Sarchi said:
Ah, someone (almost) broaching what I least like about this speaker - its impeadance character (and how it will effect amplifiers that don't act as pure voltage amplifiers). Still, most amps ARE like this, and most speakers (diy or commercial) are similar with their impeadance character.
Andy Graddon said:
You tell 'em Andy. I'm a part of your club now. 😉
ShinOBIWAN said:
Not if you do it like I did. They're coming along nicely.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76281
Here's where the pics start
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=879046#post879046
I guess I don't get it either. What would this accomplish? Other than greater distortion at lower volume? Is this like putting a lawn mower engine in your car just to see if it will go slower?
BTW, I heard plenty of Monitor Audio when Sound Advice carried them locally. If speakers in a box sound are your thing, then I guess these wouldn't be half bad. Like I said, nice drivers.
If however, they are some kind of ($1000) yardstick, why not have a pair of them present at every DIY event, as a reference, along with my (mandatory reference equipment) suggestion - real musical instruments, including a drum set.
That way we'll see just how well that 6" boxed woofer (re)produces a kick drum.
Or some magical "fullrange" produces a cymbal strike. 😉
I guess "accuracy" and "realism" is quite different for some.
cheers,
AJ
edit-
Sidebar 1: Specifications
Description: Two-way, ported, bass-reflex loudspeaker. Drive-units: 25mm Gold Dome C-CAM tweeter, 6" C-CAM-cone bass/midrange unit, 6" C-CAM-cone woofer. Crossover frequency: 3kHz. Frequency range: 38Hz–30kHz. Sensitivity: 91dB/W/m . Nominal impedance: 6 ohms. Power handling: 120W RMS.
Dimensions: 33½" (850mm) H by 7¼" (185mm) W by 97/8" (250mm) D. Weight: 40 lbs (18.2kg) shipping.
Finishes: Cherry, Black Oak, Rosenut, Walnut real-wood veneers (all with black grille).
Serial Numbers Of Units Reviewed: 101261 & 2.
Price: $999/pair. Approximate number of dealers: 340.
I must admit I'm not a big fan of rectangular enclosures, infact I doubt many people on here like them. I think that part of DIYing is being different.
I agree many of us don't have the skills to build weird shaped boxes, or atleast we think we don't. I have tried odd shaped, in fact one of mine base based on ShinOBIWAN's contruction, but I also think that rectangular enclosures can look unique and nice as well.
I agree that in the end the Monitor Audio speakers are going to be the best if we are concerned about comparing the time, money, and effort into something; then those comercial speakers would be the best. We can argue until the cows come home about how each of us spend our money and with what tools, but I think that all of us know that there is more to DIY than just trying to beat commercial products. To me atleast, it is fun to use my tools. Its fun to design. To me its fun to learn about audio, call me crazy, but I enjoy it, and I believe you all do as well.
I think that with any hobby we will make mistakes and learn what we like more each time. I know that I have waisted money, but now I think that I waisted my money on purchasing comercial products. Sure they sound great, but I have a lot more fun working outside for a weekend and then coming inside and listening to what I have been working on for such a long time. I don't know about you all, but I was 16 when I built my first amplifier and I was soo happy when it first turned on and played music, I could not have been happier. At that point it did not matter that it was playing local radio broadcasts louder than the music from the CD that was playing through it. Obviously I realized (after I realized that it worked) that it sounded like ****, and that I needed to stick with my Denon at that point, but in the end I was able to learn a lot and after having a capacitor blow up in my face, I rebuilt the amp a good 3 times and it sounds astonishing.
I think that this is true with other comercial speakers as well, that all-in-all, purchasing them would be the best overall investment, but I'd rather get my hands dirty and have some fun. Some other pluses are that you can always make money by building for others, and you will end up on DIYAudio all the time, and if not learning anything you atleast get to look at all the pictures.
Josh
I agree many of us don't have the skills to build weird shaped boxes, or atleast we think we don't. I have tried odd shaped, in fact one of mine base based on ShinOBIWAN's contruction, but I also think that rectangular enclosures can look unique and nice as well.
