The "Dutch K12"
- wonder when it appeared and who designed it? With its very large vent, would system resonance still be somewhere in the 60-70Hz range ?
It was always reported to work well at prodigious spl with very little cone motion. It eliminated the upper "reflector" panel and had a fully vertical vent panel (going against Karlson's assertions in "Acoustic Transducers" #2)
exterior bulk is about 3.2 cubic feet, so similar to the original Karlson Twelve which was introduced in the fall of 1954. (K15 was introduced in the fall of 1952)
do any readers have lore or experience with this cabinet ?
Here's its plan
http://i.imgur.com/loLonOY.jpg
its quite like Fig.2 of Karlson's final Acoustic Transducers patent
http://i.imgur.com/BA7jLCj.gif
Dutch K12 vent - those white damping pads almost look like the old Kimberly-Clark paper based
insulation "Kimsul" which was popular in 1950's-60's speaker cabinets - maybe those are foam (?)
- wonder when it appeared and who designed it? With its very large vent, would system resonance still be somewhere in the 60-70Hz range ?
It was always reported to work well at prodigious spl with very little cone motion. It eliminated the upper "reflector" panel and had a fully vertical vent panel (going against Karlson's assertions in "Acoustic Transducers" #2)
exterior bulk is about 3.2 cubic feet, so similar to the original Karlson Twelve which was introduced in the fall of 1954. (K15 was introduced in the fall of 1952)
do any readers have lore or experience with this cabinet ?
Here's its plan
http://i.imgur.com/loLonOY.jpg
its quite like Fig.2 of Karlson's final Acoustic Transducers patent
http://i.imgur.com/BA7jLCj.gif
Dutch K12 vent - those white damping pads almost look like the old Kimberly-Clark paper based
insulation "Kimsul" which was popular in 1950's-60's speaker cabinets - maybe those are foam (?)
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I think the Dutch would work fine without the angled upper section. The lower one is already angled sonredu es parallel wall resonances. There is still side to side modes that none of these designs address. A trapezoidal K would be even better.
how much splay on the sidewalls ? - could there be a way to lessen that effect in existing regular boxy K's ? do you think the Dutch K12's tuning is in the same range as originals despite its large internal vents ?
Here's the "Dutch Karlson" pdf translated to English by member AmadeusMozart
https://www.docdroid.net/uANVmFh/dutchkarlson.pdf.html
there's a table of suggested outer dimensions for 15/12 and 8 sizes - I'm not sure what the vent horizontal/vertical references mean
https://www.docdroid.net/uANVmFh/dutchkarlson.pdf.html
there's a table of suggested outer dimensions for 15/12 and 8 sizes - I'm not sure what the vent horizontal/vertical references mean
X- - the internal width of the Karlson Twelve is ~15.25" - here's two K12, one a Karlsonette loaded with PYM1298 with a different (perhaps not better) port hacked in its port board, and a six slit type K12 with B&C 12pe32
explain the dips vs dimensions - what might one do to get things a bit smoother? btw, the other trace is a Large Advent - that's a pretty good difference in sensitivity between the little K and the Advent. I like the old old pym1298 so a Kappa12a should sound just about the same. That particular Karlsonette copy has a tight rear lowpass gap - perhaps that in conjunction with the port is causing that dip right above 200 ? That funky old cabinet/pym1298 and a K-tube on top sounds pretty dynamic and can deliver dynamics when power is applied.
If I go with the regular "3rd K12" - what kind of port would you suggest and if a single port, where is its best place on the upper board? this stuff seems hard to predict.
What I call the "3rd K12" is a 1960's model with 30 degree baffle, 10 degree port panel like the 1956 6 slit model, and return to a full width rear lowpass shelf. It apparently was sold in kit form with a blank port panel and instructions on how many holes to drill for different speakers. The 2 I've seen seemed to be factory drilled and I think those are 3/4" holes - would you agree ?
someone had added a Phillips tweeter in the cabinet below. I've heard in later days, John Karlson made cabinets on his radial arm saw. In the heyday the late Wayne Green said there were seven "factories" producing Karlson cabinets.
