Going back a few posts....OK a lot of posts. StewMac Water Base is made by Target Finishes. Skip the middleman and buy it directly from Jeff Dewitt. He is the lead chemist and owner of Target Finishing / Homestead finishing.com.
Someone else suggested wet sanding the primer coats on an MFD speaker build. If you like playing "Chicken" with trains and such go ahead, but one small pinhole in the primer will swell the MDF and make your life miserable.
Even if the primer is oil base. Another option is to use dewaxed shellac to seal the MDF, then a heavy build primer. After a few coats of primer build, sand with 320 DRY, then change the color of the primer and give it another coat, light block sand and this will show up the high/low spots in the paint. Spray a few coats of base and block sand with 400 grit or higher (600 grit), rougher cut papers will show scratches through the finish later.
If you are using a Water Based base and top coat finish then stick with a water base for all of the products. There is even a water base dewaxed shellac! Wow! There is a difference BTW between a Water Base and Water Borne finish. The Water Borne finish MAY/CAN have some oil based VOC products in the formulation, and may not be compatible with other Water Based finishes.
Best to stay with a paint schedule from start to finish. (oil or Water Based)
Ron
I would recommend a consultation with a rep from either Sherwin Williams or PPG (Pittsburgh Paints) for a better product.
I know from my own experience there is a big difference in how they spray - the waterborne needs to be thicker in the gun and sprayed at a higher pressure (I had great results at 80psi with a standard gravity feed gun). The waterborne also likes heat and really flashes off fast in direct sunlight on a hot day (when spraying outdoors). Heatlamps can do the same in a spray booth to greatly accelerate the finishing process.
Worth pursuing IMO.
Hi Ron,
I think that there is no better sealer for raw MDF than a single coat of solvent based clear polyurethane. The advantages are availability (you can buy it anywhere) and it is nearly impervious to moisture once cured (unlike shellac). Also it does not separate when it is absorbed into the wood fibers (like the end grain of MDF) so it provides consistent protection from moisture absorption. A light sanding with fine paper and it's good for primer.
As for sticking with one type of finish (solvent vs waterborne) from start to finish, I don't agree. It is best to apply a solvent based sealer (such as the above mention polyurethane) then proceed with the waterborne primer and waterborne finish. This prevents the water from the waterborne primer from being absorbed into the wood.
This is standard practice, even in residential house painting - the primer for wood would be alkyd based (oil) with water based acrylic latex for a top coat.
John,
I was hoping you were still watching this thread!
Given your past expertise and input while Ant was still with us,....
..... Your knowledge and experience far exceeds mine. I've sprayed a lot of high VOC enamels with an HVLP, but am relatively new to the Water Base finishes. Sure like the ease of clean up though!
I think we both agree on a NON-water based sealer for MDF. Notice I recommended dewaxed shellac, which is an alcohol base (normally) yes they do make a WB shellac, but I was only pointing that out for some whom may not be aware of it's existence. My comments about sticking with WB or Oil base were intended to prevent someone from thinking the two were interchangeable. I should have been clearer. My fault. Thanks for the clarification.
I take it you recommend S.W. polyurethane and their base/clear coat schedule?
How well does that stick to an oil stain or BLO ?
Could you share the specifics with us? If you have already posted them, just say so and I'll reread this thread to find them. It's such a great thread anyway.
Question or advice; How do you keep from getting runs/sags around the bottom of the driver cutouts? I've tried to spray all 5 sides at the same time to prevent overspray problems. Do you shoot the baffle separately later?
Thanks.
Merry Christmas
Ron
I've recently finished spraying some questionably old Target USL clear over a base coat of USL black on a pair of small speakers, nice finish without buffing out yet. They are a Christmas present and won't be fully cured in time to polish and buff........I was looking forward to trying my hand at the "Piano" finish. As Global Warming has overcome us here in sunny Northern California it snowed 6" last week and lasted on the ground for 4 days. This played havoc with my finishing schedule and caused a few problems as you can imagine. Unheated garage, rental house, can't find any tools.... excuses, excuses. Still and all they came out pretty good for the adverse conditions.
I was hoping you were still watching this thread!
Given your past expertise and input while Ant was still with us,....