I agree that in the end the Monitor Audio speakers are going to be the best if we are concerned about comparing the time, money, and effort into something; then those comercial speakers would be the best. We can argue until the cows come home about how each of us spend our money and with what tools, but I think that all of us know that there is more to DIY than just trying to beat commercial products. To me atleast, it is fun to use my tools. Its fun to design. To me its fun to learn about audio, call me crazy, but I enjoy it, and I believe you all do as well.
I think that with any hobby we will make mistakes and learn what we like more each time. I know that I have waisted money, but now I think that I waisted my money on purchasing comercial products. Sure they sound great, but I have a lot more fun working outside for a weekend and then coming inside and listening to what I have been working on for such a long time. I don't know about you all, but I was 16 when I built my first amplifier and I was soo happy when it first turned on and played music, I could not have been happier. At that point it did not matter that it was playing local radio broadcasts louder than the music from the CD that was playing through it. Obviously I realized (after I realized that it worked) that it sounded like ****, and that I needed to stick with my Denon at that point, but in the end I was able to learn a lot and after having a capacitor blow up in my face, I rebuilt the amp a good 3 times and it sounds astonishing.
I think that this is true with other comercial speakers as well, that all-in-all, purchasing them would be the best overall investment, but I'd rather get my hands dirty and have some fun. Some other pluses are that you can always make money by building for others, and you will end up on DIYAudio all the time, and if not learning anything you atleast get to look at all the pictures.
Josh
I dunno, we seem to be going around and around in circle about this topic.
At the end of the day, my gut feeling is this-
If I were to spend $1000 on speakers, I sure would go with DIY. And I could probably build 2 pairs. There are plenty of interesting parts to buy, and lots of well thought out well documented designs to build.
It's just more FUN! The only problem is the TIME factor. :-(
At the end of the day, my gut feeling is this-
If I were to spend $1000 on speakers, I sure would go with DIY. And I could probably build 2 pairs. There are plenty of interesting parts to buy, and lots of well thought out well documented designs to build.
It's just more FUN! The only problem is the TIME factor. :-(
Great debate,
As always I'm on the side of DIY because its the only way for most of us to get what we want. And many folks have rightfully pointed out that its everything that DIY entails that makes it so much fun and rewarding.
But...
I can also see great merit in a few commercial speakers and genuinely do believe that they offer superb value even in light of DIY and the MA RS6's are just such a pair of speakers along with the Mackie HR626 actives.
Top and bottom of it is that non of us on here are going to be stopping DIY'ing and going out to buy something like the RS6's instead but I can acknowledge a good design that offers value for money whether its either DIY or commercial. What I do find amusing is bashing commercial just for the sake of bashing commercial. Considering that these RS6's do sound great for the money, DIY has a tiny following compared to the folks that fork out for commercial stuff and I guess that's why some of us are defensive at times.
As always I'm on the side of DIY because its the only way for most of us to get what we want. And many folks have rightfully pointed out that its everything that DIY entails that makes it so much fun and rewarding.
But...
I can also see great merit in a few commercial speakers and genuinely do believe that they offer superb value even in light of DIY and the MA RS6's are just such a pair of speakers along with the Mackie HR626 actives.
Top and bottom of it is that non of us on here are going to be stopping DIY'ing and going out to buy something like the RS6's instead but I can acknowledge a good design that offers value for money whether its either DIY or commercial. What I do find amusing is bashing commercial just for the sake of bashing commercial. Considering that these RS6's do sound great for the money, DIY has a tiny following compared to the folks that fork out for commercial stuff and I guess that's why some of us are defensive at times.
Cal Weldon said:
OK Cal, I stand corrected, as you and me both are evidence - even idiots can build curved enclosures 😀 /jk
Seriously though, nice work and I like them.
Well if you want to do is pull out the credit card and be done with it, there are plenty of nice commercial designs that don't cost an arm and a leg. The Monitor Audio RS6 is not some kind of miraculous wonder.
To be honest, for an extra $200 I'd get the Revel Concerta F12...
To be honest, for an extra $200 I'd get the Revel Concerta F12...
tktran303 said:
I've pretty much ignored the Stereophile review, infact I haven't even read it.
