now, the little SN10C XKi would be welcomed as small enough for a small room - would it in practice exhibit much dip after the ~300Hz peak?
No, that dip at 300Hz would not be there in practice as the direct radiator on K aperture takes over. The model was for the 6th order band pass bass below 150Hz. So his would work fine.
fwiw here's a rough estimate of JBL's M151 in two similar sized K's - one = TB46's Karlflex, the other, Acoustic Control's classic 115BK Karlson.
115Bk topped with a tube is pretty good despite not going "low" and makes a nice midbass horn substitute in
a small package - it has that "live" sound on vocals and bowed bass viola which can escape
direct radiators and some front-loaded horns
I think there may be some value as to the way Transylvania Power, KK-Audio, Acoustic Control and others
did this little Karlson
I don't know which aspect scalings would suit it best for a 12" - any ideas? As is, its probably too
wide for a 12.
Scaling 115BK by 1.2, and one would have a compact "K18" with about the same bulk as Karlson's original K15
the late Ernst Beck's version used a somewhat smaller port than 115BK
my KK-Audio version adds a constrictive board - perhaps its more a brace - I don't think it helps
response vs the simpler Acoustic Control 115bk
115Bk topped with a tube is pretty good despite not going "low" and makes a nice midbass horn substitute in
a small package - it has that "live" sound on vocals and bowed bass viola which can escape
direct radiators and some front-loaded horns
I think there may be some value as to the way Transylvania Power, KK-Audio, Acoustic Control and others
did this little Karlson
I don't know which aspect scalings would suit it best for a 12" - any ideas? As is, its probably too
wide for a 12.
Scaling 115BK by 1.2, and one would have a compact "K18" with about the same bulk as Karlson's original K15
the late Ernst Beck's version used a somewhat smaller port than 115BK
my KK-Audio version adds a constrictive board - perhaps its more a brace - I don't think it helps
response vs the simpler Acoustic Control 115bk
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I may request help on a K for Delta Pro8a and also for my set of Nirvana Super 8
this coupler I think is somewhat large for Delta Pro8a - it ran W8-1772 and currently tuned ~58Hz as tne central vent is pretty much blocked with foam board. I think fb should raise to perhaps around 70Hz for the strong motor Delta. This is the "tight" aperture - there was also a radial arc aperture and a "fast" aperture. There is room I think with the latter to internally mount a K-tube and clear the wings for an "X8" system.
my hands have gone numb so its getting tough to do much - including typing 🙁
this coupler I think is somewhat large for Delta Pro8a - it ran W8-1772 and currently tuned ~58Hz as tne central vent is pretty much blocked with foam board. I think fb should raise to perhaps around 70Hz for the strong motor Delta. This is the "tight" aperture - there was also a radial arc aperture and a "fast" aperture. There is room I think with the latter to internally mount a K-tube and clear the wings for an "X8" system.
my hands have gone numb so its getting tough to do much - including typing 🙁
pulled the foam out of the 8 inch K-coupler's slot port = much better - might be ok once the K-tube Daytion polymide tweeter is properly attenuated. Might have almost enough "kick" - its away from room boundaries so shy in that department. For 2-way K systems demanding semi-realistic levels, a 10" woofer may be about right.
for those into multi-way, please consider a K-tube
SK8 Delta Pro8a Dayton cd on The Tube - this little K-coupler might be on the large size for some speakers
Acoustic Control 115BK/EV15L, custom version of X15 tube - great near copy of the Transylvania Power Co. K-coupler and "X15" size
K10 size/Delta 10a with custom brass tube & BMD440 - kicks pretty hard
KK-Audio (much like Transylvania Power and Acoustic Control K) w. EV15B topped with The Tube
for those into multi-way, please consider a K-tube
SK8 Delta Pro8a Dayton cd on The Tube - this little K-coupler might be on the large size for some speakers
Acoustic Control 115BK/EV15L, custom version of X15 tube - great near copy of the Transylvania Power Co. K-coupler and "X15" size
K10 size/Delta 10a with custom brass tube & BMD440 - kicks pretty hard
KK-Audio (much like Transylvania Power and Acoustic Control K) w. EV15B topped with The Tube
here's the approximate tuning range of the little SK8 (Super K8) loaded with Eminence Delta Pro 8A with a "tight" aperture vs a "fast expansion" aperture SK8 came from the time of the late and great Gregg Baker's Karlson forum.
