i do prefere coaxials to seperates, with seperates the lobing nulls off axis is something i just can not live with anymore for any long period
so far i have only worked with sb acoustics sb16pfc , seas t18, eminence 12cx, p-audio sn6-150cx and some dls car audio coaxials and a few no-name in ceiling speakers
we all seems to favor different things and most likely we also listens differently. i might be sensitive to phasey issues in some frequency bands while some seems sensitive to freq errors in other bands like in tweeter top octave
so far i have only worked with sb acoustics sb16pfc , seas t18, eminence 12cx, p-audio sn6-150cx and some dls car audio coaxials and a few no-name in ceiling speakers
we all seems to favor different things and most likely we also listens differently. i might be sensitive to phasey issues in some frequency bands while some seems sensitive to freq errors in other bands like in tweeter top octave
It's easy to imagine we can hear this kind of phase issue. When you listen to things like this
NEW ° The Small Faces ? Itchycoo Park ?? 5K (Stereo) - YouTube
beginning at 48 seconds.
However it's more instructive to look at what the issue does to the distribution of sound in the room. After all, some align their crossover not to be completely in phase, and don't expect to hear any phase issues because of it.
NEW ° The Small Faces ? Itchycoo Park ?? 5K (Stereo) - YouTube
beginning at 48 seconds.
However it's more instructive to look at what the issue does to the distribution of sound in the room. After all, some align their crossover not to be completely in phase, and don't expect to hear any phase issues because of it.
No KEF drivers there.
Anyway, they have the Monacor SP-310CX's for 149 eur piece though, Klang+Ton Studio 10 drivers, see Test Selbstbauprojekt - Monacor K+T-Projekt Studio 10 - Seite 1 (click right on the pics, there are some graphs and xover schematics, too).
I'm usually listening with B&C 15" coaxials in very large boxes (still they are kind of bass shy). The stereo imaging is odd.
You can always buy a cheap pair of Kef Q100, Q150 or R100.
Im listening to a par of R100s' that I got for 300$, if I had the skills it would be cool to make a 3 way with a sidefiring (sub)woofer.
This goes to 50hz in a 20 liter closed box, and I guess that you could get a little more extension with DSP, if you wanted Lautsprecher Shop | Omnes Audio W8 Alu Silver | Lautsprecher Selbstbau
Im listening to a par of R100s' that I got for 300$, if I had the skills it would be cool to make a 3 way with a sidefiring (sub)woofer.
This goes to 50hz in a 20 liter closed box, and I guess that you could get a little more extension with DSP, if you wanted Lautsprecher Shop | Omnes Audio W8 Alu Silver | Lautsprecher Selbstbau
Hi, which B&C 15” coaxials are you using and in what enclosures? what do you mean by “stereo imaging is odd”? i would appreciate if you can elaborate more on this.
thanks.
thanks.
my setup is almost nearfield to minimize the influence of the room, but that is not it, with seperate drivers and when you sit ever so slightly off listening center you will hear four or more drivers playing out of time. with coaxial drivers one have minimized these phase issues and the result is very audible, for the better
Yes there are artifacts with coax just like any two way speaker but I do actually prefer them over traditional. Beta 10cx and 12cx to my ears works very well. It’s a little bumpy but nothing that bothers me, and the dynamic coherence or whatever it is is just something I love. Whether it’s the PA style mid bass, horn or actual coax I don’t know but I like it. Will try my recently procured Celestion soon too. Will be interesting.
It's easy: Point source speakers got the potential of the best possible stage reproduction/location. And you don't get any additional phase errors by moving in the room, though tweeter on a pole, front horns etc don't fulfill that completely.
You can't reach a sound point source speaker except with a full range, coax/triax or unity horn, the latter being expensive or big (or both) and take much more effort and time in designing them.
There is a reason why full range speakers got so many fans. Still a compromise but in other areas - you have to choose your own poison. 😀
^ i don't agree 100%: vertical symmetrical arrangement ( from MTM to Wmtmw) are an attempt to pointsourceness too ( and may works great if correctly implemented).
Yes the same sound when moving within the room: the main reason i found pointsource 'relaxing'.
That's why i told Hifijim about longterm impression/feeling, rather than being convinced intellectually. I agree with Celef this is a preference things.
I disagree about one point with Spladsky: System800 passive is disappointing. Active version is not at all and amongst the best 8" implementation i've heard. They addressed nicely the issue within the active filter section.
More than the ragged high i fear more the offset between tweeter/cd and direct radiator which i've found problematic for simple passive filter with some coax i've met ( mostly Pro units and some Tannoys).
Yes the same sound when moving within the room: the main reason i found pointsource 'relaxing'.
That's why i told Hifijim about longterm impression/feeling, rather than being convinced intellectually. I agree with Celef this is a preference things.
I disagree about one point with Spladsky: System800 passive is disappointing. Active version is not at all and amongst the best 8" implementation i've heard. They addressed nicely the issue within the active filter section.
More than the ragged high i fear more the offset between tweeter/cd and direct radiator which i've found problematic for simple passive filter with some coax i've met ( mostly Pro units and some Tannoys).
The MTM arrangement works if done correctly, D'Appolito researched it extensively. If you deviate from that (which 99,9% of the speakers do) you don't get the same result. So many MTMs are xo'd way too high for that. Plus, it's still dependent on the height of the ear. I can hear the difference and lobing very well, that's why I usually don't like it that much. I guess other ppl are less sensitive to that or they are not realizing what they are actually hearing. Don't get me wrong: there are many speakers which are perfectly fine and good sounding with MTM and for most ppl that's perfectly fine and if you stay at the same height while listening, it's also okay with me, I am just easily annoyed by the phase shift.