Image from the brochure which came with the un-ported 12K kit
its interesting that Karlson placed Kimsul damping pads on the sidewalls but not top and bottom, nor on either
side of the rear shelf- - why do you think that was done ?
rare - un-ported 12K
explain the dips vs dimensions - what might one do to get things a bit smoother? btw, the other trace is a Large Advent - that's a pretty good difference in sensitivity between the little K and the Advent. I like the old old pym1298 so a Kappa12a should sound just about the same. That particular Karlsonette copy has a tight rear lowpass gap - perhaps that in conjunction with the port is causing that dip right above 200 ? That funky old cabinet/pym1298 and a K-tube on top sounds pretty dynamic and can deliver dynamics when power is applied.
If I go with the regular "3rd K12" - what kind of port would you suggest and if a single port, where is its best place on the upper board? this stuff seems hard to predict.
What I call the "3rd K12" is a 1960's model with 30 degree baffle, 10 degree port panel like the 1956 6 slit model, and return to a full width rear lowpass shelf. It apparently was sold in kit form with a blank port panel and instructions on how many holes to drill for different speakers. The 2 I've seen seemed to be factory drilled and I think those are 3/4" holes - would you agree ?
someone had added a Phillips tweeter in the cabinet below. I've heard in later days, John Karlson made cabinets on his radial arm saw. In the heyday the late Wayne Green said there were seven "factories" producing Karlson cabinets.
Image from the brochure which came with the un-ported 12K kit
its interesting that Karlson placed Kimsul damping pads on the sidewalls but not top and bottom, nor on either
side of the rear shelf- - why do you think that was done ?
rare - un-ported 12K
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I was wrong about the damping pad under the lowpass shelf - it was used - here's the other cabinet of that pair
hey X - - would you have a K alignment for my B102 pair ?
seems like I once ran one in a slit vent K12 (?)
the new 10850 Eminence has similar mms, and a 3 inch coil - that might make a nice new K10 as may B&C's 10fw64.
I could put those B102 back in the fake Drud pipe where they were good performers but been there and always wanting to try "one more K".
Def_Driver 'Eminence B102- old model with larger magnet' |Notes: 200 watts, 3mm Xmax - multi-pleat suspension, (Vas)=73.5 liters 2.59 cu. ft. )
Sd=344.9cm2
fs = 45
Mms=28g
Qms=7.07
Qes=0.24
Re=5.66
BL=13.8Tm
Le=0.67mH
seems like I once ran one in a slit vent K12 (?)
the new 10850 Eminence has similar mms, and a 3 inch coil - that might make a nice new K10 as may B&C's 10fw64.
I could put those B102 back in the fake Drud pipe where they were good performers but been there and always wanting to try "one more K".
Def_Driver 'Eminence B102- old model with larger magnet' |Notes: 200 watts, 3mm Xmax - multi-pleat suspension, (Vas)=73.5 liters 2.59 cu. ft. )
Sd=344.9cm2
fs = 45
Mms=28g
Qms=7.07
Qes=0.24
Re=5.66
BL=13.8Tm
Le=0.67mH
besides some little K's for my vintage Eminence B102 (specs "above"), I think its interesting how the little scaled K15 fared vs the Karlsonator 12 when both were loaded with Eminence's current spec Beta10cx (there used to be a lower qts Beta10cx with pleated accordion surround)
the little cabinet is stronger in the "hit" octave by a good margin - its so hot there that it probably would sound balance free standing on tripod outdoors
there's something about the room and place where I measured the two that made the Karlsonator12/Beta10cx seem to roll off higher than in another room where it reached to about Fb (37Hz) before drop off.
I would expect the little K when loaded with something like Eminence's Delta10a to balance decently with a standard K-tube and compression driver.
It might even work with my Nirvana Super 10 (?) Super10 played nicely in the Karlsonator12.
The real world Karlsonator12 as drawn by its maker, GregB, seems to tune around 37Hz - if its real output in the 100-200Hz octave is close to 95dB then the tiny Karlson "10" must be close to 100dB (?)
