Seen where German forum tested 250tc qtc at .8
Think the newer b102 (except for not as much past 2khz) sounds better ?
M roll surround may be an improvement for smaller details.
Cone seems different.
Read b102 can be cleaner sounding as bass speakers cones in general are stiffer than guitar speakers.
Think the newer b102 (except for not as much past 2khz) sounds better ?
M roll surround may be an improvement for smaller details.
Cone seems different.
Read b102 can be cleaner sounding as bass speakers cones in general are stiffer than guitar speakers.
IIRC (???) Beta10cx's cone and double roll suspension looks much like the one used on B102 - not sure about their spiders (?)
I think in a K, B102 will work ok as a midbass with 1 cubic foot volume.
the new model may sound better - its difficult to tell without
it does not seem Beta10cx is as hot as this graph below (?) where did it get the extra dB? - its about like a BG20
Beta10CX curve from the "Osprey" project
B102
Beta10cx woofer alone vs BG20 in a Karlson 12 type - as far as LF is concerned with a distributed vent K12, Beta10cx is the same speaker as BG20
(and probably the "newer" B102) - now much motor does Zu put on their version of B102 ???
I think in a K, B102 will work ok as a midbass with 1 cubic foot volume.
the new model may sound better - its difficult to tell without
it does not seem Beta10cx is as hot as this graph below (?) where did it get the extra dB? - its about like a BG20
Beta10CX curve from the "Osprey" project
B102
Beta10cx woofer alone vs BG20 in a Karlson 12 type - as far as LF is concerned with a distributed vent K12, Beta10cx is the same speaker as BG20
(and probably the "newer" B102) - now much motor does Zu put on their version of B102 ???
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Good question.
I assume zu uses the stronger magnet, but I don't know where they pole in the tweet.
And I think their b102 is a far cry from a stock b102.
I'm unsure about tekton'so 40 or 60oz magnet.
I've seen speaker shots and it is an off the shelf b102.
Except for the uruz model (b102 run wide open with single capped ribbon), the tekton lore uses 12db slopes.
I can get back to you on notch for 2800hz.
It probably rings so it will help but not cure, at least it isn'the higher than the driver's output.
As the charts you've shown, b102 needs the 60oz magnet to get real high, but then you got no bass.
I assume zu uses the stronger magnet, but I don't know where they pole in the tweet.
And I think their b102 is a far cry from a stock b102.
I'm unsure about tekton'so 40 or 60oz magnet.
I've seen speaker shots and it is an off the shelf b102.
Except for the uruz model (b102 run wide open with single capped ribbon), the tekton lore uses 12db slopes.
I can get back to you on notch for 2800hz.
It probably rings so it will help but not cure, at least it isn'the higher than the driver's output.
As the charts you've shown, b102 needs the 60oz magnet to get real high, but then you got no bass.
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you may gain more mids than lose bass -? 😀 - wonder what Zu uses for their secret sauce cone treatment and how much that contributes to sound quality? what mix does Bastanis use? Morris Audio?
although a 59/60 ounce slug in some models, they seem to indicate their motor is different than Eminence's and Eminence does the charge
also during the changes, weight dropped by .35kg - that would tell me they went to the smaller (current B102) magnet at times (?) I would think qts would rise as it did with Eminence's B102.
Tell me more about Zu's 10" full-range driver. | Zu Audio
although a 59/60 ounce slug in some models, they seem to indicate their motor is different than Eminence's and Eminence does the charge
also during the changes, weight dropped by .35kg - that would tell me they went to the smaller (current B102) magnet at times (?) I would think qts would rise as it did with Eminence's B102.
Tell me more about Zu's 10" full-range driver. | Zu Audio
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eh, doesn't help me any (what zu does).
I'm just glad to have came across a driver (not quite full range) that I can use run wide open to a single capped morel cat378. I've wanted to make something with it. like this but with the morel tweet, not a ribbon..................
Ideally b102 calls for 2.3ft3 ported tuned to 50hz in 1 : 1.616 ratios, or maybe half that sealed.
Maybe I need to build the 2.3ft3 but not be surprised if I prefer to plug the hole.
Most times the mids sound better with the port plugged, preventing all the box midrange from bouncing around inside the box then squirting out the port.
