Some of the "walking" will sound thinner without a sub, but you can lift it up with DSP.
Anyway, adding a sub is easy, you don't need to build it, there are tons of commercial brands that cost reasonable money. And that would be (if you need it) one last step ....
Anyway, adding a sub is easy, you don't need to build it, there are tons of commercial brands that cost reasonable money. And that would be (if you need it) one last step ....
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I don't have any problems in paying for a design, if it is well described and with a full "numerical" support. The problem is that most if not all of the recent TG designs aren't in this league. Compare the TG documentation to the Kairos (another closed project) writeup, or to the documentation of the Heissmann Acoustics designs to see what I mean. So you are building the recent TG designs only on faith. I suspect that the earlier designs were also more tested than the newer ones.
Another problem with the newer designs is the lack of choice for crossover components, as you are forced to buy useless expensive boutique components. With some designs the cost for the crossover exceed the one of the drivers, and this doesn't make any sense.
Don't take me wrong. TG has done a great work in the past, it was a source of inspiration also for me, but I do find also some (many) faults.
As markbakk said, a minimum distance is needed for the best performance, and this is valid for every speaker. For some kind of design this is mandatory (open baffle, x.5 designs), for some others you can put the speaker a little closer to the walls without too many ill effects (even if it is not optimal).
Having said that, I have to repeat my initial consideration: I wouldn't suggest any of the 3 initial choices, as they are clearly not optimal. The Ekta Grande is IMHO a better choice, as is the Seas 3-Way Classic Mk1.
Ralf
Giralfino, I think Troels makes a fleeting reference to the Ekta Grande being a little more wall friendly (within reason than some of his other designs). He's just got back to me on all of this and seems to suggest that for my wall parameters the Ekta might be a bit more compromised from rear wall reflections than the other two. he's suggesting that DTQWT and Faital don't mind a bit of room gain, but the Ekta 2 will be less tolerant in this regard. His unchanging speaker positioning is pretty much the same as mine re the front and side walls. The diagram is found on his site under "my listening room".
Giralfino, I haven't asked you which speakers you have lived with and enjoyed - your own designs?
Is it a generalization or do you have a real example?
Usually he gives options, kits with accessible components or "super caps." and "super coils".
I can imagine a full xover being close to the value of some controller, but everybody ?
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" Modded NAC72/ Avondale S101 80/90 watts, with NCC220 modules coming soon "
Lupo 1, can you give us details of your amplifiers?
Excuse my ignorance, but I could not find anything on the web, are they Diy?
Lupo 1, can you give us details of your amplifiers?
Excuse my ignorance, but I could not find anything on the web, are they Diy?
The power amp was a diy kit option, but mine was built for me by its designer Les Wolstenholme. The new modules covert the output to fully complementary (whatever that means) The result is higher bias, a slightly warmer box and class A at moderate listening levels, but I have yet to do the work because my modules are stuck at customs! My preamp is an old Naim NAC 72. This is incredibly easy to modify and play around with because, the construction is modular and boards can simply be pulled and replaced without soldering. I found my unmodded NAC 72 a little too insistent - a rather mechanical feel to pace rhythm and timing and somewhat grey in tone. To my ears this has been dealt with brilliantly by changing one key board, more colour, full note envelopes, better female vocals etc. For more on Les W. you should go to Pink Fish Media where he and others like him have quite a following. He is known/notorious for his modification/improvements to the Naim amplifiers and having experienced both, I can say that his mods are a game changer. You can check what he does currently at avondaleaudio.com.
Based on what? You don't have data to compare the two (and data is missing for the SBA-941 design). If I have to build a speaker with SBA drivers I'd build the Kairos with or without the bass module. If one has good wood working abilities the bass module can be made also appealing.
Unfortunately, the options are expensive or more expensive. Take the above SBA-941 design, with the cheaper fabric tweeter:
Level 1 with Amber/Alumen/Silver Z-Cap 1240 Euro for crossover and other bits, 2175 Euro with drivers, meaning the drivers alone are 935 Euro
Level 2 same as above but Alumen vs Amber Z-Cap, price for crossover alone drops to 875 Euro, 1815 Euro with drivers, the drivers alone are now 940 Euro
And in this case there are only air core coils and not the expensive boutique wax ones.