Beta12LTA graphed better than Beta10cx in the Karlsonator12 cabinet. I would expect the Karlsonator8 cabinet to be a real winner
with some 8 inch fullrange and woofers where a 40Hz tuning is appropriate.
Beta12LTA in Karlsonator12 - mic on stand vs mic on floor - note where's there's a dip in the 700-800Hz region with the mic on stand, its strong there at the floor boundary
the little cabinet is stronger in the "hit" octave by a good margin - its so hot there that it probably would sound balance free standing on tripod outdoors
there's something about the room and place where I measured the two that made the Karlsonator12/Beta10cx seem to roll off higher than in another room where it reached to about Fb (37Hz) before drop off.
I would expect the little K when loaded with something like Eminence's Delta10a to balance decently with a standard K-tube and compression driver.
It might even work with my Nirvana Super 10 (?) Super10 played nicely in the Karlsonator12.
The real world Karlsonator12 as drawn by its maker, GregB, seems to tune around 37Hz - if its real output in the 100-200Hz octave is close to 95dB then the tiny Karlson "10" must be close to 100dB (?)
Beta12LTA graphed better than Beta10cx in the Karlsonator12 cabinet. I would expect the Karlsonator8 cabinet to be a real winner
with some 8 inch fullrange and woofers where a 40Hz tuning is appropriate.
Beta12LTA in Karlsonator12 - mic on stand vs mic on floor - note where's there's a dip in the 700-800Hz region with the mic on stand, its strong there at the floor boundary
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I think scaling HAK6.5 by ~1.17 would pretty much get the result like Carl's HAK8/10 testbox and would be in the ballpark with the Karlsonator8 size for bulk and external aspect.
where might it tune? is "over the reflector" the best place for the port ?
I'd like to have a "K10" for vintage Eminence B102 drivers. I think something like a height of 23-25" would be alright and overall external bulk of 2.75 cubic feet to keep it smaller than a Karlson 12.
here's HAK6.5's plan courtesy of GregB - would the scaled result be about right for a HAK8 and several popular 8" FR? The long curved reflector would provide a front cavity depth of about 5.5" at the maximum point.
http://i.imgur.com/YR0DM8f.png
where might it tune? is "over the reflector" the best place for the port ?
I'd like to have a "K10" for vintage Eminence B102 drivers. I think something like a height of 23-25" would be alright and overall external bulk of 2.75 cubic feet to keep it smaller than a Karlson 12.
here's HAK6.5's plan courtesy of GregB - would the scaled result be about right for a HAK8 and several popular 8" FR? The long curved reflector would provide a front cavity depth of about 5.5" at the maximum point.
http://i.imgur.com/YR0DM8f.png
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X15 ULTRA-FIDELITY in the NEW "Perfect!" size
ULTRA-FIDELITY in the NEW "Perfect!" size ... (1965 - 14 years after K15) and approximately one cubic foot larger in bulk than the Karlson 12.
When a subwoofer is used for the lower octaves, X15 could make a lot of sense vs any direct radiator or midbass horn.
IME, a typical X15 would have about the same low end as the K12 but need roughly half the excursion of a 12 for a given output. (A K12 is pretty good for output)
In the early 1980's, about a decade after Karlson's death, its form factor re-appeared with Transylvania Power Company, KK-Audio, Acoustic Control, Westwood and another company making a little 15" driver K-coupler. Those did not make room for an internal K=-tube tweeter.
Karlson used five de-Q-ing holes on my example of the X15. Another set had 7 hole and a smaller diameter K-tube. The woofer in that day was a square 54oz magnet 15 with doped paper surround by CTS with Fs ~41 and low Qts.
CarlN's first interpretation of the X15 with custom K-tube based on an original X15's K-tube - Carl didn't have access to the inner dimensions so came up with this based upon outer dims - - later it was built again with a fully curved reflector and reported subjective improvement.
There's an adjustable rear lowpass shelf, and the ports were adjustable for data gathering. I think he used at least 3 sets of tapered panels in testing. Karlson's original used a taper that opened a bit faster than a radial arc.
