You don’t start with the drivers. You start with the (room) requirements. The sound field needed for an adequate amount of direct vs reverberant. A thought about dealing with low frequency problems a.k.a. room modes. The size and design accepted by spouses or clients. Or by yourself 😉. Some definition of the bandwidth one wishes for, and the max SPL at listening position(s). These issues largely dictate the driver selection, along with distortion requirements and the way the drivers can be combined.
I would say it the opposite... "you can have the best drivers, but with a mediocre crossover design the result is only trash".
Sometimes I am not 100% convinced if the project with good/expensive drivers was not only better at the end because you spent a lot more time on it.
A nice sentence to that topic from Troels Gravesen is in the direction that the main benefit of expensive drivers is a little more power capability before they show compression/distortion.
Regards J-C
Yep, you must decide what drivers.
If you want a 15” or 18” for bass duties, this design decision will affect all other parameters.
so start with the bass cab size and desired bass driver size…
its related to the 2pi or direct sound.
the wider the front baffle, the lower the midrange “stays”in 2pi. This is my very basic and probably wrong understanding
some argue that the wider the baffle, the worst the imagin
but ime, who cares about imagin if the mid sounds diffused due to the acoustics
I don't think large baffles have a problem with imaging.
Baffle support is important to control room interaction. This can smooth the acoustic behaviour in a number of important ways.
Baffle support is important to control room interaction. This can smooth the acoustic behaviour in a number of important ways.
See, if you do not have a concept, you can not build the right loudspeaker for your self. What you should have understood by now, there is no "best speaker" in this world, as it interacts with the room it is in and, in general, with your overall situation.
I already told you what would fit for YOU and YOUR skills: Build a good, small 2-way kit with a reputation and add a low frequency extension, which may be the kit's cabinet extended, which acts as a speaker stand at the same time or separate sub woofer. This is something that gives you a base to dive deeper into speaker building. You can prevent to learn how to measure and get a good result, worth time and money, by going this way. As this thread shows, learning something is not really appreciated by you.
If you could measure, the next step might be a DSP to even better match the speaker to the room.
Sure there are other concepts that may fit too, but this one has a good chance to lead to a satisfying result.
You start to repeat your own questions and do not react to advice others give, That is a Troll's behavior.
I already told you what would fit for YOU and YOUR skills: Build a good, small 2-way kit with a reputation and add a low frequency extension, which may be the kit's cabinet extended, which acts as a speaker stand at the same time or separate sub woofer. This is something that gives you a base to dive deeper into speaker building. You can prevent to learn how to measure and get a good result, worth time and money, by going this way. As this thread shows, learning something is not really appreciated by you.
If you could measure, the next step might be a DSP to even better match the speaker to the room.
Sure there are other concepts that may fit too, but this one has a good chance to lead to a satisfying result.
You start to repeat your own questions and do not react to advice others give, That is a Troll's behavior.
Hi i have a 4.5x6x3 meter room Speaker baffle max width could be 20" or so Height is less critical I would much prefer speakers that can work close to the front wall (i.e. very little inside the room)
I have decided to abandon the idea of a 3 way completely It is just too complicated for me at this moment A 2 way should be quite easier to calculate
I do not want to sound like a broken record but i have been shocked about the influence of cabinet design and construction of sound I am not exaggerating At the point that taking any cheap commercial speaker and redoing its cabinet could be very beneficial Very very
Or at least bracing and weighing down it Especially of course in the lower registers And as a confirmation i see that the very best speakers usually are also very very heavy and stiff. I was impressed sincerely.