Clearly his margin depends on the Jantzen-Audio margin, thus the choice of only boutique caps, where the profit is huge. I'd rather spend 50-100 euro for a design and choose by myself the most sensible components.
I have direct experience with commercial speaker, also on some expensive ones, all bought used and resold without problems. I designed several speakers, only part of which are presented here. I have a degree in physics, and another one in music, so I'm fairly prepared. But it doesn't need rocket science to understand that the DTQWT is a too big speaker to be properly enjoyed in a relatively small 25 sqm room (and it has also some other flaws too). And frankly you can't ask TG to judge (non chiedere all'oste se il vino è buono).
Ralf
Class A the first Watts and then AB?
Marantz has amps like that, I guess it's not the only one.
Yes, I will read a bit about your amp in that forum, thanks!
Based on Troel's own write up about the SBA 941, "This speaker surely rivals the AT-3WC and also the PRELUDE speakers - and at a much lower price."
Dave at Planet10 has a multi driver design (i don't recall which), that uses DSP, he mentioned a passive xover would be very expensive, probably more than the rest of the speaker. I know some do not believe the more expensive parts are worth it, but this could be due to other factors, hearing and the associated equipment; source, dac, preamp etc.
Dave at Planet10 has a multi driver design (i don't recall which), that uses DSP, he mentioned a passive xover would be very expensive, probably more than the rest of the speaker. I know some do not believe the more expensive parts are worth it, but this could be due to other factors, hearing and the associated equipment; source, dac, preamp etc.
Jantzen does not make the Obbligato and yet Troels promotes them....
Obbligato premium film capacitors
Audiophile capacitors are expensive, and you pay for a design, if you can do it yourself with other components, I think it's excellent.
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You don't need to know rocket science, just listen to them. Have you had a chance? Go ahead, tell me about "the other failures", I have listened to many speakers and I am objective, just to know if we coincide or not ...
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Go to the Heissmann Acoustics site and look yourself what kind of data should be there to properly judge a design. The old TG designs were better than the new ones, now you really only find detailed execution plans.
You don’t know what you are saying:
Capacitors - Jantzen-audio.com
Ralf
😀GIRALFINO
I know what I'm talking about, post 53 was edited by me as soon as I noticed the error, I was referring to Obbligato, it's just a different brand that doesn't change the concept, so try not to be rude, Ok?
(I have a trip to Italy planned as soon as the pandemic ends, do you understand ?) 😡
Here you can see that Troels talks about many brands of capacitors, do you claim that he has commercial interests with all of them ?
super-caps
Troels is a person who likes to transmit his knowledge in an entertaining way, and he really knows a lot about speakers , which does not mean that he often accepts suggestions.
" Comments are welcome if you have corrections to my findings or additional valuable information to better understand this interesting topic."
Something that many of us here value.
Why don't you write to him? Perhaps you could pass on some of your wisdom.
Forget the question of the D / TQWT audition in any of its variants.
I know what I'm talking about, post 53 was edited by me as soon as I noticed the error, I was referring to Obbligato, it's just a different brand that doesn't change the concept, so try not to be rude, Ok?
(I have a trip to Italy planned as soon as the pandemic ends, do you understand ?) 😡
Here you can see that Troels talks about many brands of capacitors, do you claim that he has commercial interests with all of them ?
super-caps
Troels is a person who likes to transmit his knowledge in an entertaining way, and he really knows a lot about speakers , which does not mean that he often accepts suggestions.
" Comments are welcome if you have corrections to my findings or additional valuable information to better understand this interesting topic."
Something that many of us here value.
Why don't you write to him? Perhaps you could pass on some of your wisdom.
Forget the question of the D / TQWT audition in any of its variants.
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you can bi-amp LX521.2 with a fully passive XOver for the top 3-way but the EQ will still be needed by design.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/339882-crossover-linkwitz-lx521-7.html#post6178715
here is my pair driven by the Acoustic Research D150 tube amp: (though the amp is still giving me some trouble as you can see in my thread on the tube forum):
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Any normal well-designed AB-amp will deliver some power in class A. Those designs all need some quiescent current to not distort the signal swing at the 0V transition.