A near copy of Karlson's X15 in my pile of stuff (woofer cutout 7/8" too high = mistake)
ULTRA-FIDELITY in the NEW "Perfect!" size ... (1965 - 14 years after K15) and approximately one cubic foot larger in bulk than the Karlson 12.
When a subwoofer is used for the lower octaves, X15 could make a lot of sense vs any direct radiator or midbass horn.
IME, a typical X15 would have about the same low end as the K12 but need roughly half the excursion of a 12 for a given output. (A K12 is pretty good for output)
In the early 1980's, about a decade after Karlson's death, its form factor re-appeared with Transylvania Power Company, KK-Audio, Acoustic Control, Westwood and another company making a little 15" driver K-coupler. Those did not make room for an internal K=-tube tweeter.
Karlson used five de-Q-ing holes on my example of the X15. Another set had 7 hole and a smaller diameter K-tube. The woofer in that day was a square 54oz magnet 15 with doped paper surround by CTS with Fs ~41 and low Qts.
CarlN's first interpretation of the X15 with custom K-tube based on an original X15's K-tube - Carl didn't have access to the inner dimensions so came up with this based upon outer dims - - later it was built again with a fully curved reflector and reported subjective improvement.
There's an adjustable rear lowpass shelf, and the ports were adjustable for data gathering. I think he used at least 3 sets of tapered panels in testing. Karlson's original used a taper that opened a bit faster than a radial arc.
A near copy of Karlson's X15 in my pile of stuff (woofer cutout 7/8" too high = mistake)
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here's a Youtube video of a pair of "K12" with Altec coax (tweeter horn not hooked up) and University H600 midhorn and either EV T35 or Klipsch K77 equivalent running off a Klipsch network. That's a nice way to get attenuation with the autoformer rather than resistive pad
thnose K12 might not be Karlson but perhaps nice specimens of the "Pioneer K12" which has popped up over the years. If so they may have a 7-slit distributed port.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQcFC0l0n2I
thnose K12 might not be Karlson but perhaps nice specimens of the "Pioneer K12" which has popped up over the years. If so they may have a 7-slit distributed port.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQcFC0l0n2I
that little Russian "Karlsonator" on Twitter seems to indicate its main speaker is 4" The K-tube guided helper tweeter makes it a real "flooder" system. Someone had considerable skill to cut those tubes so precisely - wonder if the tweeter is a small cone - ? - dome - ?
Russian "Karlsonator 4"
K-tube tweeter
Russian "Karlsonator 4"
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
K-tube tweeter
Looks like a cone. A dome would be too small in that and suffer cancellation of side wall reflections.
I'm going to try to get an old spec (Qts ~0.23) Eminence B102 mounted in a rough/old 7-slit "Pioneer K12" box and will run it fullrange. Where should one roll in the K-tube tweeter? - should it come in "low" where the wideband 10's power response is dropping fast? - or should it roll in high when the on to slightly off -axis response is dropping? or does it even matter as about anything goes in fullrangedriverland ? 😀
btw - I think K12's rear chamber might be a bit large for B102 - not sure about the front chamber's effect when reduced.
An aesthetically pleasing high aspect Karlson for the old B102 might be fun - - - - any suggestions X ??? - I don't want to lose much "hit". For example, W8-1772 in a 28" tall K-coupler with nearly the same volume as Karlson's K12 had 2-5dB less output in the 110-220Hz octave than the same driver in the 1954 K12. Maybe a new K10 could be around 24" tall but slimmer in width than the K12 which is 16.75". It could also sport the option of an internal K-tube tweeter with inexpensive compression driver such as BMD440, PRV280, etc. Perhaps Fb ~60 for good punch (?)
btw - I think K12's rear chamber might be a bit large for B102 - not sure about the front chamber's effect when reduced.
