I'm the second owner of a pair of Emerald Physics CS2 speakers for a about two years now. I have enjoyed them for the most part, despite some issues with the Behringer Ultra Drive Pro DCX2496 that they came with. The DCX2496 had some of the mods which can have been discussed in various forums, but the audio in the unit decided to completely die after the power to our house was suddenly cut due to utility work in our neighborhood. (At least, that's my best guess as to the cause.) I eventually invested in a miniDSP 2x4 HD and came up with my own EQ settings based on learning a lot about speaker and room measurements. I drive the CS2s with two XTZ EDGE A2-300 Class D amps, each in stereo configuration.
Now to my call for advice -- I've listened to these CS2s long enough that my engineer/DIY nature is starting to wonder if there are ways I can improve the overall sound experience. (I've already been experimenting with room treatment, so we don't need to go down that road at the moment.) With certain music selections I feel like there's a touch of harshness which I don't enjoy. I've found a few random posts online from back when these speakers were fresh on the scene, including some threads about "CS2 Clones". There's also a list of CS2 mods published by Ric Schultz which I came across.
I would like to retain the overall look and construction of the CS2 if possible. Otherwise, I would just start my own OB build from scratch. I'm thinking about the layer damping material on the back of the waveguide and perhaps felt on the front edge as Ric describes on his mod page. Changing out the original Selenium D220TI compression drivers seems like a tempting variable to play with. I'll have to be honest, however, that I know very little at this point about the interaction between specific compression drivers and various waveguide designs. I understand that the CS2 waveguide was relatively cheap and has its flaws, but is reasonable to explore the possibility of retaining this waveguide with added layer damping and find a swap-in compression driver with same 1" throat and threads for mounting? If yes, I'm not really sure where to start for compression driver options. Some of those "CS2 clone" threads are already 15 years old or so... I would imagine that the compression driver landscape has changed somewhat since then. (Some of the models that were discussed, for example, don't seem to be available any longer.) Also... Perhaps there are better waveguides which would fit in the CS2 baffle as-is or with minor modification?
Any advice if this is a worthwhile pursuit and what to focus on if so?
Thanks!
-Luke
Now to my call for advice -- I've listened to these CS2s long enough that my engineer/DIY nature is starting to wonder if there are ways I can improve the overall sound experience. (I've already been experimenting with room treatment, so we don't need to go down that road at the moment.) With certain music selections I feel like there's a touch of harshness which I don't enjoy. I've found a few random posts online from back when these speakers were fresh on the scene, including some threads about "CS2 Clones". There's also a list of CS2 mods published by Ric Schultz which I came across.
I would like to retain the overall look and construction of the CS2 if possible. Otherwise, I would just start my own OB build from scratch. I'm thinking about the layer damping material on the back of the waveguide and perhaps felt on the front edge as Ric describes on his mod page. Changing out the original Selenium D220TI compression drivers seems like a tempting variable to play with. I'll have to be honest, however, that I know very little at this point about the interaction between specific compression drivers and various waveguide designs. I understand that the CS2 waveguide was relatively cheap and has its flaws, but is reasonable to explore the possibility of retaining this waveguide with added layer damping and find a swap-in compression driver with same 1" throat and threads for mounting? If yes, I'm not really sure where to start for compression driver options. Some of those "CS2 clone" threads are already 15 years old or so... I would imagine that the compression driver landscape has changed somewhat since then. (Some of the models that were discussed, for example, don't seem to be available any longer.) Also... Perhaps there are better waveguides which would fit in the CS2 baffle as-is or with minor modification?
Any advice if this is a worthwhile pursuit and what to focus on if so?
Thanks!
-Luke
I’ll add a comment about compression driver options…. Here are three 1" models which I have come up in a few threads:
- B&C DE250
- BMS 4540ND
- Beyma CP380M
Tough to get better without effectively DIY'ing your own loudspeaker.
In other words the changes would be substantive enough that the design, construction, and drivers will change.
IF you just want to lower the harshness, look to poly diaphragm 1" exit compression drivers.. and I think those with screw-on connection for the waveguide you already have.
OK, so assuming similar format and using the same midbass drivers but changing baffle construction, compression driver?? and waveguide:
RCF
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/compression-driver-rcf-nd350-8-ohm-1-inch.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/horn-rcf-h100-8-66-x-8-66-inch-1-inch-throat.html
for more money but at a risk of a bit more treble hash (though not a harsh sounding driver at all with a good waveguide), the Radian 475PB-8
https://www.usspeaker.com/radian 475pb-1.htm
Note: the Radian isn't technically better - but it tends to sound a bit better in the lower treble (where it matters most) than other offerings.
