In any case, screeching es sounds a high major problem with modern microphone technology, and it's called hiss
Regarding "false highs", I was told by an audio store sales guy one time that when selling speakers, the ones that get favorable customer comments like "detailed" or "revealing" are inevitable over-bright. He confessed to secretly turning up the trebble control on the preamp a bit in order to make the sale with such a customer.
either i have a rather frightning misunderstanding of basic physics.......or there are a bunch of overzeolous audiophiles in our midst.....😉
whats all this about cables ading warmth or graininess.......as long as the cables can provide enough current for transients...there shouldnt be a diference between 120dollar cables or 10.......
i mean what the hecks the difference...the 120 ones have cheerleaders psycking up the atoms as they race back and forward?.....or maybe they have substitues sitting on a bench incase the other atoms get tired
!!!!
common....and whats all this about gold connectors......i mean unless your using your hifi in the shower...and are woried about rust....why!!!!WHY????
i think curtain poeple have to much money to spend...
i know give it to me....ill cheer ur atoms along!! yeah baby!!!!!.....
😀 seriously though.....
whats all this about cables ading warmth or graininess.......as long as the cables can provide enough current for transients...there shouldnt be a diference between 120dollar cables or 10.......
i mean what the hecks the difference...the 120 ones have cheerleaders psycking up the atoms as they race back and forward?.....or maybe they have substitues sitting on a bench incase the other atoms get tired
!!!!common....and whats all this about gold connectors......i mean unless your using your hifi in the shower...and are woried about rust....why!!!!WHY????
i think curtain poeple have to much money to spend...
i know give it to me....ill cheer ur atoms along!! yeah baby!!!!!.....
😀 seriously though.....
oh one more thing....unless u are hooking up cables in an arena....(then i can understand worries of resistance or capacitunce or inductance.....hmmmm...or....)
i wouldnt fret too much about one meter cable...from amp to your speaker....
but then again i could be wrong...
i wouldnt fret too much about one meter cable...from amp to your speaker....
but then again i could be wrong...
I'm afraid so. Either that or you've just not listened to a system which is affected by cable choice (speaker cable).alecwek said:
Misunderstanding is the keyword here! And yes it's about moving electrons all right. But, sorry to say, it's more complicated then that. Electrons move in a conductor but theit specific behaviour depends on the kind of material. Moreover electrons (when transporting energy with various speeds or frequencies) prefer to move along the outside of a conductor. So when using a good conductor, like copper, the behaviour will change over time as the material corrodes. No matter what the isolation is it WILL corrode! This effect is especially noticeable when using silver or silver coated copper. Over years its character changes.alecwek said:
And we have to do with another basic phenomena: fields! When a current flows you'll have a field around the conductor. This field has two consequencies. First there's the effect of the varying surface in multistrand cables. The second effect has to do with the material of isolation surrounding the conductor. PVC for instance is a real hindrance for moving fields.
A last remark: you don't need a lot of money to experience the relevance of the mentioned effects. Just try out a coaxial cable used for transmitters with "air" isolating the massive inner core from the shield. Use only the inner core for the loudspeaker connection, the shield may be connected (on one side!) to the chassis of the amp. This cable (called "Aircom") costs about 6 dollars per meter.
Have fun!
johnrtd said:
What behavior do you mean exactly? What excatly is the behavior of electrons in copper versus say silver?
Well, the transport current density tends to increase toward the outer portion of the conductor as frequency increases. But what really is the consequence of that at audio frequencies? You effectively end up with a frequency-dependent resistance which will result in a certain amount of attenuation and phase shift with increasing frequency.
How much attenuation and how much phase shift would be typical at audio frequencies?
How so? If the insulation prevents corrosive elements from reaching the copper, how is it able to corrode?
I recently did some electrical work on my home here and was stripping some wire that's over 50 years old now. Didn't show any signs of corrosion.
What effect is that exactly?
