I have some old ugly heavy huge speakers I build in 1980, but they still sound good and like my old truck I just can't bring myself to totally break with them -so right off the bat you experts should take note this is not an entirely rational thread about getting the best possible sound.....
Anyway I just finished some built-in cabinets in my living room which don't leave room for these large speakers -there is less than 10" of width now for stereo speakers. My plan was to buy some polks, which look nice and are tall and narrow. That would end the strange looks my senior citizen friends have the first time the see those scratched up big boxes that look like an 18 year old built many decades ago that are prominently displayed in my house...
As I sat around on this frozen morning I began thinking about building myself some new cabinets when winter time ends. I could make nicer cabinets now -as I have more money, tools and know how (not that any of those bars were set very high in 1980). If I could reuse my old drivers I could maintain my irrational attachment to the new speakers.
But my old speakers have 12" woofers, and so those can not be forward facing in the new cabinets, because there is less than 10" of width for the new speakers to sit.
I read that to side mount speakers the drives should be outputting only 80Hz and below, or else your ears will notice sounds coming from different locations. That means the 12" drivers would become passive sub-woofers in the new enclosures.
There are two other drivers in my old enclosures: a 6" sealed mid-range and 1" soft dome tweeter.
So can I move the 12" driver to the side, and just feed it with a 80Hz low pass filter in parallel to a new two way crossover that gives the mid range more bass (assuming that old peerless can handle more bass and if not I'll buy a new woofer/mid)? My question here has to do with how to do the crossover to make the 12" driver a passive sub..
Is a passive subwoofer in each cabinet a bad idea for some reason?
How badly does this idea make your head hurt and why? Thanks in advance.
Anyway I just finished some built-in cabinets in my living room which don't leave room for these large speakers -there is less than 10" of width now for stereo speakers. My plan was to buy some polks, which look nice and are tall and narrow. That would end the strange looks my senior citizen friends have the first time the see those scratched up big boxes that look like an 18 year old built many decades ago that are prominently displayed in my house...
As I sat around on this frozen morning I began thinking about building myself some new cabinets when winter time ends. I could make nicer cabinets now -as I have more money, tools and know how (not that any of those bars were set very high in 1980). If I could reuse my old drivers I could maintain my irrational attachment to the new speakers.
But my old speakers have 12" woofers, and so those can not be forward facing in the new cabinets, because there is less than 10" of width for the new speakers to sit.
I read that to side mount speakers the drives should be outputting only 80Hz and below, or else your ears will notice sounds coming from different locations. That means the 12" drivers would become passive sub-woofers in the new enclosures.
There are two other drivers in my old enclosures: a 6" sealed mid-range and 1" soft dome tweeter.
So can I move the 12" driver to the side, and just feed it with a 80Hz low pass filter in parallel to a new two way crossover that gives the mid range more bass (assuming that old peerless can handle more bass and if not I'll buy a new woofer/mid)? My question here has to do with how to do the crossover to make the 12" driver a passive sub..
Is a passive subwoofer in each cabinet a bad idea for some reason?
How badly does this idea make your head hurt and why? Thanks in advance.
A passive crossover at 80Hz is theoretically possible, but will require components that are very large in value.
Probably cheaper to find a pair of half-decent 10" woofers and run them up to the 6" closed-back midrange.
Chris
Probably cheaper to find a pair of half-decent 10" woofers and run them up to the 6" closed-back midrange.
Chris
Thanks Chris, I trust you are correct and some new woofers may be the best way forward.
But help me understand why an 80HZ loss pass filter combined with a 2 way crossover for the other 2 drivers does not achieve the goal of making the 12" driver a subwoofer?
Is the only problem here the mid range would then be also be receiving signals below 80Hz? And why is that a problem? (I'm thinking people use smaller drivers in speakers all the time without filtering the bottom end -and the such speakers just cannot play those frequencies well).
I guess I'm asking why a 80Hz low pass filter is not all you need to make a passive subwoofer.
Thanks for your patience ....
