One of the best materials for decopling, deadening, adsorbing, defusing....is sand.
You can't be creative enough with that material.
Fill it into pouches to hang it in the enclosure.
Put it between layers of cloth sheets.
Create flexible side walls of OB speakers(Leather)
Fill cavities of PVA clue sprayed cardboard.
Fill little balloons as feet for speakers.
Put it into the back chamber of compression drivers.....
Experiment with different grain sizes..,...
So much to explore so little time,😭
Klaus
You can't be creative enough with that material.
Fill it into pouches to hang it in the enclosure.
Put it between layers of cloth sheets.
Create flexible side walls of OB speakers(Leather)
Fill cavities of PVA clue sprayed cardboard.
Fill little balloons as feet for speakers.
Put it into the back chamber of compression drivers.....
Experiment with different grain sizes..,...
So much to explore so little time,😭
Klaus
Coming back to the initial question "absolute-limits-of-ob-vs-reflex-vs-sealed-vs-tl-vs-horn-heuristics"
Assuming we have a Ripole as a subwoofer and are using DSP anyway, is it possible to get rid of the boxy sound
in this kind of Duevel desingn. I might try using a coax insted of two separate units:
Assuming we have a Ripole as a subwoofer and are using DSP anyway, is it possible to get rid of the boxy sound
in this kind of Duevel desingn. I might try using a coax insted of two separate units:
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Its not the dipole priciple that gives the OB desings its character but the reflected sound.
On the contrary dipoles suffer from frequency nulls while omnidirectional monopoles are basically free of this.
Its the boxy sound of closed boxes that conserns me most. Its hard to go back to closed boxes once you experienced
OB.
I know that some manufacturers successfully diminished the boxy sound by avoiding any symetry within the enclosure.
On the contrary dipoles suffer from frequency nulls while omnidirectional monopoles are basically free of this.
Its the boxy sound of closed boxes that conserns me most. Its hard to go back to closed boxes once you experienced
OB.
I know that some manufacturers successfully diminished the boxy sound by avoiding any symetry within the enclosure.
Painlesss coming from a what kind of dipole to what kind of speaker?
What Perry created with the Live Edge Dipoles is really really hard to beat. Closed box no chance. BLH no chance. Fullrange or Fast no chance.
Been there done that. I must say though 15 years ago I was impressed by my Fonken Fostex enbld combo but those zero xmax speakers
loose their composure once orchestral material is played. Small fullrangers have their magic but once you have a real benchmark..............
What Perry created with the Live Edge Dipoles is really really hard to beat. Closed box no chance. BLH no chance. Fullrange or Fast no chance.
Been there done that. I must say though 15 years ago I was impressed by my Fonken Fostex enbld combo but those zero xmax speakers
loose their composure once orchestral material is played. Small fullrangers have their magic but once you have a real benchmark..............
I have been building speakers for some 50 years.
We built more than a few OBs, and i have heard many more. They all suffer from the same problem… even outside. The time delayed stuff off the backside masks small detail, decreases DDR.
As we learned more about how to build unboxy box speakers, OBs just became irrelevant to me.
BTW, one of the boxiest speakers i have ever heard was an OB.
dave
We built more than a few OBs, and i have heard many more. They all suffer from the same problem… even outside. The time delayed stuff off the backside masks small detail, decreases DDR.
As we learned more about how to build unboxy box speakers, OBs just became irrelevant to me.
BTW, one of the boxiest speakers i have ever heard was an OB.
dave
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I understand that it comes down to a preference.
I have to say that in general, despite their deficiencies in frequency response, I like fullrange speakers. That't because I am sensitive to phase/crossovers in the midband. Then we come to the choice of small vs. large fullrange. Small ones have flatter fr response, sound nice.
But... No matter what you do, they lack the dynamics, and the majority has low efficiency.
Then, box vs. OB....
I still did not manage to build a box that did not sound boxy. Thus, I lean toward Open Baffles. (Despite their defficiencies)
Then, when we come to the choice of fullrange... Hm.. again, I lean toward 8" or more. Why? Dynamics and the scale of presentation that small fullrangers cannot match.
Hence, for me: Big OB.
Small FR, for the bedroom.
It's like comparing a big steak with an ice-cream.
Small FR is like an ice-cream. Nice, but you are still hungry. Big speakers - raw meat (sorry vegetarians) 😀
I have to say that in general, despite their deficiencies in frequency response, I like fullrange speakers. That't because I am sensitive to phase/crossovers in the midband. Then we come to the choice of small vs. large fullrange. Small ones have flatter fr response, sound nice.
But... No matter what you do, they lack the dynamics, and the majority has low efficiency.
Then, box vs. OB....
I still did not manage to build a box that did not sound boxy. Thus, I lean toward Open Baffles. (Despite their defficiencies)
Then, when we come to the choice of fullrange... Hm.. again, I lean toward 8" or more. Why? Dynamics and the scale of presentation that small fullrangers cannot match.
Hence, for me: Big OB.
Small FR, for the bedroom.
It's like comparing a big steak with an ice-cream.
Small FR is like an ice-cream. Nice, but you are still hungry. Big speakers - raw meat (sorry vegetarians) 😀
Ones you take them out of the shipping box they sound better.
Seriously there is no physical reason why OB speakers can sound boxy.
It only takes one counter example to make one wonde rwher eyou are wrong.
A big “unsupported” baffle that vibrates … this particualr oe also had wings.
dave
Btw a masking of small detail is usually caused by to little distance to the back and/or side walls. If the time delay is big enough our brains automatically separate the signals. Hence the better spacial representation.
It pays off to spend a fair amount of effort on speaker placement
It pays off to spend a fair amount of effort on speaker placement
Yes, and by Radian’s suggestion then MOST loudspeakers are flawed.
In fact, all loudspeakers are flawed. The art of speaker design is what flaws the designer decides can be lived with. More commonly phrased as the art of loudspeaker design is the choice of compromises that will be made.
dave
The time delay needed is usually larger than is possible in a typical domestic situation.
dave
Despite what @Radian wrote - and exceptions are the rule, OK ? 😉 - all the tests I made with different Omega Ripole sizes...
... Proved rather unsuccessful for frequencies over 60 to 80Hz and over, cut at 24dB/Oct. and yes, they have then that famous nasal sound for the higher frequencies, as described by @danibosn.
A friend of mine, with its two big 2x18" Ripoles, cuts them at 60Hz, after tests at higher frequencies :
Axel Ridtahler, the Ripole principle inventor, mentions a high and sharp resonant peak of the chambers located from 200 to 400hz usually, depending on the size of the Ripole cabinet and the speaker used :
This would explain IMHO that unpleasant boxy nasal tone, occuring for frequencies approaching from near or far these critical resonant frequencies.
With my Omega Ripole (2x12", the smaller have been dismantled now), I set the FC at 40Hz to 60Hz with 12 or 24dB/oct. I use them only as an infra-bass complement, under the natural cut-off of the enclosures they work with.
IMHO, this is the best way to use Ripole principle : infra-bass only. But as I wrote, and in accordance with @Radian : there's exceptions, I guess !
@danibosn : maybe you choose a too high FC or a too smooth crossover slope ? 🤔 At least, it's the 1st idea coming to my mind, by my experience...
T
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If the boxy sounding OB had wings and the wings were parallel to each other then that could easily explain a boxy sound. Basically, the wings set up a standing wave that is not damped by traditional box walls.