..... Your knowledge and experience far exceeds mine. I've sprayed a lot of high VOC enamels with an HVLP, but am relatively new to the Water Base finishes. Sure like the ease of clean up though! I think we both agree on a NON-water based sealer for MDF. Notice I recommended dewaxed shellac, which is an alcohol base (normally) yes they do make a WB shellac, but I was only pointing that out for some whom may not be aware of it's existence. My comments about sticking with WB or Oil base were intended to prevent someone from thinking the two were interchangeable. I should have been clearer. My fault. Thanks for the clarification.
I take it you recommend S.W. polyurethane and their base/clear coat schedule?
How well does that stick to an oil stain or BLO ?
Could you share the specifics with us? If you have already posted them, just say so and I'll reread this thread to find them. It's such a great thread anyway.
Question or advice; How do you keep from getting runs/sags around the bottom of the driver cutouts? I've tried to spray all 5 sides at the same time to prevent overspray problems. Do you shoot the baffle separately later?
Thanks.
Merry Christmas
Ron
I've recently finished spraying some questionably old Target USL clear over a base coat of USL black on a pair of small speakers, nice finish without buffing out yet. They are a Christmas present and won't be fully cured in time to polish and buff........I was looking forward to trying my hand at the "Piano" finish. As Global Warming has overcome us here in sunny Northern California it snowed 6" last week and lasted on the ground for 4 days.
This played havoc with my finishing schedule and caused a few problems as you can imagine. Unheated garage, rental house, can't find any tools.... excuses, excuses. Still and all they came out pretty good for the adverse conditions.Attachments
Hi Ron,
I've used Sherwin William's Armorseal waterborne urethane paint on a few projects with excellent results. It is actually an industrial floor paint, it's 1K but cures very hard - harder than solvent based urethane. I used it here:
And here:
without a clearcoat - just sprayed the colour, wet sand with 2000 grit and buff. They look the same today, the paint is very durable and has excellent gloss retention. I've also used it as the basecoat for a clear solvent based finish with great results.
I inquired about AWX at Sherwin Williams automotive paint supply and they gave me a demo of the clearcoat...wow, it is stunning how fast it dries and just how hard it got - incredible. It's expensive though, at the time nearly $300.00 per gallon plus reducer and hardener. I have been tempted...
Snow in California?? Put you in the Christmas spirit though.
We have lots up here (as usual). I live in what is affectionately known as "the snow belt". I swear, I've passed through an invisible border on my way home some days - I can see it, snow there, none here.
Your boxes look good, a fine present for whoever gets them. A word of caution on the "piano gloss" finish: it is a short road to insanity, especially when you burn through the paint while sanding and need to respray over again. It doesn't stand out anymore either - too many plastic things now have that finish (no labour involved in it, it comes out of the mold that way).
It's all fun though and by trying to use low VOC products you do your health a favour and cut the risk of fire.
I've used Sherwin William's Armorseal waterborne urethane paint on a few projects with excellent results. It is actually an industrial floor paint, it's 1K but cures very hard - harder than solvent based urethane. I used it here:
And here:
without a clearcoat - just sprayed the colour, wet sand with 2000 grit and buff. They look the same today, the paint is very durable and has excellent gloss retention. I've also used it as the basecoat for a clear solvent based finish with great results.
I inquired about AWX at Sherwin Williams automotive paint supply and they gave me a demo of the clearcoat...wow, it is stunning how fast it dries and just how hard it got - incredible. It's expensive though, at the time nearly $300.00 per gallon plus reducer and hardener. I have been tempted...
Snow in California??
Put you in the Christmas spirit though.We have lots up here (as usual). I live in what is affectionately known as "the snow belt". I swear, I've passed through an invisible border on my way home some days - I can see it, snow there, none here.
Your boxes look good, a fine present for whoever gets them. A word of caution on the "piano gloss" finish: it is a short road to insanity, especially when you burn through the paint while sanding and need to respray over again. It doesn't stand out anymore either - too many plastic things now have that finish (no labour involved in it, it comes out of the mold that way).
It's all fun though and by trying to use low VOC products you do your health a favour and cut the risk of fire.
Hi kodemma,
First, see HERE. I'm not sure if it's available in your part of the country yet. It was only available in Canada or California initially due to new laws concerning VOC content.
With that said, I'd recommend that you start out with a less expensive product. The Armorseal urethane paint I mentioned above is relatively cheap and has outstanding performance. You can special order it at any Sherwin Williams retail outlet.
