I just bought yesterday computer backup power supply. Surplus price was CAD$80. It is 400VA unit, using 2 batteries. power amp and big transformer, basicalyy the stuff we were talking about at the beginning of the thread.
I connected all source components to it and I can say that there is improvement in the sound. The background is blacker (seems like less noise around instruments), better bass definition and rhytm, more detail meaning that bacground vocals are more articulate.
When I tried to run it from batteries only I didn't like the sound at all, there was no comparison.
Overall sounds like a good deal to me. Now I have to find a way to increase frequency from 60 to 100Hz.
I connected all source components to it and I can say that there is improvement in the sound. The background is blacker (seems like less noise around instruments), better bass definition and rhytm, more detail meaning that bacground vocals are more articulate.
When I tried to run it from batteries only I didn't like the sound at all, there was no comparison.
Overall sounds like a good deal to me. Now I have to find a way to increase frequency from 60 to 100Hz.
My following suggestion does not hit exactly the topic of this thread as You are talking about creating a totally "new" AC power line.
As this might be the ultimate approach to solve the power line noise problem completly, it seems to be (at least for me) the most complicated and costly solution. For some applications as very high power audio amplifiers this appears to be even almost impossible to do without huge efforts.
Though probably a less "perfect" solution but much easier and less expensive, why not just using high power line noise suppression isolating transformers (for example Ultra-Isolator from manufactorer Topaz)?
First they are much less liable to DC core saturation than torodial transformers and second due the incredible low primary to secondary winding feedthrough capacitance they are able to attenuate most of all that line noise garbage You are talking about.
Though this transformers are really expensive (up to 1k$) when new they can be bought as surplus or second hand at places like ebay for low money.
Besides this the part of folks among You having 230V AC power line can use the split secondary windings for implementing a "balanced" AC power line system and thereby improving line grounding.
Christoph
As this might be the ultimate approach to solve the power line noise problem completly, it seems to be (at least for me) the most complicated and costly solution. For some applications as very high power audio amplifiers this appears to be even almost impossible to do without huge efforts.
Though probably a less "perfect" solution but much easier and less expensive, why not just using high power line noise suppression isolating transformers (for example Ultra-Isolator from manufactorer Topaz)?
First they are much less liable to DC core saturation than torodial transformers and second due the incredible low primary to secondary winding feedthrough capacitance they are able to attenuate most of all that line noise garbage You are talking about.
Though this transformers are really expensive (up to 1k$) when new they can be bought as surplus or second hand at places like ebay for low money.
Besides this the part of folks among You having 230V AC power line can use the split secondary windings for implementing a "balanced" AC power line system and thereby improving line grounding.
Christoph
I remember the old tube AM marine radio on my fishing boat had a motor generator to jack up the battery power to higher volts. When you transmitted, the motor would whine up to speed -pretty cool. I have demonstrated my ignorance before so I am not hesitant to ask which kind of AC motors will function as alternators? It seems that there are various kinds. No need to mention 3 phase-it makes my head hurt. 😉
Do motors with start-up caps work? Do oil filled caps sound better? hahaha. Actually, would it be a good idea to have a snubber on the driven motor to quell any noise caused by it?
They don't have brushes-right?
Pretty amusing, what WOULD the efficiency probably be?
This really might work on low power amps.
I have a 1000VA TOpaz and have asked about it in the past. Any more info?
Do motors with start-up caps work? Do oil filled caps sound better? hahaha. Actually, would it be a good idea to have a snubber on the driven motor to quell any noise caused by it?
They don't have brushes-right?
Pretty amusing, what WOULD the efficiency probably be?
This really might work on low power amps.
I have a 1000VA TOpaz and have asked about it in the past. Any more info?
HPotter, the waveform from an UPS is generally considered woeful. When feeding a computer’s switch-mode supply this doesn’t really matter, but clearly defeats the purpose when feeding audio. When the mains AC is connected it also serves as a filter, probably leading to the improvements you mentioned.
Cheers,
Pete
Cheers,
Pete
You could probably just have a look at the one you have and build the filter part of it, as that's what's doing the work at the moment. However for that price it would probably cost you more to build your own v just going out and buying another.