-this one says screw-on but it's really bolt-on, and it's very good for its size:
https://eminence.com/collections/waveguides-and-horn-flares/products/sst1
..BUT,
IF you can get the speakers far enough away from the wall behind them then I'd go with a Great HEIL and maybe some "wing" extensions to improve lower freq. response and overall while still keeping the horizontal dispersion pattern.
https://essspeakers.store/collections/heil-amt/products/president-s-day-super-pack
.."wings" example, but your own sized according to your desired baffle width:
https://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/1211/heil_amt1_horn.htm
Further, I would have your treble device (be it a horn + compression driver or Great HEIL) on it's own stand free of the baffle for the midbass drivers. This is because the midbass drivers will produce a LOT of vibration and you don't want that transmitted to any treble driver. So at a bare minimum each speaker would be two baffles but they could be "stacked" (placed next to each other vertically) to achieve a similar profile to what you already have. You could also alter their vertical orientation to better suit your listening position - perhaps like Focal's more expensive loudspeakers.
ex. imagine the tweeter module stack removed and the upper midrange is where the treble driver is located:
In other words the changes would be substantive enough that the design, construction, and drivers will change.
IF you just want to lower the harshness, look to poly diaphragm 1" exit compression drivers.. and I think those with screw-on connection for the waveguide you already have.
OK, so assuming similar format and using the same midbass drivers but changing baffle construction, compression driver?? and waveguide:
RCF
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/compression-driver-rcf-nd350-8-ohm-1-inch.html
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/horn-rcf-h100-8-66-x-8-66-inch-1-inch-throat.html
for more money but at a risk of a bit more treble hash (though not a harsh sounding driver at all with a good waveguide), the Radian 475PB-8
https://www.usspeaker.com/radian 475pb-1.htm
Note: the Radian isn't technically better - but it tends to sound a bit better in the lower treble (where it matters most) than other offerings.
-this one says screw-on but it's really bolt-on, and it's very good for its size:
https://eminence.com/collections/waveguides-and-horn-flares/products/sst1
..BUT,
IF you can get the speakers far enough away from the wall behind them then I'd go with a Great HEIL and maybe some "wing" extensions to improve lower freq. response and overall while still keeping the horizontal dispersion pattern.
https://essspeakers.store/collections/heil-amt/products/president-s-day-super-pack
.."wings" example, but your own sized according to your desired baffle width:
https://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/1211/heil_amt1_horn.htm
Further, I would have your treble device (be it a horn + compression driver or Great HEIL) on it's own stand free of the baffle for the midbass drivers. This is because the midbass drivers will produce a LOT of vibration and you don't want that transmitted to any treble driver. So at a bare minimum each speaker would be two baffles but they could be "stacked" (placed next to each other vertically) to achieve a similar profile to what you already have. You could also alter their vertical orientation to better suit your listening position - perhaps like Focal's more expensive loudspeakers.
ex. imagine the tweeter module stack removed and the upper midrange is where the treble driver is located:
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Ouch! I've seen the
But I just wanted to say : harshness & Digital ? Go ahead! Just eliminate the Digital and the harshness goes away!
Not true? Well, eliminate the silicon in the power stages.
Then we can talk about isolation of the speakers...or any of the equipment included in the room.
Emerald Physics CS2!!
But I just wanted to say : harshness & Digital ? Go ahead! Just eliminate the Digital and the harshness goes away!
Not true? Well, eliminate the silicon in the power stages.
Then we can talk about isolation of the speakers...or any of the equipment included in the room.
A worthwhile engineering pursuit starts with measurements, continues with simulation/design phase into real-world prototype evaluation, where the cycle usually starts anew for a few iterations. Slapping another compression driver on a horn or covering said horn in dampening compoung or ditching DSP for tubes leaves out all the phases of a proper design process sans prototyping. And even prototype evaluation is all but impossible, human auditory memory is simply inadequate for comparison times longer than 10-15 seconds.
-My car accelerates poorly, what to do?
-Try a different carburator!
It can be fun for some, but it's not engineering. And it rarely leads to satisfactory results.
So I would buy a measurement mic, take a gated on- and off-axis frequency response measurement using REW ( https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ ) and look for what probably causes harshness - elevated treble, off-axis irregularities, grossly elevated distortion. If on- and off-axis curves are smooth and similar, you can easily EQ speaker to taste and be done with it. If there are more serious design shortcomings, you are in the perfect position to develop a new DSP corssover - your speakers are active, you already have the DSP unit. Basically all work will be in software domain, zero soldering. All that left is to learn VituixCAD for XO development.