I'm just glad to have came across a driver (not quite full range) that I can use run wide open to a single capped morel cat378. I've wanted to make something with it. like this but with the morel tweet, not a ribbon..................
Ideally b102 calls for 2.3ft3 ported tuned to 50hz in 1 : 1.616 ratios, or maybe half that sealed.
Maybe I need to build the 2.3ft3 but not be surprised if I prefer to plug the hole.
Most times the mids sound better with the port plugged, preventing all the box midrange from bouncing around inside the box then squirting out the port.
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FWIW you could build it as a traditional DBR with 2:1 chamber ratios and 3 ~ equal vents - I can't get out to get plywood and have no good place to cut (other than outdoors with a circular saw) - this should be a good/cost effective project with adequate output and nice dispersion. Where is approximate LF rolloff in a one cubic foot sealed box ? - that's probably the way its used in a lot of bass guitar rigs. btw- I got tempted by $80.43 for an EM LA10850 shipped but when went back yesterday, saw they corrected it to $119.95 ....
its nice to know cat378 can be rebuilt for a reasonable price http://www.ebay.com/itm/Morel-R-37-...700143?hash=item3397a7f9af:g:oTUAAOSwY45UTlzR
you might battery bias the highpass - do you have favorite caps? - or is that synergy/system dependent ?
its nice to know cat378 can be rebuilt for a reasonable price http://www.ebay.com/itm/Morel-R-37-...700143?hash=item3397a7f9af:g:oTUAAOSwY45UTlzR
you might battery bias the highpass - do you have favorite caps? - or is that synergy/system dependent ?
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eh, doesn't help me any (what zu does).
I'm just glad to have came across a driver (not quite full range) that I can use run wide open to a single capped morel cat378. I've wanted to make something with it. like this but with the morel tweet, not a ribbon..................
Ideally b102 calls for 2.3ft3 ported tuned to 50hz in 1 : 1.616 ratios, or maybe half that sealed.
Maybe I need to build the 2.3ft3 but not be surprised if I prefer to plug the hole.
Most times the mids sound better with the port plugged, preventing all the box midrange from bouncing around inside the box then squirting out the port.
A Heil AMT here on top would be perfect. 🙂
If cabinet interior is well lined and some fiberglass inside with port rear facing and offset from back of driver, mids leakage is usually not an issue.
regarding battery bias/"charged coupled" crossover networks, its used to improve low level detail by removing a masking effect
- its often used with film caps - I just wired up some MBGO caps battery biased for a Klipsch Type "A" style network (13uF/2uF - made up of two 24uF MBGO metallized paper in oil caps in series for the 13uF, and two 4uF MBGO caps in series for the 2uF position. Bias is applied with one 9v battery at their center junctions via 1Meg resistors. Klipsch "Heritage" networks shared two major components whether the Klipschorn, Belle, Cornwall or Heresy. A 2.5mH transformer core inductor, and similar sized multi-tap autoformer used as attenuator.
The continuing saga of the charge coupled network
note from DJK - - Audio Asylum High Efficiency Forum post
Posted by djk (M) on January 20, 2010 at 14:02:14
In Reply to: RE: Incorrect... posted by freddyi on January 20, 2010 at 12:06:19:
Idealy the bias voltage would be in excess of what the total signl is, but that is not really practical.
It is enough to shift the zero-crossing point away from 0 in the music. What we are trying do do is keep the discharge of the charge stored in the dielectric fron discharging where there should be silence in the music (nothing to cover up the noise).
- its often used with film caps - I just wired up some MBGO caps battery biased for a Klipsch Type "A" style network (13uF/2uF - made up of two 24uF MBGO metallized paper in oil caps in series for the 13uF, and two 4uF MBGO caps in series for the 2uF position. Bias is applied with one 9v battery at their center junctions via 1Meg resistors. Klipsch "Heritage" networks shared two major components whether the Klipschorn, Belle, Cornwall or Heresy. A 2.5mH transformer core inductor, and similar sized multi-tap autoformer used as attenuator.