But help me understand why an 80HZ loss pass filter combined with a 2 way crossover for the other 2 drivers does not achieve the goal of making the 12" driver a subwoofer?
Is the only problem here the mid range would then be also be receiving signals below 80Hz? And why is that a problem? (I'm thinking people use smaller drivers in speakers all the time without filtering the bottom end -and the such speakers just cannot play those frequencies well).
I guess I'm asking why a 80Hz low pass filter is not all you need to make a passive subwoofer.
Thanks for your patience ....
The 12 inch woofers you Have are probably alot of the sound you love.
if the 6inch is (sealed back) midrange, it is likely the crossover is up in the 500-1.2khz region. dropping that to 80hz for side facing woofers would make a mess of that midrange.
if you want to keep them sounding the same but in new boxes? how about building the woofer and midtweeter boxes separately? Would this allow you to fit them?
alternatively? if you place them toward the sides of your listening couch or such? could the Gradiant you could introduce, or angle, allow the woofers to be facing inwards, also the mids and tweeters too.
by making the boxes deeper, (to maintain there volume) and placing the woofers on the front of a angled cabinet that is 10 inches? it is likely the angle of the front needed to fit a twelve would mean they where only 'directed inwardly facing' a acceptable amount.
if the boxes the midtweeters where in where built seperately you could simply angle the entire boxes so they all face inwards.
but it may be best to build the entire lot in to two main cabinets simply with a sloping or angled front. should sound fine, especially if they could be tucked to the sides of furniture to negligent the diffractions.
If you can provide a photo of the Setup, and where you wish the speakers to be, I can better see and do a doodle to demonstrate
ps: if you where to change drivers you would need to change crossover and so on, it is true you could get a better sound, with work. but if you like the sound you have best to keep it as it is.
if the 6inch is (sealed back) midrange, it is likely the crossover is up in the 500-1.2khz region. dropping that to 80hz for side facing woofers would make a mess of that midrange.
if you want to keep them sounding the same but in new boxes? how about building the woofer and midtweeter boxes separately? Would this allow you to fit them?
alternatively? if you place them toward the sides of your listening couch or such? could the Gradiant you could introduce, or angle, allow the woofers to be facing inwards, also the mids and tweeters too.
by making the boxes deeper, (to maintain there volume) and placing the woofers on the front of a angled cabinet that is 10 inches? it is likely the angle of the front needed to fit a twelve would mean they where only 'directed inwardly facing' a acceptable amount.
if the boxes the midtweeters where in where built seperately you could simply angle the entire boxes so they all face inwards.
but it may be best to build the entire lot in to two main cabinets simply with a sloping or angled front. should sound fine, especially if they could be tucked to the sides of furniture to negligent the diffractions.
If you can provide a photo of the Setup, and where you wish the speakers to be, I can better see and do a doodle to demonstrate
ps: if you where to change drivers you would need to change crossover and so on, it is true you could get a better sound, with work. but if you like the sound you have best to keep it as it is.
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Theoretical room depicting some inbuilt furniture with gaps to fit speakers
12 inch woofer located on 10 inch wide baffle by using angle and careful speaker placement
for every inch width you can fit. for example 10.5 inch or 11, would more shallow the angle. Im not one to do the maths. You would need
cabinet thickness. driver mounting depth and width, then you can ascertain the angle needed and see if it is acceptable.
a sketch or picture of the actual room would help the idea/planning phase.
12 inch woofer located on 10 inch wide baffle by using angle and careful speaker placement
for every inch width you can fit. for example 10.5 inch or 11, would more shallow the angle. Im not one to do the maths. You would need
cabinet thickness. driver mounting depth and width, then you can ascertain the angle needed and see if it is acceptable.
a sketch or picture of the actual room would help the idea/planning phase.
Attachments
WaVeInFoRm,
"The 12 inch woofers you Have are probably a lot of the sound you love."
I had not thought of that, but its kinda obvious once pointed out.
I took measurements just now and I could just fit a 14" wide speaker in the new set up (but my current speakers are 16.25" width). So the old woofers could face forward with new wide cabinets.
