http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/jan/31/microsoft.technology
My take is that ASIO is dead under Vista and that if you switch to Vista you should be prepared to wait for proper WaveRT drivers to get released for your sound card.
You can continue to run ASIO, but it will likely be running through waveRT drivers anyways. So no benefit to ASIO anymore.
Also, my whole audio solution relies on VST and ASIO to work. Even if glitch-free waveRT drivers were put out for RME cards, my software doesn't speak the new Microsoft API's.
My take is that ASIO is dead under Vista and that if you switch to Vista you should be prepared to wait for proper WaveRT drivers to get released for your sound card.
You can continue to run ASIO, but it will likely be running through waveRT drivers anyways. So no benefit to ASIO anymore.
Also, my whole audio solution relies on VST and ASIO to work. Even if glitch-free waveRT drivers were put out for RME cards, my software doesn't speak the new Microsoft API's.
Honestly? Where did you hear that? The widespread availability of ASIO drivers for Vista implies otherwise.
Again, where did you hear that? ASIO doesn't make use of any of the parts of the Windows sound system, so it's not going to subverted by whatever new audio model Vista is using. It's entirely separate.
As for there being no advantage to ASIO anymore, that's a bit shortsighted. The new Windows audio system may have some/most/all of the features of ASIO, but it's going to have to prove itself before people start using it. Also, since ASIO does things perfectly well as it is, it seems unlikely that the big pro-audio software vendors (Steinberg, Cakewalk, etc) are going to switch over to it - because what's the point? So, you're still going to need ASIO drivers if you want to use any of their software for the forseeable future.
There's also the problem that there's simply no reason for the average ASIO user to move over to Vista. Indeed, there seem to be many reasons for them not to.
I don't think ASIO is going anywhere soon.
Hi Wingfeather
Isn't the Vista audio stack running on a lower level than ASIO? So all users are forced to use some native Vista API's. ASIO just run on top of them. However the stack is more expansive than previoulsy in XP and could potentially replace ASIO (see the link to the Video I posted earlier).
Isn't the Vista audio stack running on a lower level than ASIO? So all users are forced to use some native Vista API's. ASIO just run on top of them. However the stack is more expansive than previoulsy in XP and could potentially replace ASIO (see the link to the Video I posted earlier).
Disclaimer: I'm not an computer audio programmer, so take everything I say with a pinch of salt.
My understanding is that ASIO works on a level equivalent to the WaveRT box on the whiteboard in that video. ASIO itself is an API presented to the application directly by the device driver. The application will pass a buffer full of audio to the driver via this API, and that will then put the audio into the hardware.
On XP, when a sound card is being accessed by its ASIO driver, none of the Windows APIs (like DSound) can do anything with it, because there's a thread already in control of the hardware. There's no mechanism to combine them, because they share no code. I think it's the same in Vista.
My understanding is that ASIO works on a level equivalent to the WaveRT box on the whiteboard in that video. ASIO itself is an API presented to the application directly by the device driver. The application will pass a buffer full of audio to the driver via this API, and that will then put the audio into the hardware.
On XP, when a sound card is being accessed by its ASIO driver, none of the Windows APIs (like DSound) can do anything with it, because there's a thread already in control of the hardware. There's no mechanism to combine them, because they share no code. I think it's the same in Vista.
Under Windows XP, ASIO allowed you to bypass Windows audio processing.
It's my understanding that WDM, DirectSound, ASIO must pass through Windows audio layer now under Vista. There's a new underlying sound system and for compatibility it is used for everything.
(Wish I had a reference to a page I was reading about this)
The ASIO API's are still useable, of course, but your sound may be passing through the new waveRT style drivers.
I'm reading that Vista interferes with High Definition content video and am wondering if the DRM layers operate on audio as well.
I could easily see some misguided DRM software running at low levels in the sound system seeing me playing a SACD or DVD-Audio derived content and stopping me.
It's my understanding that WDM, DirectSound, ASIO must pass through Windows audio layer now under Vista. There's a new underlying sound system and for compatibility it is used for everything.
(Wish I had a reference to a page I was reading about this)
The ASIO API's are still useable, of course, but your sound may be passing through the new waveRT style drivers.
I'm reading that Vista interferes with High Definition content video and am wondering if the DRM layers operate on audio as well.
I could easily see some misguided DRM software running at low levels in the sound system seeing me playing a SACD or DVD-Audio derived content and stopping me.
There's a lot of discussion on 'Vista for audio'.