The continuing saga of the charge coupled network
note from DJK - - Audio Asylum High Efficiency Forum post
Posted by djk (M) on January 20, 2010 at 14:02:14
In Reply to: RE: Incorrect... posted by freddyi on January 20, 2010 at 12:06:19:
Idealy the bias voltage would be in excess of what the total signl is, but that is not really practical.
It is enough to shift the zero-crossing point away from 0 in the music. What we are trying do do is keep the discharge of the charge stored in the dielectric fron discharging where there should be silence in the music (nothing to cover up the noise).
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B102 in 1 ft3 might be sealed F3 around 90hz.
I'm pretty sure you'd hear funny phase wraps with a dbr, even though it would limit excursion well.
Lol, a heil would be pricy for me.
I'll keep it in mid (stuffing + rear port).
Most cheaper tweets have a tall peak at resonance and close to the crossover point.
For a 6db cap tweet ideally low Fs, and low Zpeak at Fs.
I'd like to see a baffle step woofer, but 2 drivers in 4ft3 1:1.618 ratios would make for a pole in a box 13" wide, needing maybe 7mH on the baffle step woof?
But a simple 1 driver no baffle step 1:1.618 ratios would be 27" tall x 17" wide x 11" deep for a qtc sealed around .577 (and makes it high enough for the tweet near ear level seated).
I figure a notch 2,769hz to be 10uF + .33mH (18g jantzen maybe $6 at parts express) + maybe 4ohms.
Thanks for posting the morel response.
I think this is an option because it should have better dispersion, distortion, and detail than a 12" full range, or most anything with a whizzer (sorry, just my opinion).
Norman
I'm pretty sure you'd hear funny phase wraps with a dbr, even though it would limit excursion well.
Lol, a heil would be pricy for me.
I'll keep it in mid (stuffing + rear port).
Most cheaper tweets have a tall peak at resonance and close to the crossover point.
For a 6db cap tweet ideally low Fs, and low Zpeak at Fs.
I'd like to see a baffle step woofer, but 2 drivers in 4ft3 1:1.618 ratios would make for a pole in a box 13" wide, needing maybe 7mH on the baffle step woof?
But a simple 1 driver no baffle step 1:1.618 ratios would be 27" tall x 17" wide x 11" deep for a qtc sealed around .577 (and makes it high enough for the tweet near ear level seated).
I figure a notch 2,769hz to be 10uF + .33mH (18g jantzen maybe $6 at parts express) + maybe 4ohms.
Thanks for posting the morel response.
I think this is an option because it should have better dispersion, distortion, and detail than a 12" full range, or most anything with a whizzer (sorry, just my opinion).
Norman
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I wonder if Eminence has their 2K5cx crossover wired so "normal polarity" actually reverses the tweeter phase?
I used their values and this is the way that looked with an ASD1001 - dead-on axis
I used their values and this is the way that looked with an ASD1001 - dead-on axis
a 3 piece high dynamic range Karlson system would be reasonably compact - typically a bit less than 2 cubic feet external bulk for the mains using 10" speakers - a compact sub would fill in most of the essential bass, MCM's dual voice coil 12" speaker used by the late Marshall Leach in a sub/sat project, gave good results in a stock K12 with its vents blocked. What else might be done for a compact sub yet keep it in the K-family?
Here's an interesting comparison with Beta10cx in TWO different types of Karlson alignments
a very small (~!.8 cubic foot) cabinet directly scaled from K15 by around 0.62 vs a much larger ~5.33 cubic foot) "Karlsonator 12" - the first hole in the response is partly a path difference effect and is pretty much gone if the mic is on the floor. The spot where I put the cabinets sure wasn't a good one but the only area available.
look at the little cabinet's "hit region" - it can clobber on drums and the cone barely moves. The cone barely moves on the Karlsonator also.
Karlson knew something about getting punch in small cabinets.
a very small (~!.8 cubic foot) cabinet directly scaled from K15 by around 0.62 vs a much larger ~5.33 cubic foot) "Karlsonator 12" - the first hole in the response is partly a path difference effect and is pretty much gone if the mic is on the floor. The spot where I put the cabinets sure wasn't a good one but the only area available.
look at the little cabinet's "hit region" - it can clobber on drums and the cone barely moves. The cone barely moves on the Karlsonator also.
Karlson knew something about getting punch in small cabinets.