Hell, even single on-axis curve is more useful than weeks of listening and tinkering, if the full set of measuremenst seems insurmountable.
-My car accelerates poorly, what to do?
-Try a different carburator!
It can be fun for some, but it's not engineering. And it rarely leads to satisfactory results.
So I would buy a measurement mic, take a gated on- and off-axis frequency response measurement using REW ( https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ ) and look for what probably causes harshness - elevated treble, off-axis irregularities, grossly elevated distortion. If on- and off-axis curves are smooth and similar, you can easily EQ speaker to taste and be done with it. If there are more serious design shortcomings, you are in the perfect position to develop a new DSP corssover - your speakers are active, you already have the DSP unit. Basically all work will be in software domain, zero soldering. All that left is to learn VituixCAD for XO development.
Hell, even single on-axis curve is more useful than weeks of listening and tinkering, if the full set of measuremenst seems insurmountable.
@ScottG -- Thanks for all of your suggestions. At this point I'm more interested in upgrade opportunities with the existing CS2 build and form factor, so perhaps I'll learn more about poly diaphragm 1" exit compression drivers on the market which you suggested. Incidentally, I actually already owns a pair of Great HEIL AMT1 for a different speaker setup in the house. It might be interesting to mock these up near the CS2s and temporarily substitute the compression drivers. I'm not sure I could get the AMTs in the appropriate location, however.
@picowallspeaker -- If you are implying the DCX2496 or miniDSP as the digital component contributing to harshness in the sound, then I'm not sure I can confirm or deny it. The CS2 was designed around a DSP crossover and EQ strategy from the beginning, so haven't strayed from that configuration yet. Now, you might actually be implying something about the amplifiers that I'm using. (XTZ EDGE A2-300 Class D) I don't have any tube amps at the moment. Are you saying that I should be looking for some?
@VoxCelestial -- I completely agree with you about starting with measurements. My ears and brain are not experienced enough to make informed decisions based on listening alone. Fortunately, I do have a setup with a proper mic, audio interface, and REW to make measurements. I also just completed a simple speaker impedance measurement jig to analyze a small 2-way speaker kit that I just finished my office space. So, I'm happy to start with measurements. I must humbly admit, however, that I am by no means an expert at interpreting all the results. I used speaker and room measurements when developing the EQ settings for the miniDSP swap out which I mentioned in the original post. There certainly could be more to play with on the EQ front. Is acceptable to share some measurement results in a thread like this to get help in the interpretation and next steps?
@picowallspeaker -- If you are implying the DCX2496 or miniDSP as the digital component contributing to harshness in the sound, then I'm not sure I can confirm or deny it. The CS2 was designed around a DSP crossover and EQ strategy from the beginning, so haven't strayed from that configuration yet. Now, you might actually be implying something about the amplifiers that I'm using. (XTZ EDGE A2-300 Class D) I don't have any tube amps at the moment. Are you saying that I should be looking for some?
@VoxCelestial -- I completely agree with you about starting with measurements. My ears and brain are not experienced enough to make informed decisions based on listening alone. Fortunately, I do have a setup with a proper mic, audio interface, and REW to make measurements. I also just completed a simple speaker impedance measurement jig to analyze a small 2-way speaker kit that I just finished my office space. So, I'm happy to start with measurements. I must humbly admit, however, that I am by no means an expert at interpreting all the results. I used speaker and room measurements when developing the EQ settings for the miniDSP swap out which I mentioned in the original post. There certainly could be more to play with on the EQ front. Is acceptable to share some measurement results in a thread like this to get help in the interpretation and next steps?
I forgot to ask -- why the "Ouch!" response? This sounds like your experience with the CS2 wasn't so favorable. 🙂
I Just like to Watch.
Watch~ouch
Most of the speaker systems do that!
It reminds me an italian brandhttp://www.diesisaudio.com/
Anyway, the presence of an analogue Path for the full system must be expected, Just for contemplation
Watch~ouch
Most of the speaker systems do that!
It reminds me an italian brandhttp://www.diesisaudio.com/
Anyway, the presence of an analogue Path for the full system must be expected, Just for contemplation
Great!
More than acceptable - welcomed, and I would be glad to help with interpretation etc. We can start with a simple on-axis sweep at 1 m (or on-axis+30+60 degress horizontally) and a sweep at listening position.