Perfect. The xover is the very issue. On this basis i will focus only on a 2 way design A 2 way should be more basic than a 3 way
Not too limited on the bass This should mean at least a 7" woofer ?
i look for very low distortion Imho is the key to great sound absolutely Distortion is not music unless it is created on purpose with effects
But not amplified music reproduction is what really interest me ... the realism of tones and also a nice 3D effect
As i said above i am reverting to a 2 way idea This discussion has been very valuable to me to understand how fundamental and challenging is the design of a good 3 way xover Too much for me at this moment
Now the problem is to get a reasonably wide in Hz and low in distortion response from a 2 way
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Thanks a lot. This is indeed my idea ... i start to think that i have a PA mind ... to be eccentric i could put the HF driver above the bass cab and not in the bass cab Do i have to look at PA design ? the only way to have an accepatable range coverage with a 2 way
I lived with small 2 way speakers ... i have been missing to much of the lower spectrum Unacceptable limitation Usually no serious bass below 100Hz
Cute for sure ... but not exciting at all
Gino, there is a good quality Scan Speak 2.5 way high end project Ophelia consisting of 2x18W 8531 G00 and D2908 / 714000 per cabinet designed by Klang+Ton tech staff. Filter network is fairly simple (7 parts only) and the drivers well behaved, FR and distortion measurements presented with schematic in magazine Klang+Ton, April/May 2014. Sensitivity 89dB, rated impedance 4 ohms, F3 about 35Hz.
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A couple of nice 15" or 18" subs can be made quite cheap, it is very nice in stereo especially on some older recordings a single mono sub is simply not good enough, if you use some decent 2 way speakers for the rest you should be golden.
"There is no replacement for displacement."
Next year I will make some new subs, and some 2 way tops to go with. Starting to plan my signal chain now.
PA doesnt mean bad sound imo
actually its the other way around, but thats another debate
I think that going with a big woofer is a great choice. just like you, i was never satisfied with bass output from small drivers.
my system is a perfect example of what sort of BIG 3 ways you can build on the cheap with excellent SQ.
Hi thanks a lot and i am sure of their quality However i should have said this at the beginning ... i spend my life looking for so called giants killer i.s. units that provide performance well above their cost More simply units with a high Q/P ration The drivers you mention are very very expensive And the sum will be very high for a 1st project I have to start lower because the result could be very poor
However i am noticing that many commercial speakers come with the mid high section looking very similar to a center speaker channel ... MTM arrangement
With the addition of a bass box it could be quite full range The only thing of which i am completely sure is that the woofers will have their own cabinet
But again MTM can be done with dome Ms or cone Ms ... sorry to sound like a broken record
I had in the past a Tannoy 611 that i guess should be like that ? i did not like them I liked more the 609 of which i still have the drivers and xovers
Exactly my feeling The bass is like a fundation of the sound ... the corner stone A good 8" is a minimum for a decent bass And the bigger the better
When i see many small woofers moving with big excursions the word distortion immediately comes to mind The less a cone moves the better
Well,
small size of a Speaker comes at a prize… low efficiency and/or no deep bass and/or higher costs for quality drivers.
If you want/are allowed (WAF) to have a big speaker then its certainly preferable.
But this question is the first step in speaker decision, not crossover frequencies…
And the first DIY speaker should be a proven Kit, a self-designed speaker from ground is a completely different thing. One who can do this does not ask your questions.
Regards, Jean-Claude
small size of a Speaker comes at a prize… low efficiency and/or no deep bass and/or higher costs for quality drivers.
If you want/are allowed (WAF) to have a big speaker then its certainly preferable.
But this question is the first step in speaker decision, not crossover frequencies…
And the first DIY speaker should be a proven Kit, a self-designed speaker from ground is a completely different thing. One who can do this does not ask your questions.
Regards, Jean-Claude
the cabinet is my show stopper As i said the guy is willing to help me but he clearly needs some specs
I think i will ask him to build just and very heavy cubic cabinet ... like those for subs And i put other drivers on a small baffle above it
He has already made two towers for himself very very dead at the knocking test Impressive
There is no way around it but to start making decisions, first whether or not you will use your own driver stash, if yes then inform us what they are and what are the ones yet to be acquired. Phase of choosing main woofer unit(s) includes deciding what cabinet type you believe you need. After that, how is the filter network to be designed (your own measurements, someone elses or simulated using official datasheet). Price bracket would be handy.