What I did do was hear these speakers at the Northern Hifi Show 06 here in the UK. I'd go so far as to say that they were one of my favourites at the show and I heard B&W N801D's, some huge Dali line-arrays and a whole host of revered and expensive designs. I'm not saying that the RS6's are better than any of those period but they did sound better than most on the day.
For £599 I thought they were a bargain and to be completely honest, until I asked how much they were, I'd got it into my head that the figure was going to be around £1500. Then again I did hear them on the end of around £10k's worth of Chord equipment, I seriously doubt they sound the same with price matched ancillaries.
I agree that for a commercial product at this pricepoint, the measured performance is VERY good. It seems like the designers focused on the same areas the more empirical minded DIYers (John Krutke, Jon Marsh etc) and made similar compromises as they would. I really don't see why people jumped on the resonance above 20hkz, the seas 27tbfg has very similar behaviour and is consistently brought up as one the best dome tweeters going. So as ScottG said you get very good baseline performance in the areas that many (self included) consider most important. I guess in that sense I do agree that *assumuing* your priorities are similar and you make similar performance compromises, you aren't going to blow them out of the water for the same $$$, only match or improve on the design somewhat.
Once you start comparing apples to oranges, like I did earlier with the Orion, or something with 2 12" woofers, all bets are off, but then you are talking a different 'type' of speaker.
That said, I still think you will do just as well or better with a similar ported 2.5 way using Dayton RS or Seas metal cone drivers, with competent crossover design, and massively overbuilt cabinets. I figure $300-450 in drivers/crossovers, another $100 in cabinets, if you're cheap like me, or say $300 if you go over the top with fancy finishes/CLD/3" thick baffle/whatever. That still only puts you at $750 or so. Plus you will be able to tweak the low frequency damping, BSC, and high frequency level to match boundary gain/liveness in your room, something you can't do with the monitor audio speaker. So even shooting for the same goals, making the same compromises, I think a diyer can match or beat this design at the pricepoint, even accounting for the great value it provides.
Once you start comparing apples to oranges, like I did earlier with the Orion, or something with 2 12" woofers, all bets are off, but then you are talking a different 'type' of speaker.
That said, I still think you will do just as well or better with a similar ported 2.5 way using Dayton RS or Seas metal cone drivers, with competent crossover design, and massively overbuilt cabinets. I figure $300-450 in drivers/crossovers, another $100 in cabinets, if you're cheap like me, or say $300 if you go over the top with fancy finishes/CLD/3" thick baffle/whatever. That still only puts you at $750 or so. Plus you will be able to tweak the low frequency damping, BSC, and high frequency level to match boundary gain/liveness in your room, something you can't do with the monitor audio speaker. So even shooting for the same goals, making the same compromises, I think a diyer can match or beat this design at the pricepoint, even accounting for the great value it provides.
morbo has it spot on IMHO, and with that $750 he calculated, people like me can add the pair of 12" woofers biamped for some REAL bass and still make it under $1000.
The availability of high quality speakers is NOT an argument against DIY.
DIY is a pursuit unto itself, independent of other concerns.
I agree with an earlier poster that in that a lot of cases, a DIY'er ends up spending a great deal of money in materials and tools, not to mention TIME (you only get so much) - usually much more than if they bought a quality product from a manufacturer. I also think that the oft claimed "superiority" of some DIY efforts have more to do with proud poppa syndrome than actual performance. Some heavy hitters on this forum (you know who they are) may be able to put together a speaker or amp design that's as good or better than many commercial offerings for less money, but they're not common.
But all that's irrelevant to the DIY'er, anyway.
DIY is as much about learning and the satisfaction that's derived from getting your hands dirty than anything else, including saving money. If it was about the music, you wouldn't see so many people building project after project after project in the pursuit of "perfection" or whatever it is they're after. They'd be listening to music instead.
I think that the thread's stated premise is in itself flawed. The idea that if a superior product is available for less than what it costs to DIY, that's a good reason to forget about DIY altogether. That may be the case for some, but not for the majority of the people on this forum (it IS called DIY AUDIO, after all).
DIY is a pursuit unto itself, independent of other concerns.