Glad your happy with it.
Glad your happy with it.
Though probably a less "perfect" solution but much easier and less expensive, why not just using high power line noise suppression isolating transformers (for example Ultra-Isolator from manufactorer Topaz)?
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I have two Topazs which are really noisy and have to be sited outside.
They sound ok but not as good as ac regenerators.
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I have two Topazs which are really noisy and have to be sited outside.
They sound ok but not as good as ac regenerators.
FETHEAD
As Pete pointed out, what we need is DC. So why not have the AC motor drive a DC generator? Does that eliminate the need for a transformer if the Dc volts are right? - It IS isolated! Most DC motors will work like generators too, right?
The flywheel would be a good touch
How would I get a Plus and minus supply for my Son o Zen?
two generators?
Maybe better to make the Aleph finally.
As Pete pointed out, what we need is DC. So why not have the AC motor drive a DC generator? Does that eliminate the need for a transformer if the Dc volts are right? - It IS isolated! Most DC motors will work like generators too, right?
The flywheel would be a good touch
How would I get a Plus and minus supply for my Son o Zen?
two generators?
Maybe better to make the Aleph finally.
DOH ! !
Variac,
I did not think of using a DC motor/generator. Good idea! One possible problem is that there will be arcing from the brushes and this will have to be filtered out. And, yes you will have to find a motor that will put out the right amount of voltage or more and enough current. You could run it slower for less voltage. Two identical motors should do for plus and minus. I suggest you do some testing of this arrangement with lamps or dummy loads before you put this on your prize amp to be sure that the two motors are putting out equal voltages and sharing the load.
For what little it is worth, I think you guys are going to WAY too much trouble if you are really going to build these things. For a lot less bucks than expesive transformers, and a lot less trouble than motor generators and "AC regenerators" you ought to just use choke input power supplies and forget this other stuff. I say this as a convert to choke input filters who wont use anything else on his own amps.
That said, these other ideas are fun to kick around. 🙂
Variac,
I did not think of using a DC motor/generator. Good idea! One possible problem is that there will be arcing from the brushes and this will have to be filtered out. And, yes you will have to find a motor that will put out the right amount of voltage or more and enough current. You could run it slower for less voltage. Two identical motors should do for plus and minus. I suggest you do some testing of this arrangement with lamps or dummy loads before you put this on your prize amp to be sure that the two motors are putting out equal voltages and sharing the load.
For what little it is worth, I think you guys are going to WAY too much trouble if you are really going to build these things. For a lot less bucks than expesive transformers, and a lot less trouble than motor generators and "AC regenerators" you ought to just use choke input power supplies and forget this other stuff. I say this as a convert to choke input filters who wont use anything else on his own amps.
That said, these other ideas are fun to kick around. 🙂
TWO GENERATORS??????
Trying to keep two generators in sync is too much like work. Center taps on secondary windings of transformers are much less effort.
cyclotronguy
Trying to keep two generators in sync is too much like work. Center taps on secondary windings of transformers are much less effort.
cyclotronguy
No problem, I'm an Elder because I'm all talk (write?) and no action. Saves me a lot of time 🙂 The chance of me actually doing this is slight I guess..... but......The dryer or washer idea shows there are millions of them out there in junkyards..
Well, One thing I like about this is the idea of eliminating the huge transformer that some amps have. No transformers would be required in the amp at all. Of course an amp with 12 volt supply needs would be the most practical thanks to the milllions of car alternators or generators out there. The plus and minus supply would be pretty crazy to get in sync, without active regulation, so forget that.
So, say I had an amp that needs 12 volt rails and ground, no plus and minus, ( or a car stereo amp of audiophoile pretensions? -an oxymoron?)
Most cars now use alternators with a rectifier. This would be the cheapest and best way to go, but are we back to square one?
How clean is the DC from a rectified alternator? We probably still need lots of caps. Of course 12 volt Autto ones are huge and sometimes surplus..
This is the perfect adjunct to Grey Rollins Water cooled Aleph.
It all needs to be in a basement or crawlspace!!
If we use a generator, the brushes would have to have snubbers, or is there a brushlesss generator out there?