Yes, I completely agree. Also the homogenity can be perfect at a coax and almost always at a full range. The most big full range have just a small sweet spot, the small ones lack in dynamics. 🙁 I am not sure what to build next, I ponder if I should get the Fane 12-250TC, the triple cone makes the dispersion at the upper end a lot wider, according to several people who use them.
Yes, I see it the same. Everyone got different preferences and even a perfect speaker is not for everyone because everyone got a different room, way of listening, loudness and music. You have to find the compromise which fits your needs best. The speakers which are very impressive at the initial listening session often get annoying after listening to them for longer, the effects where they were impressing runs tiresome.
The word point source is beginning to lose its meaning (starting before this thread). It's being use to describe correlating phase with a physical location. A full range speaker is not really a point source.
Default A problem that plagues most coaxials
Looking at current offerings by reputable manufacturers, 18sound, FaitalPro, etc.
Most if not all good sized coaxials, 12" 15", even 10" seem to have ugly behaviour in the FR at the upper range of the woofer, where it needs to cross to the CD.
Has anyone any idea, done any research, what is it that contributes to this ragged response in the upper range? It seems to be consistent. A sharp dip, and then some ugly peaks.
Is it the horn mouth opening and expansion in the center?
The deep cone profile?
What the heck?
Why can't they make it right, there seems to be an inherent issue...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seas has a Coaaxil.
I doubt its any good.
Try wide bands,
IMHO wide bands are the speaker of the 21st C.
DavidLouis VX8, Perfection - YouTube
Looking at current offerings by reputable manufacturers, 18sound, FaitalPro, etc.
Most if not all good sized coaxials, 12" 15", even 10" seem to have ugly behaviour in the FR at the upper range of the woofer, where it needs to cross to the CD.
Has anyone any idea, done any research, what is it that contributes to this ragged response in the upper range? It seems to be consistent. A sharp dip, and then some ugly peaks.
Is it the horn mouth opening and expansion in the center?
The deep cone profile?
What the heck?
Why can't they make it right, there seems to be an inherent issue...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seas has a Coaaxil.
I doubt its any good.
Try wide bands,
IMHO wide bands are the speaker of the 21st C.
DavidLouis VX8, Perfection - YouTube
Well what is it then ya tease...
Did you guys already talk about the altec 604's? Aren't these the best co-axials available? Tannoys latest 15" coaxial is note note worthy too, is it not?
Can a coax be the best sounding speaker? Probably not.
Can it be the most interesting sounding speaker? Absolutely.
I love the sound of many coax speakers, 604, Geithain, and Tannoy.
Can it be the most interesting sounding speaker? Absolutely.
I love the sound of many coax speakers, 604, Geithain, and Tannoy.
Like Camplo if you could expand a bit further your thoughts Allen?
I can see how the bigger ones could be considered as to bulky to be totally a point source anymore but the smaller one are relatively small vs wavelength ( the range on which they behave as a point source is wider than with large diameter as pointed by directivity behavior).
Coax are not really differents about this too ( except some offers some directivity control).
A full range speaker is not really a point source? Well, what is it then? And according to what I assume your definition is, then most coaxes aren't either.
krivium, I am glad the active System 800 actives work. The issue with the passive (at least the ones I have) is that the phase difference at crossover was 90 degrees, causing modulation, clearly heard with a sine wave,
The original concept by Guy Fountain for Tannoy is actually a psycho-acoustic trick. I used to think that a compression driver and a 15 inch cone was a stupid idea. However, Guy Fountain figured out that if the crossover is low enough, the ear will believe the compression driver and not the cone. For this reason I am considering coaxial compression drivers. These can go down to 800Hz. Needing a bass driver, the end result is not true coaxial. It might behave like it is.
On the topic of ragged frequency, this is caused by diffraction. Now that 3D printing is widely available. I believe that a structure can be added to the rim of the tweeter to ameliorate this. KEF has effectively done this. Rather than complain, we should be exploring this avenue.
The original concept by Guy Fountain for Tannoy is actually a psycho-acoustic trick. I used to think that a compression driver and a 15 inch cone was a stupid idea. However, Guy Fountain figured out that if the crossover is low enough, the ear will believe the compression driver and not the cone. For this reason I am considering coaxial compression drivers. These can go down to 800Hz. Needing a bass driver, the end result is not true coaxial. It might behave like it is.
On the topic of ragged frequency, this is caused by diffraction. Now that 3D printing is widely available. I believe that a structure can be added to the rim of the tweeter to ameliorate this. KEF has effectively done this. Rather than complain, we should be exploring this avenue.
^ Yes in the active version they used 2 allpass in serie to bring back a more coherent summed phase between both drivers.
The smaller 6,5" passive had same issue:
Tannoy System 600 Speaker Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
The System1200 doesn't...
The psychoacoustic trick is close to the effect discribed by Synergy/meh owners about all different way merge and seems to radiate from a small sphere.
Basically about point source the academic definition i was given implie an almost zero physical dimension and an omni radiation patttern iirc ( at least for audio, i'm not sure if it extend to other physics field too). None of the actual realworld solution pretending being pointsource can't fullfill the requirement...
The smaller 6,5" passive had same issue:
Tannoy System 600 Speaker Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
The System1200 doesn't...
The psychoacoustic trick is close to the effect discribed by Synergy/meh owners about all different way merge and seems to radiate from a small sphere.
Basically about point source the academic definition i was given implie an almost zero physical dimension and an omni radiation patttern iirc ( at least for audio, i'm not sure if it extend to other physics field too). None of the actual realworld solution pretending being pointsource can't fullfill the requirement...
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