It's a good idea to let the sealer coat cure for at least a full day at room temperature, longer if possible. Sand lightly with 400 grit paper prior to priming.
First, see HERE. I'm not sure if it's available in your part of the country yet. It was only available in Canada or California initially due to new laws concerning VOC content.
With that said, I'd recommend that you start out with a less expensive product. The Armorseal urethane paint I mentioned above is relatively cheap and has outstanding performance. You can special order it at any Sherwin Williams retail outlet.
It's a good idea to let the sealer coat cure for at least a full day at room temperature, longer if possible. Sand lightly with 400 grit paper prior to priming.
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Many years ago when I was trying to poison myself with nasty, nasty chemicals refinishing bathtubs, Isosionates a friend and competitor used the Armorseal Urethane and then buffed it out the next day. His always came out looking great.
I was using a product from Courtaulds Aerospace that was brilliant white and damn near bulletproof.....it was the same paint as on the Space Shuttle. MJL just about the same price as your high end SW.
Crap, just hit a website that is attacking my laptop for info. gotta shut down.
Ron
I was using a product from Courtaulds Aerospace that was brilliant white and damn near bulletproof.....it was the same paint as on the Space Shuttle. MJL just about the same price as your high end SW.
Crap, just hit a website that is attacking my laptop for info. gotta shut down.
Ron
i had to re-do my tv hanger due to some cracks at joints... thnak god i didnt start painting yet... i asked one of employee at sherwin, he didn't know about armorseal.. damn it... but he recommended this paint, forgot what it's called, some sort of tiles and bathroom... he said w/ this i dont even need primer or sealer cuz this thing has good sealing affect. high gloss and very durable he says..... does it sound rite to you, Mj???
Seems you are a little impatient to get rolling. Best to slow down and make sure you have all your ducks in a row before you start shooting
The employee at SW will need to look up the product - it's not a residential type of paint and it needs to be special ordered. Just print off and bring in the page that I linked to earlier and they should be able to find it.
I can't vouch for any other paint (especially as vaguely as you have described it) as I haven't used it.
Not to necro the thread but I wanted to thank you guys for your information. I just finished the first of my speakers last night and it turned out really well. I didn't follow the guide exactly, I ended up painting the speaker completely differently. Instead of countless layers of primer and clear coats I used 2 coats of Clawlock catalyzing primer and 3 coats of Resistant catalyzing varnish and no top coat at all, sanding every other coat with 600p. The primer and paint are thicker and more durable, almost water proof and hard to over sand. It was much cheaper then the 20 some odd layers that were suggested by others and easier for a novice like myself to use. Here are the before images right after the paint job finished a couple months ago:
I finished the polishing process on one of the speakers last night. Took about 12hrs to completely sand and polish that single speaker. The tools I will be using is, 2000p sand paper, a rubber sanding block, Farecla G3, some terry cloths and 3M's car polish for dark finishes.
I'm going to be wet sanding so I want to make sure I don't get any water near the drivers. I also don't want to ruin the finish on the front of the speakers.
I decided to test the process on the back of the speaker first just in case. I'm going to sand it down a little and then try polishing it to see how the results come out.
Left 1/2 sanded, right 1/2 sanded and semi-polished. Just to give you and idea of the pre and post results. This isn't fully polished, just a couple layers of the cutting fluid.
All of the sanding and polishing I'm doing by hand.
Almost done, just need the final layer of car polish.
You can tell from the side of the speakers that the image is really blurry, I don't have a tripod and I suck at taking pictures. However I can tell you that the speakers are actually more reflective and clearer then what the picture denotes. The shaking blurs the reflection but it'll have to do till I can borrow a tripod from a friend.
Here is a side by side with my unpolished left speaker. Just to give you an idea of the before and after. I really couldn't be happier with the results. It took about 12hrs to do one speaker, but it was worth the effort.