Sure, such materials will slow down the propagation velocity of the TEM wave. But so what? What would it matter if the propagation velocity was the speed of light or 10 miles per hour?
se
wait...so ud spend six dollar per meter...for cable that supplies power to ur speakers right?....so where does this power come from.....i bet...even though all your thoeries...of special cunducting matirial.....were true...ud still be degraded by the fact that all your signal chain...including your power suplly to the transistor being the same shitty a$$ quality as my speaker cables...i mean...the power needs to be supplied (to the transistor collecter ....or emitter...)as fast as it is being dished out (to the transistor emiter...or collector)....
and another thing....what are the real inductive effects of a speaker cable...which is only about two meters....hell my cable is only about 1 meter long......i mean COME ON....i knew id **** people off..with this one...dont get mad cause u wasted six dollars...it aint my fault...
arent all wires you buy made off copper.?...i mean siriously...arent they....i mean dyou guys have iron ore cables where u live.....
and remember that i did say that the wire should be thick enough to alow the .current flow .required...
PS...maybe uv noticed a change when you used ur six dollar cable...some people notice positvie effects after going on a steady regimen of sugar pills....anyway everyman to his own....
one last thing...umm..
peace out 😉 😀
and another thing....what are the real inductive effects of a speaker cable...which is only about two meters....hell my cable is only about 1 meter long......i mean COME ON....i knew id **** people off..with this one...dont get mad cause u wasted six dollars...it aint my fault...
arent all wires you buy made off copper.?...i mean siriously...arent they....i mean dyou guys have iron ore cables where u live.....
and remember that i did say that the wire should be thick enough to alow the .current flow .required...
PS...maybe uv noticed a change when you used ur six dollar cable...some people notice positvie effects after going on a steady regimen of sugar pills....anyway everyman to his own....
one last thing...umm..
peace out 😉 😀
i also mentioned that corrosion maybe a reason for high quality cables....especially at connectios....but i honestly fail to understand how an insulated cable can corrode....maybe the cheer leaders that are cheering the electrons on...have sneaked some oxygen molecules into the party....hmmm?
alecwek said:
A couple of posibilities: the insulator is actually gas permeable - air can pass through it, although slowly. Or, more likely, air penetrates at the ends of the insulation. unless the insulator makes a hermetic seal, there will be corrosion.
I have some 20 year old monster cable in the junk box that looks like it is steel, it is so corroded throughout its length. (I know, pitch it.) I have also noticed good old zip cord gets corroded at the ends after a year or so. Cut it back a few inches and voila! uncorroded wire.
Reminds me of something I heard on a hifishow. The seller told a visitor interested in their cable that they where a little 'nerdy' at their company... Well you know a cable has certain resistance, capacitance and inductance. We at our company are a little bit nerdy so we have calculated the best length for the cable, its 2.4 meters, or 2.4375 to be exact heh.
I have some DNM Reson speaker cable (fairly expensive teflon insulated solid copper wire) which is clearly becoming tarnished, way past the end of the wire, far into the insulated area.
So I've highlighted two things here: firstly, expensive doesn't mean best quality is assured, and secondly, that copper can oxidise, even when it has some plastic wrapped around it.
It has been suggested that different geometries/designs cause a different interaction with the amplifier, which may be responsible for the change in sound character ie. the system sounds different, not the wire.
My system was very harsh sounding before I found a more appropriate type of speaker cable. This new cable wasn't even more expensive, just a different type I happened to try one day. I was very surprised myself...
So I've highlighted two things here: firstly, expensive doesn't mean best quality is assured, and secondly, that copper can oxidise, even when it has some plastic wrapped around it.
It has been suggested that different geometries/designs cause a different interaction with the amplifier, which may be responsible for the change in sound character ie. the system sounds different, not the wire.
My system was very harsh sounding before I found a more appropriate type of speaker cable. This new cable wasn't even more expensive, just a different type I happened to try one day. I was very surprised myself...
ill have to take ur word for it...but it still seems like alien science to me....did u try a n A/B kind of test.......i mean whats the differene....if they are both made of copper....wide enough to accomodate full on current ...to give all the power neccesary for transients.......then how could they SOUND different...i could understand this pitch from any other angle...eg they last longer...but sound.....SOUND???!!
