Has anyone seen or done 3rd party tests and measurements on the new Mark Audio Alpair 7 MS? I have a pair on order and should get them very soon. I am most curious about the large peak that appears at about 12KHz on the OEM plot. I have a pair of 7P's that I will be doing direct comparisons with. I will first try them in my Fostex P1000 BLH boxes. I also have some Parts Express flat pack boxes, the 0.23 cu. ft. one I will try closed box. I also have the 0.56 cu ft. one I will try vented. I have no plans to move to the FH's or Pensils; I can only use short "book-shelf" style boxes in my current listening space.
Has anyone tried a notch circuit on that 12KHz peak yet? As before; I will need a super tweeter up top for my 60+ years old hearing loss; I will also use a woofer but really am hoping the 7 MS will be extremely well behaved in the 100 Hz to 10 KHz band.
(I should probably also say I no longer have access to expensive test and measurement equipment since retirement and also no longer have any real means of building any boxes from scratch; just the basics now).
Has anyone tried a notch circuit on that 12KHz peak yet? As before; I will need a super tweeter up top for my 60+ years old hearing loss; I will also use a woofer but really am hoping the 7 MS will be extremely well behaved in the 100 Hz to 10 KHz band.
(I should probably also say I no longer have access to expensive test and measurement equipment since retirement and also no longer have any real means of building any boxes from scratch; just the basics now).
First thing out of the box; these will need some obvious break-in time (as is to be expected). I have only mounted one unit in a Fostex P1000 BLH box. I have my other P1000 box with my custom/highly doped (paper) cone Alpair 7P right next to it. No comparisons would be accurate at this point but the 7P sounds WAY better (unfair and way too early to judge I realize!). In case you haven't yet noticed all the 7MS specs, it IS smaller than other Alpair 7's and the mounting hole is also smaller. SO, I will follow the instructions and break-it in slowly and carefully without too much bass content or too much power. Stay tuned so to speak for updates; I would love to hear from other 7P and 7MS owners (FYI, I have never personally heard a "regular" metal cone Alpair 7 regardless of generation so I can't do any comparisons there).
What do you mean by the 7p sounds way better? I have some 7ms on the way, I'll be sure to add some thoughts when they arrive, however they'll be the only full range drivers I've ever heard
As I said, the 7MS are needing to be broken in. I modified my Alpair 7P's by "doping" the paper cone with a special doping agent; like tacky adhesive that doesn't ever "dry". It was a long shot but made a huge improvement over the bare cone 7P. At first listen, the 7MS just sound like little toy speakers; very "tinny" and cheap sounding overall. I hope for GREAT improvements as they break in! More later. Cheers!
The one 7MS has been on continuously now for about 24 hours. I have started giving it a little more bass and a little more power. I can't really tell much difference from yesterday. I have read somewhere that these are supposed to break-in faster than the older models; perhaps because it doesn't have a spider assembly? I may move it over to a different size and design box soon. It could be that the Fostex BLH is just not a good match (perhaps too large???). More later...
Enclosure: P1000-BH - Back-loaded Horn Enclosure Box for P1000K | Speaker Components| Fostex
The BLH box above
I have now placed the one 7MS test driver into a Parts Express knock down box. This I am using closed. 0.23 cu. ft. or about 6.5 L. I have it stuffed with about 2/3 rds volume of dense (non-compressed) foam. Qtc should be about 0.76 or so. I did not subtract the volume of the driver from the box volume but the foam should more than make up for that.
Denovo Audio Knock-Down MDF 0.23 cu. ft. Mini Bookshelf Speaker Cabinet
This seems to be a better match for the Alpair 7MS; the sound is more full. I will continue breaking-in for another day or so with the closed box before I try a bass reflex (vented) box.
The BLH box above
I have now placed the one 7MS test driver into a Parts Express knock down box. This I am using closed. 0.23 cu. ft. or about 6.5 L. I have it stuffed with about 2/3 rds volume of dense (non-compressed) foam. Qtc should be about 0.76 or so. I did not subtract the volume of the driver from the box volume but the foam should more than make up for that.
Denovo Audio Knock-Down MDF 0.23 cu. ft. Mini Bookshelf Speaker Cabinet
This seems to be a better match for the Alpair 7MS; the sound is more full. I will continue breaking-in for another day or so with the closed box before I try a bass reflex (vented) box.
7MS should also sound good in the appropriate "Pensil" cabinet (shown with recommended fill density) as that approach
has less group delay and resonances than a strict bass reflex box. P10's semi-resistive port method might
be good for a desktop box. 7MS has high qts for a reflex - guess still could work.