Thanks a ton for all the advice, this guide really inspired me to do something I've never done before.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I finished the polishing process on one of the speakers last night. Took about 12hrs to completely sand and polish that single speaker. The tools I will be using is, 2000p sand paper, a rubber sanding block, Farecla G3, some terry cloths and 3M's car polish for dark finishes.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I'm going to be wet sanding so I want to make sure I don't get any water near the drivers. I also don't want to ruin the finish on the front of the speakers.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I decided to test the process on the back of the speaker first just in case. I'm going to sand it down a little and then try polishing it to see how the results come out.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Left 1/2 sanded, right 1/2 sanded and semi-polished. Just to give you and idea of the pre and post results. This isn't fully polished, just a couple layers of the cutting fluid.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
All of the sanding and polishing I'm doing by hand.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Almost done, just need the final layer of car polish.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
You can tell from the side of the speakers that the image is really blurry, I don't have a tripod and I suck at taking pictures. However I can tell you that the speakers are actually more reflective and clearer then what the picture denotes. The shaking blurs the reflection but it'll have to do till I can borrow a tripod from a friend.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here is a side by side with my unpolished left speaker. Just to give you an idea of the before and after. I really couldn't be happier with the results. It took about 12hrs to do one speaker, but it was worth the effort.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Thanks a ton for all the advice, this guide really inspired me to do something I've never done before.
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KareFace,
"The shaking blurs the reflection"-------> Decafe <------
I've read that others have had great sucess with clawlock, I have not used it and I'm glad it worked out so well for you.
Superb job, congratulations on you fine looking speakers. It truly is a labor of love and the results are worth the effort when done properly as you did.
Thanks for the picture history.
Camera Tip~ turn the ISO speed of the camera to 400 or higher. It will help with the blurring of the photos.
Ron
"The shaking blurs the reflection"-------> Decafe <------
I've read that others have had great sucess with clawlock, I have not used it and I'm glad it worked out so well for you.
Superb job, congratulations on you fine looking speakers. It truly is a labor of love and the results are worth the effort when done properly as you did.
Thanks for the picture history.
Camera Tip~ turn the ISO speed of the camera to 400 or higher. It will help with the blurring of the photos.
Ron
The forum has a search function. You can quickly gets tons of information without corrupting the topic of this thread.
Kodemma,
OK, I've read all your posts on this forum, not just this thread, which has the majority of your posts. You really need to read and have some understanding of the subject before you post questions.
A good example is the above question you asked, you asked it in the wrong thread! That thread was about "favorite threads and posts in loudspeakers",
not about how to get help in designing speakers and crossovers (XO)
Not being mean, I'm going to help you out with our group, but you have to do your homework first. The people on this Forum are extremely knowledgeable and willing to help ANYONE with any part of building home stereo / home theater equipment. Here's the catch or gotcha; you MUST know where and how to ask your questions. What's that mean?
Must know where to ask your question; This thread is about how to obtain a "High Gloss Piano Black" finish on your speakers. Period. It's not about subwoofers / amplifiers / crossovers / projectors or any other topic.
Must know how to ask; If you have no background knowledge in electronics (like me, a dumbass) then don't ask "How do I build a tube preamp?". You won't get an answer, not a polite one anyway.
As stated earlier, use the search function it has been updated and works better than before.
If you want to learn about XO design (crossover design) then go to this Forum: Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers.
Multi-Way - diyAudio or here for software discussions: Software Tools - diyAudio
Use the search button and enter the name of your woofer and hit search.
If you are lucky you will find that someone has already used your tweeter with that woofer and just use their XO design. OR, study their XO and see if you can design a better one.
If you want to learn and design your own XO then here is a good website to start with.
When you learn all that you need to know then there are many good free XO design software programs on the web. Use Google.
There is a very steep learning curve with XO design, as it's as much an art as a science. Good luck and I hope you succeeded.
Sorry for going off topic on this thread, but I think I'm preventing future off topic posts here. Trying to help out a noob.
Ron
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Kodemma,
As you're a fast learner, I'll give you some advice and can expect that it won't need repeating.
First of all you need to find a thread that is concerned with crossover design or start your own thread on that subject. It's considered rude to jump into an existing thread with requests that are not in anyway connected to the main topic.
Second, the use of spell check along with the use correct grammar and capitalization really help. The reason that these are important is that it serves to clarify the point of what you're trying to get across as well as showing respect for those whom you wish to respond. I'm perhaps one of the worst spellers in the world, so I am forced to check and recheck my spelling, out of respect for myself and others.
Third, and I hesitate to actually give an answer to this, you can learn a great deal by reading the various threads dealing with crossovers. I will tell you something that many don't seem to realize at the beginning: It's not easy to learn crossover design and there is always a lot more to learn. I'm not trying to discourage you, but reading a few books will only prepare you to begin a long journey towards understanding, but it can be an enjoyable undertaking if you're willing to attempt it.
Best Regards,
TerryO
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