I'll take a guess that a slot port above the woofer is more loosely coupled than a similar port at the top of a K-coupler's
front chamber.
this was a nice sounding little cabinet with W8-1772, FE206EN and Nirvana Super 8
its tuned lower than Eminence recommends for Delta Pro 8A
here's a picture of the "fast" aperture when loaded with Nirvana
here's the tight aperture
I'll take a guess that a slot port above the woofer is more loosely coupled than a similar port at the top of a K-coupler's
front chamber.
this was a nice sounding little cabinet with W8-1772, FE206EN and Nirvana Super 8
its tuned lower than Eminence recommends for Delta Pro 8A
here's a picture of the "fast" aperture when loaded with Nirvana
here's the tight aperture
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what I find fascinating listening ~ 5 feet back = if just one inch of the slot at the top is blocked, it loses "color", "agility" and "air" - I need to play this Beta10cx for awhile to get used to it and vice versa. The matching enclosure is currently loaded with a FE206EN and nice. 206EN has a clearer/brighter midrange than this little cheap coax. The coax - more midbass oomph
Would either of these work in a Karlsonator?
Dayton Audio PS220-8 8" Point Source Full-Range Neo Driver
Dayton Audio PS180-8 6-1/2" Point Source Full-Range Neo Driver
If so, what size Karlsonator? I'm looking at trying something new and considering a larger K and possibly one of these drivers.
Thanks,
Mike
Dayton Audio PS220-8 8" Point Source Full-Range Neo Driver
Dayton Audio PS180-8 6-1/2" Point Source Full-Range Neo Driver
If so, what size Karlsonator? I'm looking at trying something new and considering a larger K and possibly one of these drivers.
Thanks,
Mike
xrk971 can tell you as his Karlsonator model seems very good - I would think "so" in stock Karlsonator 8 and stock Karlsonator 6 sizes - - we know PS220 works acceptably in Karlson's old K12 which appeared first in late 1954
GregB's "Karlsonator" allows possibilities which won't work well in the traditional Karlson. That said, it works vice-versa - each has its advantages.
description of PS220 in a "Karlsonette" (the early Karlson 12 with horizontal slot port right above the woofer) http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/191302-dayton-8-fr-ps220-discussion-10.html#post2684506
GregB's "Karlsonator" allows possibilities which won't work well in the traditional Karlson. That said, it works vice-versa - each has its advantages.
description of PS220 in a "Karlsonette" (the early Karlson 12 with horizontal slot port right above the woofer) http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/191302-dayton-8-fr-ps220-discussion-10.html#post2684506
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a request for a K or XKi for the old model of Eminence's B102 - these were in my old fake Druid which worked well but would like to investigate one in a K with a K-tube. I once had one in the slit vent K12 and did not like it. Maybe a bit too large back chamber for its low Qts (?) I cannot fit it in my new 0.62 scale K15 as its cutout is tight with stamped frame Eminence 10s and the cast frame runs about a quarter inch thicker. I don't really know if the old B102 is all that good but it did have more midrange output than their current model plus reasonable bandwidth for a 10" woofer.
I wish Eminence would make a 54oz (or bigger) magnet model of their new B102 with Qt ~0.3 - I like the new surround and cone better but the smaller magnet loses output - the current one is usable.
Def_Driver 'Eminence B102- old model with larger magnet' |Notes: 200 watts, 3mm Xmax - multi-pleat suspension, (Vas)=73.5 liters 2.59 cu. ft. )
Sd=344.9cm2
fs = 45
Mms=28g
Qms=7.07
Qes=0.24
Re=5.66
BL=13.8Tm
Le=0.67mH
it probably did help in a way to remove the flat dust cap but I'm thinking of putting one back on the modified driver to keep junk out of the gap - a wood phase rod/plug would be nice but too much work to taper one
I may have used Damar on the cones - its over a decade ago and don't remember - maybe a light coat of ModPodge
would help (?)
I wish Eminence would make a 54oz (or bigger) magnet model of their new B102 with Qt ~0.3 - I like the new surround and cone better but the smaller magnet loses output - the current one is usable.