Dependent on the cooling capacities of the power stage and the size of the power supply, this current can be increased and that will bring more class A. For what it's worth 😉
I've never really grasped what kind of sound quality might be associated with class A, just aware that it's an objective for some - it's of interest to me but I'm off my own topic here.
Troels was very forthcoming and helpful when I contacted him last night, given that we know he doesn't like to get too involved in people's 'choices'. He linked me to a diagram of his 25m2 listening room and his speakers are invariably at 90cm from the wall behind them - so 5cm difference from my own maximum position. On the much loved DTQWT, he quite emphatically warned me off, on the grounds that its balance of strengths and weaknesses derive from its valve oriented design and thus not optimum for my SS amp. He did suggest that, typically, it isn't going to suffer by being 35/40cm from the wall - one of the reasons it was on my shortlist.
As with Markbakk and PeteMcK at the start of this thread, Troels suggested that the Ekta is more likely to be affected negatively by room gain, than the DTQWT and the Faital 3WC. Thus the Faital 3wc looks like the best compromise
There was some enthusiasm for the Faital 3WC and even more for the Faital 15 "if you listened to the Faital next to the Ekta, I know which one you'd choose" (with the all important caveat, of course, that we're talking in the context of my particular requirements). When I mentioned imaging he didn't agree that the Ekta might have the edge on the Faital 3WC and cited the excellent dispersal characteristics of its mid. The Faital 15, with its wider girth, will definitely not qualify for WAF certification.
He didn't take the bait when I mentioned Ekta Grande. He commented, justifiably imo, on the "apples and pears" nature of my shortlist. I fear the selection of the two bigger speakers may have given him the impression that I need speakers that can go louder than the Ekta. There's also the fact that bigger speakers have been the TG direction for some time now. Do I need "louder" to have a great mid range underpinned with a reasonably solid, or palpable and articulate base? I suppose so, but the question feels like a rabbit hole.
Troels was very forthcoming and helpful when I contacted him last night, given that we know he doesn't like to get too involved in people's 'choices'. He linked me to a diagram of his 25m2 listening room and his speakers are invariably at 90cm from the wall behind them - so 5cm difference from my own maximum position. On the much loved DTQWT, he quite emphatically warned me off, on the grounds that its balance of strengths and weaknesses derive from its valve oriented design and thus not optimum for my SS amp. He did suggest that, typically, it isn't going to suffer by being 35/40cm from the wall - one of the reasons it was on my shortlist.
As with Markbakk and PeteMcK at the start of this thread, Troels suggested that the Ekta is more likely to be affected negatively by room gain, than the DTQWT and the Faital 3WC. Thus the Faital 3wc looks like the best compromise
There was some enthusiasm for the Faital 3WC and even more for the Faital 15 "if you listened to the Faital next to the Ekta, I know which one you'd choose" (with the all important caveat, of course, that we're talking in the context of my particular requirements). When I mentioned imaging he didn't agree that the Ekta might have the edge on the Faital 3WC and cited the excellent dispersal characteristics of its mid. The Faital 15, with its wider girth, will definitely not qualify for WAF certification.
He didn't take the bait when I mentioned Ekta Grande. He commented, justifiably imo, on the "apples and pears" nature of my shortlist. I fear the selection of the two bigger speakers may have given him the impression that I need speakers that can go louder than the Ekta. There's also the fact that bigger speakers have been the TG direction for some time now. Do I need "louder" to have a great mid range underpinned with a reasonably solid, or palpable and articulate base? I suppose so, but the question feels like a rabbit hole.
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I should add that, within reason, I'm happy to pay extra for a 'closed' Jantzen components package (at least there are levels and choices), simply because I don't have the wherewithal to select my own.
I have owned the dtqwt-ii for 8 years with two different levels of capacitors for the tweeters - silver and supreme. They are placed 40 cm from the front wall. Compared to several friends speakers who are placed close to the wall - and need to be moved out in the room for serious listening - i really dont find much gain with moving the dtqwt away from the front wall .... You may find speakers that go deeper bit I really like the dynamic and effortless bass Of these speakers, and the midrange makes the acoustical jazz and blues I mostly play sound very live-like. So no problems recommending the dtqwt design... And yes, bad compressed recordings sounds like bad compressed recordings on these speakers....