I'm not poised to build this, but it's a kinda amusiing idea what with all the recycleble motors out there.
Well, One thing I like about this is the idea of eliminating the huge transformer that some amps have. No transformers would be required in the amp at all. Of course an amp with 12 volt supply needs would be the most practical thanks to the milllions of car alternators or generators out there. The plus and minus supply would be pretty crazy to get in sync, without active regulation, so forget that.
So, say I had an amp that needs 12 volt rails and ground, no plus and minus, ( or a car stereo amp of audiophoile pretensions? -an oxymoron?)
Most cars now use alternators with a rectifier. This would be the cheapest and best way to go, but are we back to square one?
How clean is the DC from a rectified alternator? We probably still need lots of caps. Of course 12 volt Autto ones are huge and sometimes surplus..
This is the perfect adjunct to Grey Rollins Water cooled Aleph.
It all needs to be in a basement or crawlspace!!
If we use a generator, the brushes would have to have snubbers, or is there a brushlesss generator out there?
I'm not poised to build this, but it's a kinda amusiing idea what with all the recycleble motors out there.
Cyclotronguy:
HEee hee, you couldn't resist this one!!
Damn, I thought I was close to the $10, lightbulbs (or dryer heater element), dryer motor, 12 volt alternator, Son o Zen. Talk about your Volksamp!!! Pretty recycly if you don't think about the power generation.
Also it would lower the efficiency to new levels!!! Maybe we could set a new record. BUT sometimes all you need is a few watts, and the SOZ power supply is the expensive part. I was visualizing college guys all over making these.I'm doomed by the Plus Minus unless you have a $10 solution 🙁
I guess the way to go is a battery charger with 2 car batteries-hey that would work!!! right? Would this give me the plus and minus if i connect the battery negative terminals to create the common? Is this the solution I'm looking for?
Mark
HEee hee, you couldn't resist this one!!
Damn, I thought I was close to the $10, lightbulbs (or dryer heater element), dryer motor, 12 volt alternator, Son o Zen. Talk about your Volksamp!!! Pretty recycly if you don't think about the power generation.
Also it would lower the efficiency to new levels!!! Maybe we could set a new record. BUT sometimes all you need is a few watts, and the SOZ power supply is the expensive part. I was visualizing college guys all over making these.I'm doomed by the Plus Minus unless you have a $10 solution 🙁
I guess the way to go is a battery charger with 2 car batteries-hey that would work!!! right? Would this give me the plus and minus if i connect the battery negative terminals to create the common? Is this the solution I'm looking for?
Mark
12 volt
Twelve volt, now you're talking my language! All I need is a Jensen G-610 Imperial or Altec A-5 VOT, a little more space. Actually a lot more space..... sigh!
Cyclotronguy
Twelve volt, now you're talking my language! All I need is a Jensen G-610 Imperial or Altec A-5 VOT, a little more space. Actually a lot more space..... sigh!
Cyclotronguy
You guys sync!
Hey guys, we're talking DC here. No need for sycronization. (or however you spell it.) If you were using AC generators then yes you would have to sync them. But that could be done by connecting them on a solid shaft.
BTW this motor generator set up would probably be bigger than a transformer (and maybe transformer, chokes and capacitors) for the same amount of DC power. The motor generator would be more of a conversation piece.
The alternators will probably also require filtering as they also generate noise. But automotive noise filters are available at radio shack amongst other places. Another advantage of alternators is that they have built in voltage regulators. While *I* have not tryed it, *you* could probably wire 2 alternators in series and have +/-12 VDC. (actually more like +/- 13 to 14 V) The common lead would be "ground." They should be identical units so that the voltages remain close to the same at various loads. Two 12 volt batteries, one across each alternator, would also be a good idea.
Because this is just a discussion and nobody (in their write mind) is going to build any of this you could in theory run 4 alternators in series and have +/- 26 VDC or so. (Do any of you have any welding rods? 🙂 ) And there is really no reason that we have to drive this off of some whimpy dryer motor. Heck no! Go to some garage sale and get a lawn mower engine and run all of the alternators off of that. Now you can take your whole stereo and go camping! You could enjoy tunes even if the local power company fails!