Def_Driver 'Eminence B102- old model with larger magnet' |Notes: 200 watts, 3mm Xmax - multi-pleat suspension, (Vas)=73.5 liters 2.59 cu. ft. )
Sd=344.9cm2
fs = 45
Mms=28g
Qms=7.07
Qes=0.24
Re=5.66
BL=13.8Tm
Le=0.67mH
it probably did help in a way to remove the flat dust cap but I'm thinking of putting one back on the modified driver to keep junk out of the gap - a wood phase rod/plug would be nice but too much work to taper one
I may have used Damar on the cones - its over a decade ago and don't remember - maybe a light coat of ModPodge
would help (?)
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saw an Eminence cabinet suggestion sheet from 2005 B102 saying qes = 0.42 - thankfully they goofed as one of my old B102 which hasn't been played for years has Qts ~0.234 and fs ~48 so should make a competent little K/XKi with K-tube on top (or internal tube) - with that reasonably low qts, it might be good to keep its rear chamber small for best subjective transient response. Its only got a 2 inch coil so power handling isn't great but the 59 ounce motor helps. The little Delta Pro 8a has about the same motor size. Delta 10a might be the best little K woofer for the money (? - may try a TF1020 in the K10 which currently houses FE206EN). Beta10cx plays well in the new K10 (0.62 scaled K15) - its got a BIG sound for a cabinet less than 2 cubic feet external bulk. I would assume Delta 10a to play powerfully in the 0.62 scale K10. An "X10" might be made with a faster opening aperture which would allow an internal K-tube to be employed. That would probably fill a pretty large club.
oh - XKi's Dayton PA130 sounds quite good on percussion with surprising low reach for a 5 inch cheap speaker in a small cabinet that's away from boundaries.
oh - XKi's Dayton PA130 sounds quite good on percussion with surprising low reach for a 5 inch cheap speaker in a small cabinet that's away from boundaries.
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Ok, I will keep your custom low Qts parameters in mind for the "Freddi special B102 XKi" 😀
Yes, that would make it a particularly powerful and very compact box.
Yes, that would make it a particularly powerful and very compact box.
Thanks X !
here's the old published description of that driver mixed with the new driver's magnet weight - lol - the first version had a 59oz magnet which looks identical on the outside to the new 45oz magnet so the donut hole on the new must be larger to lose 14oz of magnet material.
the old version had a light "crosshatch" textured cone and muli-pleat cloth surround. The new version has a smooth cone and double-roll cloth surround which may be better damped. The new B102's cone and suspension seemed shared by Beta10cx.
That said, I think the new B102 is entirely usable for a new K with a K-tube coming in around 2KHZ or so as I have one mounted in ancient "K8" roughly scaled from K15
Here's the new B102 crammed into a little K with a cutout for an 8" driver - I think it kicks pretty well from playing
it once topped with a crappy KSN1005 Goldwood piezo knockoff
IIRC this new B102 is the basis of several speakers for sale plus the Klang + Ton "Angus Young" tribute speaker
which uses an upfiring APT50 compression driver with a cone shaped omnidirectional diffusor
OLD B102
NEW B102
I wish when they updated it that they retained the 59oz magnet - or stacked two 38oz slugs, or somehow fitted their 80ioz slug but guess that didn't matter for the low end of bass guitar use. The change did cut midrange sensitivity.
it might be good for some Ks and XKi to have constrained layer or laminated aperture wings/aperture plates. My little XKi for PA130's aperture plate made of 9mm Baltic birch is very "live" with a high Q resonance if flicked hard with a finger.
Eminence Legend B102 Bass Speaker (200 Watts, 10 in.)
Legend B102 Bass Speaker (200 Watts, 10 in. Specifications
• Impedance: 8 ohms
• Power Rating: 200Wrms
• Voice Coil Diameter: 2 in.• 50.8mm
• Coil Material: Copper
• Flat/Round Coil Wire: Round
• Coil Former Material: Kapton
• Basket Type: Cast
• Cone Surround Material: Cloth
• Dust Cap Material: Paper (inc. whizzer cone)
• Magnet Weight: 45oz. (should read "59oz)
• Usable Bandwidth (Fs to -3dB): 40Hz - 9kHz
• SPL: 95dB
• Mounting Information
• Nominal Basket Diameter: 10.25 in.
• 260.4mm
• Baffle Hole Diameter: 9.12 in.