I agree with an earlier poster that in that a lot of cases, a DIY'er ends up spending a great deal of money in materials and tools, not to mention TIME (you only get so much) - usually much more than if they bought a quality product from a manufacturer. I also think that the oft claimed "superiority" of some DIY efforts have more to do with proud poppa syndrome than actual performance. Some heavy hitters on this forum (you know who they are) may be able to put together a speaker or amp design that's as good or better than many commercial offerings for less money, but they're not common.
But all that's irrelevant to the DIY'er, anyway.
DIY is as much about learning and the satisfaction that's derived from getting your hands dirty than anything else, including saving money. If it was about the music, you wouldn't see so many people building project after project after project in the pursuit of "perfection" or whatever it is they're after. They'd be listening to music instead.
I think that the thread's stated premise is in itself flawed. The idea that if a superior product is available for less than what it costs to DIY, that's a good reason to forget about DIY altogether. That may be the case for some, but not for the majority of the people on this forum (it IS called DIY AUDIO, after all).
Re: The availability of high quality speakers is NOT an argument against DIY.
Did you read the first post? I say this because others seem to have the same problem you are - and I've already corrected it once.
Note the concluding "paragraph":
"It's certainly no substitute for building loudspeakers as a hobby - BUT there are plenty of people posting and browsing here that just want really good sound for not an outrageous sum of money.. so IMO this is it. REAL VALUE."
Additionally David Gatti (also on the first page) noted an option that I had also considered when I created the thread:
"Another option is to buy a decent product like the above and measure/modify it to meet your needs."
On the basis of drivers and basic design alone this is still a "pretty good" to even "excellent" value. For a beginner - imagine what a quality cap replacement to the crossover might add to the quality of the loudspeaker. (..perhaps even creating an out-board crossover box.) At a more advanced level consider creating a better enclosure (particularly one with a more dense and rigid baffle). ..and there are a LOT of possibilities here.
Now do you think the premis is flawed?
Additionally - some people seem to be missing the hyper-links at the bottom of the review.. so I'll post them here:
Review:
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/
Specifications:
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/index1.html
Associated Equipment:
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/index2.html
and of particular importance.. Measurements:
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/index3.html
Finally, the Revel F12 was mentioned as a competitor (and it legitimatly is), however note the "negative" qualities of this speaker as mentioned in this review:
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/revel_concerta_f12.htm
Of particular interest is this paragraph:
"So far, I have focused solely on positive characteristics of these speakers. Does this mean that the F12s are flawless? Not quite. I’ve heard other speakers that provide even more soundstage depth as well as more detail than the Revels. For example, while Joni Mitchell’s voice had excellent presence on the F12s, I’ve heard other speakers that displayed it with even greater texture and transparency. However, these details are quite minute when one considers everything else the Revels have to offer. And in reality, you’ll pay quite a bit more if you want to recover that last bit of detail."
Its precisely this quality that the Monitor Audio has - AND at a lower price.
As Shin' described and alluded to here (this thread) upon listening to the Monitor Audio - it isn't embaressed by high dollar ancillary equipment (..where other designs like the Revel likely will be).
BHD said:
Did you read the first post? I say this because others seem to have the same problem you are - and I've already corrected it once.
Note the concluding "paragraph":
"It's certainly no substitute for building loudspeakers as a hobby - BUT there are plenty of people posting and browsing here that just want really good sound for not an outrageous sum of money.. so IMO this is it. REAL VALUE."
Additionally David Gatti (also on the first page) noted an option that I had also considered when I created the thread:
"Another option is to buy a decent product like the above and measure/modify it to meet your needs."
On the basis of drivers and basic design alone this is still a "pretty good" to even "excellent" value. For a beginner - imagine what a quality cap replacement to the crossover might add to the quality of the loudspeaker. (..perhaps even creating an out-board crossover box.) At a more advanced level consider creating a better enclosure (particularly one with a more dense and rigid baffle). ..and there are a LOT of possibilities here.
Now do you think the premis is flawed?