An aesthetically pleasing high aspect Karlson for the old B102 might be fun - - - - any suggestions X ??? - I don't want to lose much "hit". For example, W8-1772 in a 28" tall K-coupler with nearly the same volume as Karlson's K12 had 2-5dB less output in the 110-220Hz octave than the same driver in the 1954 K12. Maybe a new K10 could be around 24" tall but slimmer in width than the K12 which is 16.75". It could also sport the option of an internal K-tube tweeter with inexpensive compression driver such as BMD440, PRV280, etc. Perhaps Fb ~60 for good punch (?)
running the old spec B102 in a "Pioneer K12", and topped with a K-tube helper tweeter (its coming in low as all I had was 3.3uF + maybe 0.25mH), the result is impressive - drumkits sound nearly real. One of these days some of you will catch up and use a K-tube 😀
the wideband by itself is by no means bright with no EQ. Tbe cabinet is ~18" off the floor, K-tube might be a bit hot as all I had for attenuation was a 3R resistor "before" the 3.3uF cap. There seems to be very good dynamic range and plenty loud with 1/8" peak to peak cone travel. (its fed from a 250 watt Crown amp)
funny thing, years ago I based a "K10" for B102 on a Karlsonette with rear chamber reduced by books and bricks thinking a K12 was a smidgen too large.
the new B102 may work in a little Karlson - it should be good for the telephone band as a direct radiator.
the old B102 had a 2" diameter voice coil, 56oz magnet, and qts around 0.24. I think Zu used both magnet
weights in their variants of B102 which makes me wonder if sensitivity and voicing was somewhat different between
their Druid models.
old vs new spec B102 indoors - each mounted in the same pipe
the wideband by itself is by no means bright with no EQ. Tbe cabinet is ~18" off the floor, K-tube might be a bit hot as all I had for attenuation was a 3R resistor "before" the 3.3uF cap. There seems to be very good dynamic range and plenty loud with 1/8" peak to peak cone travel. (its fed from a 250 watt Crown amp)
funny thing, years ago I based a "K10" for B102 on a Karlsonette with rear chamber reduced by books and bricks thinking a K12 was a smidgen too large.
the new B102 may work in a little Karlson - it should be good for the telephone band as a direct radiator.
the old B102 had a 2" diameter voice coil, 56oz magnet, and qts around 0.24. I think Zu used both magnet
weights in their variants of B102 which makes me wonder if sensitivity and voicing was somewhat different between
their Druid models.
old vs new spec B102 indoors - each mounted in the same pipe
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Love my Fellow Karlson makers in Russia
- where else does one get to see a 3-way K with K-slot loaded ribbon tweeter ?
the Mighty Karlson Army marches on
Boxlab - ??????? ??? ???????? KARLSON
?????????? ? ????????. - ???????? 9 - ????? - Tornado Acoustics
http://img.stereo.ru/images/StereoVideoMagazine/1460700792-a2o.jpg
Here's that 3-way at a High End show
http://stereo.ru/to/j8thv-redaktsionnye-sovety-gde-deystvitelno-stoit-pobyvat-na-vystavke-hi-fi
reminds me a bit of "Beulah"
- where else does one get to see a 3-way K with K-slot loaded ribbon tweeter ?
the Mighty Karlson Army marches on
Boxlab - ??????? ??? ???????? KARLSON
?????????? ? ????????. - ???????? 9 - ????? - Tornado Acoustics
http://img.stereo.ru/images/StereoVideoMagazine/1460700792-a2o.jpg
Here's that 3-way at a High End show
http://stereo.ru/to/j8thv-redaktsionnye-sovety-gde-deystvitelno-stoit-pobyvat-na-vystavke-hi-fi
reminds me a bit of "Beulah"
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its interesting that the creator of the Karlson TQWP hybrid below, independantly
came pretty close to GregB's Karlsonator
http://audioportal.hi-fi.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=8832&d=1190801794
came pretty close to GregB's Karlsonator
http://audioportal.hi-fi.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=8832&d=1190801794
Karlson with Magnat drivers
go to the third column from the left and there's "Karlson ....."
https://translate.google.com/transl...n&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.magnat.tv/&edit-text=
the cabinets appear to the the "Dutch K12" ??? and a version of that scaled to "K - 9/10" (?)
zooming inwards
go to the third column from the left and there's "Karlson ....."
https://translate.google.com/transl...n&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.magnat.tv/&edit-text=
the cabinets appear to the the "Dutch K12" ??? and a version of that scaled to "K - 9/10" (?)
zooming inwards
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