Pensil 7MS
6.5 liter Sealed box 7MS
has less group delay and resonances than a strict bass reflex box. P10's semi-resistive port method might
be good for a desktop box. 7MS has high qts for a reflex - guess still could work.
Pensil 7MS
6.5 liter Sealed box 7MS
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Unfortunately, my current listening room and layout prevents me from having anything tall like a Pensil or Frugal Horn. The Q is high but will give a try anyway. I'm retired, plenty of time for experimenting! Thanks for the inputs; this will surely help others!
Do note that this is more accuratly called a poorly designed transmission line.
I have the pre-cursor to these downstairs.
dave
If the 7MS is close to a drop in replacement for A7.3, I think Dave has several designs in his catalog for relatively simple compact vented boxes that would be better suited than the Fostex "BLH" .
Relatively as far as bald T/S spec. goes, but it is not a drop-in and the driver's behavior in the midband & higher is sufficiently different to affect how you would approach using it.
Hi all and thanks for the inputs. The BLH works GREAT with my Alpair 7P's. Dave, you may remember we chatted back and forth about my doping the cones of the 7P's last year with the special doping adhesive. It turns out; Fostex gives the internal volume as only 1.1 L. The 7MS do sound better in the 0.23 cu ft closed box. I already have the 0.56 cu ft box to try for vented. At this point; my modified 7P's still sound WAY better than the 7MS but I will continue to experiment. So far, my opinion of the 7MS is that I would have much better preferred if they had concentrated on perfecting the 7P first (I would love to eventually see a second generation 7P or maybe something like a "8P", totally new). This is all personal taste and opinion after all but the 7MS just isn't doing it for me (so far anyway). Eventually; I will add in a super tweeter and a woofer; that might be what the 7MS needs (perhaps a [gentle???] roll off starting at maybe 6 to 8KHz?). Someone elsewhere pointed out that the 7MS wasn't all that nice above 8KHz. I don't mind using it as a very wide-band midrange because, as I said, I am 60+ and need a super tweeter above about 10KHz anyway. I'm guessing the 10+dB peak at 12KHz or so is "somehow" affecting the entire upper end (top 2 octaves) or so. Looks like it might be a good place to start for the ENABL process!?? Break-in time is now about 50 hours or so; I'll give it heavier bass content and more power today, maybe the suspension is still very stiff!?? Please keep the good ideas coming, even if I don't follow through, someone else surely will! Cheers!
OK, vented box now under test. Best guess/estimates based on several different calculators: (based mostly on WJJ Hoge)
Vb 15.5L (corrected), fb 45 Hz, f3 42 Hz, Vent dia. 4.3 cm, Vent length 10.2 cm. This is tuned about 5 Hz lower on purpose just because low E on a 4 string bass is 41.2 Hz (why not???). Ql guesstimate approx 0.7. Dense foam fill only about 1/4th to 1/3rd total volume (NOT compressed).
NOW, the Alpair 7MS sounds like a fullrange driver worth listening to! I still WAY prefer my modified 7P's in the BLH box but the 7MS is showing great promise now! SO, those of you that want to try the PENSIL, Frugel Horns, etc.; I'd say; go for it! Others may wish to try some modified bass reflex (vented), BLH, MLTL, front loaded horn, etc. or some combination/hybrid! I'd like to know what others have tried re the 7MS and 7P so far. Let's say on a rating scale of 10; I would give the 7MS in the Fostex BLH box a 2 or 3; in the closed 0.23 cu ft (6.5 L) box, 4 or 5; in the venetd 0.56 cu ft (16 L) box, 6 or 7; my 7P's in the same Fostex BLH box, 8 or 9 (reserving a perfect 10 for something later I suppose!). Let's keep this post stream going; I'm really curious! As many of you may already know, the Alpair 7MS is JUST NOW available at Madisound for us in the USA so most of us here are just now getting our chance to try these 1st hand. The 7MS won't play as loud as the 7P because it is probably 4 dB less sensitive. I haven't pushed either the 7MS or 7P to X-max but the arrestor on the 7MS made me back off the volume just now (I never had the arrestor on my 7P's do that with even more power).
Vb 15.5L (corrected), fb 45 Hz, f3 42 Hz, Vent dia. 4.3 cm, Vent length 10.2 cm. This is tuned about 5 Hz lower on purpose just because low E on a 4 string bass is 41.2 Hz (why not???). Ql guesstimate approx 0.7. Dense foam fill only about 1/4th to 1/3rd total volume (NOT compressed).