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Freddi,
This is similar to my experience with a 0.46x scaled K15 and an 8in B&C coaxial. The impact down to 100Hz was very good. Couple with a sub and you have a potent yet compact system. The sims showed excellent cone control. In fact, one of the few boxes that allows a perfect match of thermal max and Xmax at the same spot. Usually you run out of Xmax first.
a question - what subwoofer might be made that's compact, powerful and goes "low enough" to subjectively work well with most music and movies to augment little Karlson satellites ? Do the XKi alignments in general give up some "hit" in favor of extended LF vs scaled K15?
Karlsonator12 as built per GregB's plan, has tuning around 38Hz - imagine that's about an octave lower than the little 0.62 scale K15- It might be good if one could tune Karlsonator12 a bit higher for certain drivers. I'll try to get the other Karlsonator12 with 12lta back together and see/hear how it fares.
would 0.46 or so K15 work well with Beta8cx? - or is one better off with the XKi alignment? - i really like the idea of little K supplemented by a woofer/subwoofer for a compact high output system.
DeltaPro8a in a K about the same size as the 0.62 cabinet has good impact and is topped with a polymide Dayton horn driver on Transylvania Power Company's classic K-tube "THE TUBE"
Karlsonator12 as built per GregB's plan, has tuning around 38Hz - imagine that's about an octave lower than the little 0.62 scale K15- It might be good if one could tune Karlsonator12 a bit higher for certain drivers. I'll try to get the other Karlsonator12 with 12lta back together and see/hear how it fares.
would 0.46 or so K15 work well with Beta8cx? - or is one better off with the XKi alignment? - i really like the idea of little K supplemented by a woofer/subwoofer for a compact high output system.
DeltaPro8a in a K about the same size as the 0.62 cabinet has good impact and is topped with a polymide Dayton horn driver on Transylvania Power Company's classic K-tube "THE TUBE"
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I would go with dual driver and dual port XKi as that gives 6th order bandpass for max efficiency, reach, and has a K aperture. I made one with dual 5.25in driver and it worked quite well. Imagine one with dual 12in drivers!
would the PA310 be suitable? they're on sale for $59 each - are there better choices at $60 and under for each driver? http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa310-8-12-pro-woofer--295-032
if nothing else, a dual PA310 XKi might make a cool bass guitar module
Nominal Diameter12"Power Handling (RMS)450 Watts
Power Handling (max)900 WattsImpedance8 ohms
Frequency Response44 to 4,000 Hz
Sensitivity96.1 dB 2.83V/1m
Voice Coil Diameter3"
Magnet Weight80 oz.
Resonant Frequency (Fs)39 Hz
DC Resistance (Re)5.5 ohms
Voice Coil Inductance (Le)1.68 mH
Mechanical Q (Qms)8.85
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)0.30 Total Q (Qts)0.29
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)3.24 ft.³
Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms).23 mm/N
BL Product (BL)18 Tm
Diaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (Mms)72.8g
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)5 mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)530.9 cm²
if nothing else, a dual PA310 XKi might make a cool bass guitar module
Nominal Diameter12"Power Handling (RMS)450 Watts
Power Handling (max)900 WattsImpedance8 ohms
Frequency Response44 to 4,000 Hz
Sensitivity96.1 dB 2.83V/1m
Voice Coil Diameter3"
Magnet Weight80 oz.
Resonant Frequency (Fs)39 Hz
DC Resistance (Re)5.5 ohms
Voice Coil Inductance (Le)1.68 mH
Mechanical Q (Qms)8.85
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)0.30 Total Q (Qts)0.29
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)3.24 ft.³
Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms).23 mm/N
BL Product (BL)18 Tm
Diaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (Mms)72.8g
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)5 mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)530.9 cm²
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PA130 is not suitable for sub. You want something like an actual sub woofer driver. Qts around 0.4 or smaller. Fs around 40Hz or lower.
its a PA310 - same driver MMJ used in his Karlflex - look at the specs above - I'm sure two of them with 150-300 watts apiece would do "something" - - they weigh 16.4lb each so it might be good to try to make the cabinet from 15mm BB instead of 18mm (?) - might take 18mm braced for the aperture
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