I like the look of the tall and thin speakers, and that was to be a part of this living room up-grade, but you have given me much to think about.
I have a pair of tall thin polks down stairs, and I was always surprised by their punchy bass given their small drivers (dual 4" I think), but they have an active sub-woofer as part of the system -again something obvious I was missing.
While my old speakers are not so punchy I do like their sound better (not that I could be all that objective). They have just as much bass, but somehow its more reserved, better for music I think. The other system is great for movies.
I'll need to think on this...
"The 12 inch woofers you Have are probably a lot of the sound you love."
I had not thought of that, but its kinda obvious once pointed out.
I took measurements just now and I could just fit a 14" wide speaker in the new set up (but my current speakers are 16.25" width). So the old woofers could face forward with new wide cabinets.
I like the look of the tall and thin speakers, and that was to be a part of this living room up-grade, but you have given me much to think about.
I have a pair of tall thin polks down stairs, and I was always surprised by their punchy bass given their small drivers (dual 4" I think), but they have an active sub-woofer as part of the system -again something obvious I was missing.
While my old speakers are not so punchy I do like their sound better (not that I could be all that objective). They have just as much bass, but somehow its more reserved, better for music I think. The other system is great for movies.
I'll need to think on this...
WaVeInFoRm,
"The 12 inch woofers you Have are probably alot of the sound you love. "
That's seems so obvious once you point it out. I like your ideas so much I just measured my room. I can fit a new speaker up to 13-3/4" width. But I had in mind tall and thin speakers because I liked the look of them. (My old enclosures are 16-1/4" wide).
But I do like the sound of the ones I have.
There is no furniture to left or right, my speakers are the last pieces of furniture along the wall on both the left and right, with a hallway on the left and a stairway on the right.
So your reply has given me much to think about. I will have to play around with sound angled designs... Thx !
"The 12 inch woofers you Have are probably alot of the sound you love. "
That's seems so obvious once you point it out. I like your ideas so much I just measured my room. I can fit a new speaker up to 13-3/4" width. But I had in mind tall and thin speakers because I liked the look of them. (My old enclosures are 16-1/4" wide).
But I do like the sound of the ones I have.
There is no furniture to left or right, my speakers are the last pieces of furniture along the wall on both the left and right, with a hallway on the left and a stairway on the right.
So your reply has given me much to think about. I will have to play around with sound angled designs... Thx !
As they will/would be less wide, Can make them Taller.
This would have the advantage of them being floor standing/not needing stands
you can keep the driver layout on the front baffle the same, just elongate the box so the bass driver is a foot -1.5foot from the ground. can also make the boxes less deep to maintain there volume as it is.
if you can fit them on a flat front then the angled baffle isnt required. However with them to the sides of the room, with a stairway one side and a hall at the other, some inward angling may actually be beneficial, like wedge shaped, so they DO Sound into the area you listen and watch movies in well. (mainly the midbass-highs would benefit) And fit into there crevices dimension wise.
a diagram would aid.
so imagine the front baffle. chop off the excess at the sides, and put it underneath, the reshaping would mean the new cabinets where ...well not exactly tall and slim but taller and slimmer.
'Well Proportioned'
btw: are the current cabinets vented/ported?
P.S: Diagram likely not to scale...
This would have the advantage of them being floor standing/not needing stands
you can keep the driver layout on the front baffle the same, just elongate the box so the bass driver is a foot -1.5foot from the ground. can also make the boxes less deep to maintain there volume as it is.
if you can fit them on a flat front then the angled baffle isnt required. However with them to the sides of the room, with a stairway one side and a hall at the other, some inward angling may actually be beneficial, like wedge shaped, so they DO Sound into the area you listen and watch movies in well. (mainly the midbass-highs would benefit) And fit into there crevices dimension wise.
a diagram would aid.
so imagine the front baffle. chop off the excess at the sides, and put it underneath, the reshaping would mean the new cabinets where ...well not exactly tall and slim but taller and slimmer.
'Well Proportioned'
btw: are the current cabinets vented/ported?
P.S: Diagram likely not to scale...
Attachments
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