NOW, the Alpair 7MS sounds like a fullrange driver worth listening to! I still WAY prefer my modified 7P's in the BLH box but the 7MS is showing great promise now! SO, those of you that want to try the PENSIL, Frugel Horns, etc.; I'd say; go for it! Others may wish to try some modified bass reflex (vented), BLH, MLTL, front loaded horn, etc. or some combination/hybrid! I'd like to know what others have tried re the 7MS and 7P so far. Let's say on a rating scale of 10; I would give the 7MS in the Fostex BLH box a 2 or 3; in the closed 0.23 cu ft (6.5 L) box, 4 or 5; in the venetd 0.56 cu ft (16 L) box, 6 or 7; my 7P's in the same Fostex BLH box, 8 or 9 (reserving a perfect 10 for something later I suppose!). Let's keep this post stream going; I'm really curious! As many of you may already know, the Alpair 7MS is JUST NOW available at Madisound for us in the USA so most of us here are just now getting our chance to try these 1st hand. The 7MS won't play as loud as the 7P because it is probably 4 dB less sensitive. I haven't pushed either the 7MS or 7P to X-max but the arrestor on the 7MS made me back off the volume just now (I never had the arrestor on my 7P's do that with even more power).
http://mx-spk.com/image/Alpair7P-spec
7P specs
file:///C:/Users/Danlt123/Downloads/Alpair%207MS%20spec%20final.pdf
7MS specs
The OEM sens. specs. give 87.5 vs. 86 dB but their own SPL curves don't agree with that. I no longer have any way to measure SPL but my very best guess is that the 7P is AT LEAST 4 dB more sensitive than the 7MS. It may have something to do with the differences in my 2 boxes!?? If you want loud with the 7MS; you may need to run 2 drivers in parallel (something to consider based on your specific listening room size and your personal listening habits). I am listening to a Howard Johnson CD right now; this is a brass orchestra with lots of tubas and other low brass. I am very familiar with this recording so it is a good test for me. I just now had to back down on the volume as the 7MS (in the vented box) was struggling with some of the lower notes. The arrestor did not make itself "very" obvious but the IM distortion went way up. I do have the "sub-sonic" filter turned on but that is at 15 Hz I believe. I think in real life, anything below 80Hz at louder levels is going to push this little guy too hard.
7P specs
file:///C:/Users/Danlt123/Downloads/Alpair%207MS%20spec%20final.pdf
7MS specs
The OEM sens. specs. give 87.5 vs. 86 dB but their own SPL curves don't agree with that. I no longer have any way to measure SPL but my very best guess is that the 7P is AT LEAST 4 dB more sensitive than the 7MS. It may have something to do with the differences in my 2 boxes!?? If you want loud with the 7MS; you may need to run 2 drivers in parallel (something to consider based on your specific listening room size and your personal listening habits). I am listening to a Howard Johnson CD right now; this is a brass orchestra with lots of tubas and other low brass. I am very familiar with this recording so it is a good test for me. I just now had to back down on the volume as the 7MS (in the vented box) was struggling with some of the lower notes. The arrestor did not make itself "very" obvious but the IM distortion went way up. I do have the "sub-sonic" filter turned on but that is at 15 Hz I believe. I think in real life, anything below 80Hz at louder levels is going to push this little guy too hard.
Well, let me try to copy and paste the MS spec sheet again
Markaudio Alpair-7MS Gold Cone 5" Full Range
(This time from the Madisound site)
First look at the A7ms has the optimum size miniOnken to be back to the original Fonken size (13 litre), up from the deciSize (9 litres).
I haven’t looked but some combination of bass extension or efficiency should come from that. Time for me to get to work. With more couch time due to PostOp recovery i should have the time.
dave
I haven’t looked but some combination of bass extension or efficiency should come from that. Time for me to get to work. With more couch time due to PostOp recovery i should have the time.
dave
A quick look in WinISD with A7.3 (10L@55Hz) and 7MS (12L@56Hz) and the curves virtually overlap.
Yeah, get crackin'.😉😀
jeff
Tacky Speaker Surround Dampener and Adhesive
Originally designed for pleated type cloth surrounds; this is truly a TACKY adhesive that never totally "drys". I don't have the exact dates handy right now but if you search under "nipper1" for Alpair 7P experiences so far on this site you will probably find what I did. Dave at Planet 10 was kind enough to help me better describe this many staged process I went through. I don't have any digital camera or CAD software so that was helpful! NOT for anyone afraid to experiment but I am 62+, been doing speakers since I was about 12; traveled around the world with Navy and spent the better part of 15 years in Japan. I am a retired Engineer and Technician and former Musician; I experiment quite often but only trust my ears for any final tweaks and tunings. I obviously understand the math and science but this all comes down to personal preference and tastes after all. NEVER be afraid to experiment and/or "bend the rules" regardless of what the so called experts try to tell you and ALWAYS trust your own ears! All for now; trying Pink Floyd just for giggles right now!
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