Additionally - some people seem to be missing the hyper-links at the bottom of the review.. so I'll post them here:
Review:
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/
Specifications:
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/index1.html
Associated Equipment:
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/index2.html
and of particular importance.. Measurements:
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/index3.html
Finally, the Revel F12 was mentioned as a competitor (and it legitimatly is), however note the "negative" qualities of this speaker as mentioned in this review:
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/revel_concerta_f12.htm
Of particular interest is this paragraph:
"So far, I have focused solely on positive characteristics of these speakers. Does this mean that the F12s are flawless? Not quite. I’ve heard other speakers that provide even more soundstage depth as well as more detail than the Revels. For example, while Joni Mitchell’s voice had excellent presence on the F12s, I’ve heard other speakers that displayed it with even greater texture and transparency. However, these details are quite minute when one considers everything else the Revels have to offer. And in reality, you’ll pay quite a bit more if you want to recover that last bit of detail."
Its precisely this quality that the Monitor Audio has - AND at a lower price.
As Shin' described and alluded to here (this thread) upon listening to the Monitor Audio - it isn't embaressed by high dollar ancillary equipment (..where other designs like the Revel likely will be).
You like these speakers. Great. I've heard Monitor Audio loudspeakers on a few occasions, and I liked them too.
But all the qualifiers in the world don't change the fact that the title of this thread is:
🙄
I maintain that they are not. Not even based on value.
But all the qualifiers in the world don't change the fact that the title of this thread is:
🙄
I maintain that they are not. Not even based on value.
morbo said:
Morbo,
The measured performance VERY good? What's good about it? Look at the Revel F12 measurements. Those are good speaker measurements.
Competent crossover design. That is one very important part of speaker design. How many DIY'ers are competent crossover designers? Likely very few. My point is that it's easy for a DIYer to use a $2000 set of flagship drivers and end up with a speaker that sounds worse than $500/pr professionally designed speakers. So many of the Hi-End exhibits by companies started by DIYers at Alexis park are proof of that. If the main goal is accurate sound, why take the chance?
I continue to wonder why people take magazine reviews (especially Stereophile!) at face value. Does anyone every notice that they rarely ever give a speaker a bad review? I can't remember reading a bad speaker review in the past 15 years. There's a reason for that. They don't bite the hand that feeds them!. Anyone who has heard and read the first few Krell speaker reviews will know what I'm talking about. They were horrible sounding speakers. The measurements were bad. The magazines gave this speaker a favourable review:
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/krell_lat2/
BHD said:
The subject line is a starter - an advertisement if you will.
It has something to do with the thread, but not neccesarily "exatly" to do with the thread.
The first post provides the detail to "flesh-out" the subject line. It provides explanation, (or context and clarity). Without that explanation virtually ANY thread on this board will not provide enough information to even reply to, (.. meaningfully reply to).
So yes, in fact it does change the title (to a degree).
sphinx said:
Whats is better about the F12 over the Monitor Audio? To me the on-axis response is a little flater - but thats principally because the Stereophile response is AVERAGED (..they are taken at similar distances). The off-axis response however is not nearly as good as the Monitor Audio. The operating passband is similar, but the Monitor Audio's go lower at level, and have very similar extension. The F12 has a flater impedance than the Monitor Audio. Harmonic distortion of the F12 is good, but we don't know what Monitor Audio is like here (..and yes, I think Sterephile should definitly be providing non-linear distortion measurements). On the otherhand Stereophile DOES provide linear distortion via the CSD plot. The CSD shows that the decay of this speaker is not just good, but ASTOUNDING (at any price), particularly in the 300-1.5kHz range. I seriously doubt that the F12 could even come close to this decay performance. I also think that the comment on the lack of "detail" is directly related to decay character.
As to Sterephile as being credible SUBJECTIVELY (..not the objective measurements) - well thats up to you. I will say that there are less than "glowing" reviews in it, and you should consider that reviewers are not likely to review products that they don't think have any worth (i.e. its likely they have already heard the product to some extent before and liked it). Still, I'm not bothered if you don't like Stereophile.
A point to be made here is that with todays measuring and design equipment, ALL commercial speakers should measure well. This can be shown by the fact that even some of us lowly DIYers can do it without too much difficulty.
There is no excuse for bad commercial speakers except ignorance or lazyness or extreme cost cutting.
This speaker only stands out from some others because it actually does measure reasonably well and apparently sounds quite reasonable !!
There is no excuse for bad commercial speakers except ignorance or lazyness or extreme cost cutting.
This speaker only stands out from some others because it actually does measure reasonably well and apparently sounds quite reasonable !!
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