filtering, and mix that back with the original.....
Lukas
I own two exciters that are exact copies of the old Aphex B (don't ask me how I got them !!). We used them for a disco P.A. or live music. The effect was best, from a quality point of view, when switching off was more audible than switching it on.
Regards
Charles
Regards
Charles
I knew someone couldn't resist asking.
We got one for a ten day's trial and then made a 1:1 copy of it ! Simple as that.
Regards
Charles
We got one for a ten day's trial and then made a 1:1 copy of it ! Simple as that.
Regards
Charles
Reminds me of someone who got a pair of Accuphase M-2000 from his dealer for evaluation at home (50 Euros), took one of them apart, made hi-res photos of all PCBs and the wiring and came up with schematics and a nice set of (tweaked and optimized) clones three months later. 😀
Back to topic.
Those exciters can make a recording sound better (though not more natural - it's a effect unit after all). I have some records which are examples of a proper use of the Aphex. But still the concept is adding even order harmonics to the signal to give the sound a tube like charm.
Adding more energy to the signal in the high frequency range obviously reveals weaknesses of an audio system and leads to more of this annoying hiss.
Back to topic.
Those exciters can make a recording sound better (though not more natural - it's a effect unit after all). I have some records which are examples of a proper use of the Aphex. But still the concept is adding even order harmonics to the signal to give the sound a tube like charm.
Adding more energy to the signal in the high frequency range obviously reveals weaknesses of an audio system and leads to more of this annoying hiss.
Charles,
The speakers x over at about 2 or 3 khz (guessing by ear), they are a kit speaker so I don't know exactly 🙁
I think the x-over is 2nd order electrically, but maybe not! There is:
-8.2uf cap in series with tweeter + 0.82ohm resistor
(these changed to 8.0uf pp cap and 1ohm resistor - better, but still a bit glassy and bleached-sounding)
-large inductor in series with bass drivers
-10uf cap, probably in parallel with bass drivers
-33uf cap elsewhere
-smaller, I think in parallel with tweeter
-another resistor somewhere
I'm sorry I can't be much more useful than that! I bought the kits from Audiocom, here in the UK, and they've not put the page back up after redoing their website 🙁 I seem to have lost the x-over schematic too 🙁
Could it be I have a 3rd order x-over? Or a 2nd order with zobel network?
These speakers have cost me nearly £700 to make so far, so I'm really disapointed they aren't that good all-rounders 🙁
One more bit of info: the rest of the system is not the problem! CDP is heavily modded, amp is polite, cabling is all copper apart from some silver plated crap in the speakers (it will go soon).
Any ideas??
-Simon
ps - sorry this thing isn't 100% relevant to our topic, but it's sort of related and any info may help others with this typical harshness problem.
Here is a [German] page about the tweeter I have:
http://www.boxy-lautsprecher.de/index.html?target=p_545.html&lang=de
It says the resonant frequency is 900hz which I think is well away from my problem area. I think it suggests it can take 60watts, which is likely less than it gets before sounding harsh (total guess).
I would be willing to buy new tweeters if I thought it would fix my 'problem' and make my speakers sound lovely. Maybe some Seas Excel ones would fit the gap. I'm not sure they're the problem tho 🙁
My woofer is the Seas H571/W17PPI/other names too it seems!:
http://www.hifikit.se/show_prod.asp?id=1080
It seems to be x-ing not near it's limits, so this looks like it isn't the problem! This driver is detailed and tight, with excellent bass btw...
Any ideas with this extra info in mind?
Sorry to go on, but there'll be more yet 😉
-Simon
http://www.boxy-lautsprecher.de/index.html?target=p_545.html&lang=de
It says the resonant frequency is 900hz which I think is well away from my problem area. I think it suggests it can take 60watts, which is likely less than it gets before sounding harsh (total guess).
I would be willing to buy new tweeters if I thought it would fix my 'problem' and make my speakers sound lovely. Maybe some Seas Excel ones would fit the gap. I'm not sure they're the problem tho 🙁
My woofer is the Seas H571/W17PPI/other names too it seems!:
http://www.hifikit.se/show_prod.asp?id=1080
It seems to be x-ing not near it's limits, so this looks like it isn't the problem! This driver is detailed and tight, with excellent bass btw...
Any ideas with this extra info in mind?
Sorry to go on, but there'll be more yet 😉
-Simon
Is there absolutely no inductor in parallel with the tweeter ? In this case this would be a 1st order filter (electrically).
Maybe you can have another look !?
There is not much use in changing the tweeter, since this is already a very fine one.
Regards
Charles
Maybe you can have another look !?
There is not much use in changing the tweeter, since this is already a very fine one.
Regards
Charles
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