Yeah, keep in mind too that the drivers were coupled to a high output impedance that gave them a mid bass 'bump'/BSC plus the 'well healed' had variable DF tone controls to do broadband frequency shaping.
Going back to the start being: "Advantages and disadvantages ..." I'll add my little bit for what its worth.
I noticed in my 'somewhat newish' Australian Jaycar catalogue a very low cost 8 inch woofer with good specs.
So I bought a pair purely to 'play around with'. I had a pair of 25L enclosures empty & ready.
The driver is an inverse dome cone rear driven by a 'heavy-stiff semi cone', along with a very strong motor.
After mounting with a small 'resistive reflex' port what I noticed was a very smooth 'non peaky' sound that didn't
seem to have that center-cone 'ring & breakup'. I was hearing a very flat, with smooth natural roll off sound.
The upper spec. of 4.5 Khz is surely down 5dB. I decided to continue with NO filtering of this driver at all.
After adding top-end and higher level drive, it became apparent that the bass, unrestricted by any components
was amazingly fast, tight and extended. The full damping factor of my amp obviously doing its thing.
I do know about very heavy gauge low loss inductors, but I can genuinely hear 'direct coupling' in this case.
CHEERS TO YOU ALL 🙂
https://speakerboxlite.com/subwoofers/jaycar-cw-2196-8-woofer-speaker-driver/specifications
I noticed in my 'somewhat newish' Australian Jaycar catalogue a very low cost 8 inch woofer with good specs.
So I bought a pair purely to 'play around with'. I had a pair of 25L enclosures empty & ready.
The driver is an inverse dome cone rear driven by a 'heavy-stiff semi cone', along with a very strong motor.
After mounting with a small 'resistive reflex' port what I noticed was a very smooth 'non peaky' sound that didn't
seem to have that center-cone 'ring & breakup'. I was hearing a very flat, with smooth natural roll off sound.
The upper spec. of 4.5 Khz is surely down 5dB. I decided to continue with NO filtering of this driver at all.
After adding top-end and higher level drive, it became apparent that the bass, unrestricted by any components
was amazingly fast, tight and extended. The full damping factor of my amp obviously doing its thing.
I do know about very heavy gauge low loss inductors, but I can genuinely hear 'direct coupling' in this case.
CHEERS TO YOU ALL 🙂
https://speakerboxlite.com/subwoofers/jaycar-cw-2196-8-woofer-speaker-driver/specifications
@GM
That entirely depends on how good the tube amplifier is and how (if any), and how much feedback is applied.
As mentioned in other posts, how much power do you really need in a home environment and how low do you really need to go, not to forget at what stage do you start to annoy your partner or neighbours with wall shaking bass? This is where a little distortion in the bass region is benificial: a 2% harmonic of 30Hz (being at 60Hz) sounds louder than the fundamental 30 Hz but it won't shake the walls as much. And in this region the tube amplifiers have marked differences in performance to their solid state brethren.
IMHO A lot of tube amplifiers with lots of feedback, and looking good on paper, have considerable phase shifts in the higher frequencies. Not to forget that the amount of feedback (and how feedback has been applied) will have a marked impact on the performance in the mW region.
Our ears are extreemly sensitive to phase differences in the upper midrange - lower treble and therefor it is extreemly important to have as little phase shift in that region as possible, be this introduced by a (tube) amplifier, equalizers or crossovers.
That entirely depends on how good the tube amplifier is and how (if any), and how much feedback is applied.
As mentioned in other posts, how much power do you really need in a home environment and how low do you really need to go, not to forget at what stage do you start to annoy your partner or neighbours with wall shaking bass? This is where a little distortion in the bass region is benificial: a 2% harmonic of 30Hz (being at 60Hz) sounds louder than the fundamental 30 Hz but it won't shake the walls as much. And in this region the tube amplifiers have marked differences in performance to their solid state brethren.
IMHO A lot of tube amplifiers with lots of feedback, and looking good on paper, have considerable phase shifts in the higher frequencies. Not to forget that the amount of feedback (and how feedback has been applied) will have a marked impact on the performance in the mW region.
Our ears are extreemly sensitive to phase differences in the upper midrange - lower treble and therefor it is extreemly important to have as little phase shift in that region as possible, be this introduced by a (tube) amplifier, equalizers or crossovers.
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On pearl-hifi.com are some papers that indicate that the damping factor has a great impact on the woofers' bass performance. It's the synergy between amplifier and speaker that makes great sound.
There have been many popular commercial speakers wit a single capacitor to the tweeter only crossover.
The mid woofer breakup distortion is "more exciting"
The mid woofer breakup distortion is "more exciting"
Breakup of a 5" can be quite noticeable in the treble region hence the 2.5 Khz crossover frequency. Compromises, compromises, figuring out what gives the more engaging result - a never ending story. I do wonder how much cost saving plays a role in speaker manufacturers's "simple" crossover solutions.