• 233.6mm
• Mounting Holes Diameter: 0.275 in.
• 7mm
• Mounting Holes B.C.D.: 9.62 in.
• 244.3mm
• Depth: 4.33 in.
• 110mm
• Shipping Weight: 12 lbs.
• 5.5 kg.
• Thiele-Small Parameters
• Resonant Frequency (fs): 45Hz
• Impedance (Re): 5.66 ohms
• Coil Inductance (Le): 0.67mH
• Electromagnetic Q (Qes): 0.24
• Mechanical Q (Qms): 7.07
• Total Q (Qts): 0.23
• Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas): 73.5 liters
• 2.59 cu. ft.
• Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms): 0.44mm/N
• BL Product (BL): 13.76 T-M
• Diaphragm Mass inc. Airload (Mms)
• Equiv. Resistance of Mechanical: 28 grams
• Suspension Loss (Rms): 1.13N*sec/M
• Efficiency Bandwidth Product (EBP): 190
• Voice Coil Overhang (Xmax): 3.0mm
• Surface Area of Cone (Sd): 344.9cm2
here's the old published description of that driver mixed with the new driver's magnet weight - lol - the first version had a 59oz magnet which looks identical on the outside to the new 45oz magnet so the donut hole on the new must be larger to lose 14oz of magnet material.
the old version had a light "crosshatch" textured cone and muli-pleat cloth surround. The new version has a smooth cone and double-roll cloth surround which may be better damped. The new B102's cone and suspension seemed shared by Beta10cx.
That said, I think the new B102 is entirely usable for a new K with a K-tube coming in around 2KHZ or so as I have one mounted in ancient "K8" roughly scaled from K15
Here's the new B102 crammed into a little K with a cutout for an 8" driver - I think it kicks pretty well from playing
it once topped with a crappy KSN1005 Goldwood piezo knockoff
IIRC this new B102 is the basis of several speakers for sale plus the Klang + Ton "Angus Young" tribute speaker
which uses an upfiring APT50 compression driver with a cone shaped omnidirectional diffusor
OLD B102
NEW B102
I wish when they updated it that they retained the 59oz magnet - or stacked two 38oz slugs, or somehow fitted their 80ioz slug but guess that didn't matter for the low end of bass guitar use. The change did cut midrange sensitivity.
it might be good for some Ks and XKi to have constrained layer or laminated aperture wings/aperture plates. My little XKi for PA130's aperture plate made of 9mm Baltic birch is very "live" with a high Q resonance if flicked hard with a finger.
Eminence Legend B102 Bass Speaker (200 Watts, 10 in.)
Legend B102 Bass Speaker (200 Watts, 10 in. Specifications
• Impedance: 8 ohms
• Power Rating: 200Wrms
• Voice Coil Diameter: 2 in.• 50.8mm
• Coil Material: Copper
• Flat/Round Coil Wire: Round
• Coil Former Material: Kapton
• Basket Type: Cast
• Cone Surround Material: Cloth
• Dust Cap Material: Paper (inc. whizzer cone)
• Magnet Weight: 45oz. (should read "59oz)
• Usable Bandwidth (Fs to -3dB): 40Hz - 9kHz
• SPL: 95dB
• Mounting Information
• Nominal Basket Diameter: 10.25 in.
• 260.4mm
• Baffle Hole Diameter: 9.12 in.
• 233.6mm
• Mounting Holes Diameter: 0.275 in.
• 7mm
• Mounting Holes B.C.D.: 9.62 in.
• 244.3mm
• Depth: 4.33 in.
• 110mm
• Shipping Weight: 12 lbs.
• 5.5 kg.
• Thiele-Small Parameters
• Resonant Frequency (fs): 45Hz
• Impedance (Re): 5.66 ohms
• Coil Inductance (Le): 0.67mH
• Electromagnetic Q (Qes): 0.24
• Mechanical Q (Qms): 7.07
• Total Q (Qts): 0.23
• Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas): 73.5 liters
• 2.59 cu. ft.
• Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms): 0.44mm/N
• BL Product (BL): 13.76 T-M
• Diaphragm Mass inc. Airload (Mms)
• Equiv. Resistance of Mechanical: 28 grams
• Suspension Loss (Rms): 1.13N*sec/M
• Efficiency Bandwidth Product (EBP): 190
• Voice Coil Overhang (Xmax): 3.0mm
• Surface Area of Cone (Sd): 344.9cm2
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while speaking of Eminence's B102, the newer version appears in one of Klang +Ton's projects - their "Angus Young" speaker - sourcing a suitable ready made diffusor might be the hardest part. It would be nice to know someone with a wood lathe.
I think this would be fun as a "fullrange" project even tho B102 doesn't have a lot of range
from the title - do they imply actually using it with a standard 6 string electric guitar? - lol Eminence for a medium
size vented cabinet suggests about 1.75 cubic foot internal volume tuned to 48Hz. That cabinet looks to be around 10"x10"
cross-section - there should be more pictures
I think this would be fun as a "fullrange" project even tho B102 doesn't have a lot of range
from the title - do they imply actually using it with a standard 6 string electric guitar? - lol Eminence for a medium
size vented cabinet suggests about 1.75 cubic foot internal volume tuned to 48Hz. That cabinet looks to be around 10"x10"
cross-section - there should be more pictures
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Actually, the b102 (with a 2700hz notch) could be run wide open with a morel cat378 (5.6uF) slid back for time alignment. Seems like an option compared to now hard to find seas a26re4.
what coil and cap value would you guess for the notch? - - are there any cheaper tweeters which could do the work of that Morel and not pop/distort?
This sort of falls under the "full range plus tweet", except the 10" whizzered b102 is rolling past 2khz assuming you deal with the relatively benign peak.
Tekton used it with a audax gold dome, but I think they have 12db crossover.
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/63949-gut-shots-of-a-tekton-lore
The morel is 6db down at 2khz with a 5.6uF.
Not cheap but it is a morel, same 92db as the newer b102 is, and rugged enough to deal with 6db slope.
Even then, us louder folks probably will pop a few tweets.
The b102 would be tune to f3 = fs =48hz in 2.3ft3.
Tekton used it with a audax gold dome, but I think they have 12db crossover.
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/63949-gut-shots-of-a-tekton-lore
The morel is 6db down at 2khz with a 5.6uF.
Not cheap but it is a morel, same 92db as the newer b102 is, and rugged enough to deal with 6db slope.
Even then, us louder folks probably will pop a few tweets.
The b102 would be tune to f3 = fs =48hz in 2.3ft3.
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vs other expenses - ~$62 for good tweeter and fun isn't too bad. On the K-side, I see Eminence still has their LA10850 10" midbass - ~$100 shipped- kinda an upscale Delta10a - 2.9mm xmax (enough for a Karlson), 3" coil, 26g mms, 80oz magnet, shallow enough for compact cabinets/back chamber It should mate pretty nice with a K-tube tweeter - give it a couple of hundred watts for good articulation/dynamics. We need well recorded percussion material - more solo drum or rhythm section only albums.
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/LA10850.pdf
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/LA10850.pdf
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my old B102 ,measure now around 0.234 with a 59oz magnet/2" coil. Delta Pro 8A's qts is too low for a pretty/flat vented alignment but in practice sounds "snappy" imo. (Delta Pro8a might work well in a tower mltl with some 1/4 wave gain around 80)
We can have fullrange with high qts and low moving mass giving pretty midrange and highs but those seem to lack the visceral "snap" of a strong motor. I wonder if Eminence could make a big motor fullrange which would be reasonably balanced and quite a bit better than their 12LTA? - like one or two 54oz magnets stacked, edge wound coil, whatever tricks they know (or should know) ? how much field can they pack into their gap ? how much motor to make a 12LTA type with qts ~0.25?
your Fane with a stronger motor would be cool for vented use - it played rap bass in my Karlsonator but had to be peaking in the upper bass
We can have fullrange with high qts and low moving mass giving pretty midrange and highs but those seem to lack the visceral "snap" of a strong motor. I wonder if Eminence could make a big motor fullrange which would be reasonably balanced and quite a bit better than their 12LTA? - like one or two 54oz magnets stacked, edge wound coil, whatever tricks they know (or should know) ? how much field can they pack into their gap ? how much motor to make a 12LTA type with qts ~0.25?
your Fane with a stronger motor would be cool for vented use - it played rap bass in my Karlsonator but had to be peaking in the upper bass
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