I didn't try any A/B testing, but the previous cable was the only other one that had been in the system with the current speakers, so I know it pretty well.alecwek said:
The design differences between the cables are:
teflon - polyethylene
solid core - multistranded
thin - thick
parallel spaced run - braided
The one on the left is the one with loose bass and harsh, glaring midrange - thin, solid core copper, coated in teflon.
The soft, warm, listenable cable is the thick, mult-stranded, braided (capacitive?), polyethylene-insulated wire.
And before you dismiss my claims (not really claims, just an obvious sound character) I should say that this same 'harsh' cable was anything but on two previous sets of speakers - this is why I believe it's an interaction thing - the cable itself perhaps doesn't have any strong character.
This is probably also why blind testing has been inconclusive. I think anyone wanting to prove cables can make a difference needs to try a system like mine. The differences are just too small in some systems. Furthermore, they are sometimes found more in the longer term enjoyment of the system. A/B testing is lost on me - I need to get used to something over a long period before I can be sure I like it or not.
alecwek - what is your experience of cable listening? Perhaps to 'believe' they can make a difference, good or bad, you need to try some different designs. And I don't mean different price, I mean different materials, geometry etc.
I'd like to add, that I'm not really a fan of expensive or elaborate cabling...
I wonder, and I should try this - will my system take on it's current qualities, using the old cable, if I stick a capacitor across the amp's terminals? And if I had the same cable but with less resistance? And if I could remove the inductance?
I don't think there are any magic cheerleaders or pixies at work here, just some different electrical parameters that cause my amplifier to behave badly and put out a harsh sound, or a pleasant sound.
And as for the intended subject of this thread. I look forward to trying a turntable in my system, and will see if the occasional annoying sounds are inherent in my CDs and digital playback, or still come through when listening to vinyl....
I wonder, and I should try this - will my system take on it's current qualities, using the old cable, if I stick a capacitor across the amp's terminals? And if I had the same cable but with less resistance? And if I could remove the inductance?
I don't think there are any magic cheerleaders or pixies at work here, just some different electrical parameters that cause my amplifier to behave badly and put out a harsh sound, or a pleasant sound.
And as for the intended subject of this thread. I look forward to trying a turntable in my system, and will see if the occasional annoying sounds are inherent in my CDs and digital playback, or still come through when listening to vinyl....
Guys, can we please get this thread back on track? A moderator already said that any discussions related to cables should go into another thread, rather than poisoning this one.
Now, for the guy wondering about his tweeter, I've got a few suggestions:
(1) You may want to have an active 1st order lowpass filter with -6dB at 20KHz in your system, which you can turn on with a switch. ISO 9613 describes the high frequency attenuation characteristics of air. Since microphone distances in modern recordings tend to be short, often less than a foot, you often have to add the effect of air yourself, unless the recording engineer knows his/her job.
(2) Move the inductor so that it is in paralell with only the tweeter, not the tweeter and inductor. Damping factor for a tweeter is essentially determined entirely by the crossover network. It may be realized by either (a) using an RLC filter across the tweeter to improve the damping factor at the resonance frequency, or (b) using an even order parallell crossover, or (c) using an odd order series crossover. Note also that any resistor used to reduce the tweeter level will have less reduction at resonance (due to the higher resistance of the tweeter at that frequency) than it has throughout the rest of the operating range. You mentioned that going from a 8.2uF cap and 0.82ohm resistor to a 8.0uF cap and 0.18ohm resistor improved things. That is likely because that modification raised the other parts of the spectrum, causing the resonance to be swamped out.
(3) The W17 has severe breakup at higher frequencies. As far as I could see, the posted crossover only had a second order lowpass filter for the woofer, and for some reason places the impedance correction circuit on the amp side of things, when it would probably do more good connected across the woofer instead. Try increasing the order of the woofer crossover, and use notch filters and proper impedance compensation. It is very common not to treat this driver with the extra care it needs, resulting in harsh sound.