I really really wonder how he came to the conclusion that the response is smooth and has a wonderful roll off. Show me a 10” paper woofer and I’ll show you cone breakup anomalies. Which can sound nice, but are a falsification of the original.
@johnmarianmarks you must find some of these comments highly amusing knowing Winslow Burhoe as well as you do, his Burhoe Acoustics ‘Blue’ (my uncles system, powered by a Kenwood model 600) was my introduction/inspiration into high end audio. I still have those very speakers to this day, although sadly the original woofers are gone (been looking for some originals for years) these straight wired 10” woofers in a small reflex box had no problem creating visceral bass…..even away from the wall or corners. They had heavenly imaging without being harsh on top, and with good recordings were able to cleanly deafen you with concert level reproduction without breaking a sweat.
I believe most all his designs had minimal crossover components. The man really is a genius in acoustical relationships.
I believe most all his designs had minimal crossover components. The man really is a genius in acoustical relationships.
If a 1st order low-pass filter is out of the question, then I would at least add a parallel LCR notch placed in series with the signal. So at the resonant frequency the LC part goes "open circuit" and the resistor goes in series with the speaker, reducing the amount of modulation from the speaker's own variable impedance.
That could go well with an old-school driver with 0-2mm Xmax, like a guitar speaker, which is likely to have big peaks in the sensitivity anyway. Just thinking out loud here, but it's almost certainly possible to have 2 or 3 (or more) notches stacked together to shape the whole frequency response without adding phase lag.
That could go well with an old-school driver with 0-2mm Xmax, like a guitar speaker, which is likely to have big peaks in the sensitivity anyway. Just thinking out loud here, but it's almost certainly possible to have 2 or 3 (or more) notches stacked together to shape the whole frequency response without adding phase lag.
I had never really thought of this, and I guess TVs wouldn't have gone high, a lot of tape recordings would have been taken off the radio, and so wouldn't have gone high, so speakers didn't have to go higher, and people got used to the warm sound, so if they did get a source that went beyond 5k, they would use tone controls to trim it back to what they're used to.
from my post #54, this is from
Madisound Speaker Components, Inc.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-10-woofers/seas-prestige-a26re4-h1411-10-paper-cone/
Quote from Madisound
"This classic paper cone has a smooth response with wonderful roll off at 2000Hz. This is one of the only 10" drivers we know of that can be used in a 2-way by letting the woofer run full range without a crossover. The Seas A26 10" 2-way Kit PAIR (based on the classic A25) is availble with or without cabinets using this woofer. It can also be mated to lower priced tweeters, such as the Seas 27TDFC (H1189) to produce that magical retro sound."
Not my conclusion, just a quote from Madisound.
--
post #30, 10" Seas A26RE4 - Devore Orangutan Clone
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ommercial-speakers.337459/page-2#post-6075321
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The higher the output impedance of the amplifier the greater the affect of the impedance on the FR.
The corallary to that is that for an amplifier with high output impedance you either want a flattish impedance response or a loudspeaker where the boosts due to increasing impedance help extend the loudspeakers FR at both ends (ie Fostex FExx6 drivers).
In most loudspeakers there is a significant rise in impedance at the loudspeaker resonance so this is where it is most often a problem bu tin many loudspeakers with crossovers there can be significant impedance bumps at the XO point(s).
dave
Yes on the single cap. But it only really works if the roll-off due to the driver inductance of the midwoofer creates a nice 2nd order acoustic roll-off that can be used as part of the XO.
dave
EPI was the first commercial loudspeaker brand for me. Winslow was brilliant. Only a single cap, with 6 and 8” drivers with well controlled roll-off.
dave
There are a couple good threads on these. But i would not buy the Madisound flat-pak. An unbraced MDF cabinet. A good way to mar this really quite brilliant 2-way. Dynaco did sell well over a million of its predessor.
dave
Sure, it's usually caused by asymmetry of order or nominal electrical frequencies (separation), amongst other reasons.
Ariel could be run (although Lynn didn't recommend it) with those P13s unfiltered. The old Decware MG944 was too, as is the current DM945, although that 8in Silver Flute they're using doesn't exactly look ideal from the Madisound measurements, sans some mechanical modifications. Plenty of others too -Epos for e.g. often did so. Hammer. Zu. Some of Fostex's, PHY and Supravox's designs are 1 1/2 way types. Lengthy list. Whether they're all very good is another matter. 😉
In the UK, the Epos 1 1/2 way models were the most popular. Push them loud and that woofer could get very messy and rough
There are Stereophile measurements for the Epos 12 and 14s showing that despite the minimal crossover, the overall response was actually flat
There are Stereophile measurements for the Epos 12 and 14s showing that despite the minimal crossover, the overall response was actually flat