For more in-depth measurements here is a REW/VituixCAD guide: https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/VituixCAD/VituixCAD_Measurement_REW.pdf
Perfect... I appreciate the assistance. I'm out of the town for spring break at the moment. I'll setup some measurements on Monday or Tuesday after I return home.
I've never been thrilled with the sound of titanium tweeters.
JBL sells some screw on ring radiators that may sound better. JBL 2408H-2 comes to mind.
The waveguide on the CS2 is narrower than ideal IMHO. Really depends on what kind of presentation you like, but I find that narrow waveguides provide a rock solid center image, but soundstage width suffers. Basically the narrower the waveguide, the more pinpoint the center gets, and vice versa.
A lot of dipole builders prefer the addition of a tweeter on the back of the dipole, so that the high frequencies are also dipole, not just the bass.
JBL sells some screw on ring radiators that may sound better. JBL 2408H-2 comes to mind.
The waveguide on the CS2 is narrower than ideal IMHO. Really depends on what kind of presentation you like, but I find that narrow waveguides provide a rock solid center image, but soundstage width suffers. Basically the narrower the waveguide, the more pinpoint the center gets, and vice versa.
A lot of dipole builders prefer the addition of a tweeter on the back of the dipole, so that the high frequencies are also dipole, not just the bass.
Ha! I bought a EP CS2 setup years back after hearing they were like Quads on steroids...well, after quite a bit of comparing to my Quads ESL988, I can say that I was not going to be selling off the Quads anytime soon...nothing really wrong...BUT I did hear something that I really liked in the "Livelyness" they had....I then found and read Martin King's whitepaper on open baffles using the same 15" woofers - Eminence Alpha 15...anyway decided to sell the CS2 system off and just slap together a psudo clone with exact woofer drivers, the DCX2496 with special settings, but different tweeters... I figured it would be something to keep if I really liked, or, if not, donate to number one son's College apartment.
So I aquired the four Eminence Alpha 15A woofers and a pair of Fostex FE108EZ (per Martin's design). I already had a quad of Fostex FE127E (one pair good, one pair very very used), two pairs of brand new Heil AMT Tweeters, and a pair of Ribbon Mid/Tweeter units from an Apogee Caliper (with DIY aluminum ribbons) ... a few options for the mid/tweets...
I built the 18" wide baffles out of 3/4" thick (cant remember wood type). Put it all together (2x15A and FE108EZ), with DCX2496 and powered them with two stereo pairs of Hypex UCD400 amps I had...played around with the EP DCX settings and it was OK....had some potential...did not have time to really get into more deeper experiments with other crossover points, EQ'ing, serial crossovers, etc
Well that all was broken down and went in closet (along with a bunch of other Electrostatic speaker projects i have in that closet) when I got a bit busy with work, family, etc...this was over a year ago...
Anyway, schedule clearing up in a few weeks and looking to get back on this OB experiment. Adding to the mix, I now have a TacT Audio RCS2.0 Room Correction preamp and S2150 amp, and an original MiniDSP (non HD) I could utilize for experiments...
But wondering where the initial OP has gone with his system?
Did he ever try the Heils?
Anyone care to advise where I should start or focus on Mid/Tweets, crossovers, DSP?
I may have quite a bit of stuff to put on the swap meet sometime soon!
So I aquired the four Eminence Alpha 15A woofers and a pair of Fostex FE108EZ (per Martin's design). I already had a quad of Fostex FE127E (one pair good, one pair very very used), two pairs of brand new Heil AMT Tweeters, and a pair of Ribbon Mid/Tweeter units from an Apogee Caliper (with DIY aluminum ribbons) ... a few options for the mid/tweets...
I built the 18" wide baffles out of 3/4" thick (cant remember wood type). Put it all together (2x15A and FE108EZ), with DCX2496 and powered them with two stereo pairs of Hypex UCD400 amps I had...played around with the EP DCX settings and it was OK....had some potential...did not have time to really get into more deeper experiments with other crossover points, EQ'ing, serial crossovers, etc
Well that all was broken down and went in closet (along with a bunch of other Electrostatic speaker projects i have in that closet) when I got a bit busy with work, family, etc...this was over a year ago...
Anyway, schedule clearing up in a few weeks and looking to get back on this OB experiment. Adding to the mix, I now have a TacT Audio RCS2.0 Room Correction preamp and S2150 amp, and an original MiniDSP (non HD) I could utilize for experiments...
But wondering where the initial OP has gone with his system?
Did he ever try the Heils?
Anyone care to advise where I should start or focus on Mid/Tweets, crossovers, DSP?
I may have quite a bit of stuff to put on the swap meet sometime soon!