(4) Presence and siblant harshness tends to stem from the 3-5KHz range, and many recordings have unduly high level in this range, probably due to the fact that many cheap 2-way systems have a hole in this range. A single parametric equalizer should do the trick, but make sure you can turn it off. Also note that the W17 breakup occurs exactly in this range.
Hope this helps.
Now, for the guy wondering about his tweeter, I've got a few suggestions:
(1) You may want to have an active 1st order lowpass filter with -6dB at 20KHz in your system, which you can turn on with a switch. ISO 9613 describes the high frequency attenuation characteristics of air. Since microphone distances in modern recordings tend to be short, often less than a foot, you often have to add the effect of air yourself, unless the recording engineer knows his/her job.
(2) Move the inductor so that it is in paralell with only the tweeter, not the tweeter and inductor. Damping factor for a tweeter is essentially determined entirely by the crossover network. It may be realized by either (a) using an RLC filter across the tweeter to improve the damping factor at the resonance frequency, or (b) using an even order parallell crossover, or (c) using an odd order series crossover. Note also that any resistor used to reduce the tweeter level will have less reduction at resonance (due to the higher resistance of the tweeter at that frequency) than it has throughout the rest of the operating range. You mentioned that going from a 8.2uF cap and 0.82ohm resistor to a 8.0uF cap and 0.18ohm resistor improved things. That is likely because that modification raised the other parts of the spectrum, causing the resonance to be swamped out.
(3) The W17 has severe breakup at higher frequencies. As far as I could see, the posted crossover only had a second order lowpass filter for the woofer, and for some reason places the impedance correction circuit on the amp side of things, when it would probably do more good connected across the woofer instead. Try increasing the order of the woofer crossover, and use notch filters and proper impedance compensation. It is very common not to treat this driver with the extra care it needs, resulting in harsh sound.
(4) Presence and siblant harshness tends to stem from the 3-5KHz range, and many recordings have unduly high level in this range, probably due to the fact that many cheap 2-way systems have a hole in this range. A single parametric equalizer should do the trick, but make sure you can turn it off. Also note that the W17 breakup occurs exactly in this range.
Hope this helps.
A (hopefully) last note on the subject of "harsh" sound from solid state. Mr. Alecwec was absolutely right noting that cables inside the amp (and the resistance in semiconductors) could have the same (bad) results as the outside loudspeaker connection.
When selling our amp kits (www.hawkaudio.nl) we often advise to use enamel coated solid core wire for the power connections. The enamel has about the same properties as glass and such wire hardly corrodes. (Have a look at old transformer windings for that sake.) If you're afraid of short circuit because of the very thin isolation you might use shrimp sleeves around it.
As stated earlier in this thread a tweeter could add an extra "accent". This mostly happens when using a T-type filtering with two capacitors in series and a coil inbetween. We think that it's always a good idea to have some resistor in parallel to the tweeter of say 40 - 50 Ohms. Although the filter may be good the tweeter does not "see" any damping below the cross over frequency so when there's even a small signal at the resonance frequency it will "ring" freely! That parallel resistor could do a lot of good (as opposed to a parallel RLC filter suppressing the resonance).
When selling our amp kits (www.hawkaudio.nl) we often advise to use enamel coated solid core wire for the power connections. The enamel has about the same properties as glass and such wire hardly corrodes. (Have a look at old transformer windings for that sake.) If you're afraid of short circuit because of the very thin isolation you might use shrimp sleeves around it.
As stated earlier in this thread a tweeter could add an extra "accent". This mostly happens when using a T-type filtering with two capacitors in series and a coil inbetween. We think that it's always a good idea to have some resistor in parallel to the tweeter of say 40 - 50 Ohms. Although the filter may be good the tweeter does not "see" any damping below the cross over frequency so when there's even a small signal at the resonance frequency it will "ring" freely! That parallel resistor could do a lot of good (as opposed to a parallel RLC filter suppressing the resonance).
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