Whew! this is too much fun. I am going back to reality for a while.
Hey guys, we're talking DC here. No need for sycronization. (or however you spell it.) If you were using AC generators then yes you would have to sync them. But that could be done by connecting them on a solid shaft.
BTW this motor generator set up would probably be bigger than a transformer (and maybe transformer, chokes and capacitors) for the same amount of DC power. The motor generator would be more of a conversation piece.
The alternators will probably also require filtering as they also generate noise. But automotive noise filters are available at radio shack amongst other places. Another advantage of alternators is that they have built in voltage regulators. While *I* have not tryed it, *you* could probably wire 2 alternators in series and have +/-12 VDC. (actually more like +/- 13 to 14 V) The common lead would be "ground." They should be identical units so that the voltages remain close to the same at various loads. Two 12 volt batteries, one across each alternator, would also be a good idea.
Because this is just a discussion and nobody (in their write mind) is going to build any of this you could in theory run 4 alternators in series and have +/- 26 VDC or so. (Do any of you have any welding rods? 🙂 ) And there is really no reason that we have to drive this off of some whimpy dryer motor. Heck no! Go to some garage sale and get a lawn mower engine and run all of the alternators off of that. Now you can take your whole stereo and go camping! You could enjoy tunes even if the local power company fails!
Whew! this is too much fun. I am going back to reality for a while.
Out of my mind
Bigger, heavier, conversation piece yes.
Insane- of course
Absolutely free (almost) YES
All these pieces could be picked up for free or a nominal fee
by a marginally clever person. Electric motors, auto alternators, maybe batteries, are trash or recycling at best. 1000VA toroidal transformers with 100k of caps have cost me hundreds.
The water pump for the Rollins Memorial water cooling scheme can be run off the motor too- now we saved a couple of hundred in heatsinks, when you also pick up the radiator at the salvage yard........
Bigger, heavier, conversation piece yes.
Insane- of course
Absolutely free (almost) YES
All these pieces could be picked up for free or a nominal fee
by a marginally clever person. Electric motors, auto alternators, maybe batteries, are trash or recycling at best. 1000VA toroidal transformers with 100k of caps have cost me hundreds.
The water pump for the Rollins Memorial water cooling scheme can be run off the motor too- now we saved a couple of hundred in heatsinks, when you also pick up the radiator at the salvage yard........
sonovagun
While I was away at the reality scene it dawned on me - you should get a Briggs & Stratton lawn mower engine. That way you can power your son of zen amp with a son of BS power supply. 🙂
How did this web site ever get along before I signed on?
(Probably a lot better! 🙂 )
While I was away at the reality scene it dawned on me - you should get a Briggs & Stratton lawn mower engine. That way you can power your son of zen amp with a son of BS power supply. 🙂
How did this web site ever get along before I signed on?
(Probably a lot better! 🙂 )
Car alternators will produce 14.3 volts at *idle* and up to a point the output voltage is dependent on speed. Build an external regulator and use a large pulley on the motor that drives the alternator. Paradoxially, neglecting windage and friction, for a given wattage output the faster the alternator is spun the easier it is to turn (needs less torque) so even if you put a very large pulley on the drive motor it doesn't have to work any harder.
I once had a motor driven alternator and with a constant 12v on the rotor, at ~6000 alternator rpm it made 28 volts. A choke input filter would work very well with this kind of setup. Full wave rectified 3-phase from the alt theoretically has only 2% ripple BEFORE it goes on to the filter!
GP.
I once had a motor driven alternator and with a constant 12v on the rotor, at ~6000 alternator rpm it made 28 volts. A choke input filter would work very well with this kind of setup. Full wave rectified 3-phase from the alt theoretically has only 2% ripple BEFORE it goes on to the filter!
GP.
A further thought on alternators - The stator windings are usually star connected internally. Bring the star point out as the zero volt connection. (like the transformer centre tap). Put a big cap from the star point to the + ouptut. This becomes the upper rail. Another big cap from the star point to alt frame. This is the lower rail. Use external reg as before.
There you have it + / - at least 28vdc from one alternator. 🙂
GP.
There you have it + / - at least 28vdc from one alternator. 🙂
GP.
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