Take a look on the pro/studio audio forums. Doesn't look good. The crux of the issue is Vista prevents hardware directly communicating with drivers, be that for graphics, sound or whatever. Its one of the reasons why, for some pre Vista hardware, its impossible for the manufacturer to write drivers. Just look at Creative and the X-fi series of cards which featured hardware of acceleration of gaming audio such 3d positioning and environmental effects. They had to go and write a software layer that sits in memory and provides a bus between the game, vista, the drivers and the hardware. This fudged effort works but the whole idea of hardware acceleration hits a bottleneck - software.
At least there's no sample rate conversion like there was in XP when using the included mixer but there's other problems like the one above.
As a compromise I use XP on my audio processing box but Vista on the main system which is the playback.
I could put XP back on the main machine but I don't expect much if any increase in quality. I have XP ASIO where I need it - on the PCXO box.
Take a look on the pro/studio audio forums. Doesn't look good. The crux of the issue is Vista prevents hardware directly communicating with drivers, be that for graphics, sound or whatever. Its one of the reasons why, for some pre Vista hardware, its impossible for the manufacturer to write drivers. Just look at Creative and the X-fi series of cards which featured hardware of acceleration of gaming audio such 3d positioning and environmental effects. They had to go and write a software layer that sits in memory and provides a bus between the game, vista, the drivers and the hardware. This fudged effort works but the whole idea of hardware acceleration hits a bottleneck - software.
At least there's no sample rate conversion like there was in XP when using the included mixer but there's other problems like the one above.
As a compromise I use XP on my audio processing box but Vista on the main system which is the playback.
I could put XP back on the main machine but I don't expect much if any increase in quality. I have XP ASIO where I need it - on the PCXO box.
In order to enforce its crummy DRM paranoia, Vista is going to make life a lot more difficult for those who seek quality audio. First objective of Vista is not better user experience, it is before all other things "YOU SHALT NOT HANDLE, LOOK AT, TOUCH, OR EVEN SMELL FROM AFAR THE HOLY PREMIUM CONTENT".
This is pure C*R*A*P as far as I'm concerned and it poses lots of problems for driver developers since it makes stuff like ASIO essentially heretic and, hence, excommuniated by the RIAA lackeys.
Essentially since anything in userspace cannot touch the HOLY PREMIUM CONTENT (ie. any audio) anymore, the poor coders at Creative had to implement their driver as two parts communicating through the OS ; a "trusted" part which actually handles the audio processing, and an "untrusted" part which tells the "trusted part" what to do.
So for instance if you want to route your audio through whatever processing plugin as you would do with ASIO, you need this plugin to be anointed by Microsoft and the RIAA (and possibly others) and code-signed and whatnot (which costs $$$ and will make you bleed through your rear when you wanna upgrade it) plus you need some form of interprocess communication to tell the plugin what it should do from your userspace jail.
Obviously, considering that, YOU (as opposed to Big Corporate) are now kicked out of the loop since your code will never get anointed by the big boys, and therefore Vista = death of small business computer audio.
For instance Wavelength Audio makes a nice USB asynchronous DAC which solves the USB jitter problem ; under Vista this is DEAD since they would need to get their drivers WHQL-certified and whatnot. Also an interface like I'm developing now would never get certified since it allows access to I²S (which is exactly its purpose !) so possible ripping of PREMIUM CONTENT which is forbidden.
Strangely, the idea that anyone with basic knowledge of electronics and an internet connection can rip I²S (or even DSD) by putting wires inside a CD/DVD-A/SACD player, transfer it to the computer and torrent it doesn't seem to trouble those idiots.
Obviously, the conclusion that anyone working with professional quality "PREMIUM CONTENT" (ie audio) and with a still functional brain will make is that they will buy a Mac and be done with it.
There is also Linux and Jack.
Hopefully Microsoft will realize this (but my hopes are small).
This is pure C*R*A*P as far as I'm concerned and it poses lots of problems for driver developers since it makes stuff like ASIO essentially heretic and, hence, excommuniated by the RIAA lackeys.
Essentially since anything in userspace cannot touch the HOLY PREMIUM CONTENT (ie. any audio) anymore, the poor coders at Creative had to implement their driver as two parts communicating through the OS ; a "trusted" part which actually handles the audio processing, and an "untrusted" part which tells the "trusted part" what to do.
So for instance if you want to route your audio through whatever processing plugin as you would do with ASIO, you need this plugin to be anointed by Microsoft and the RIAA (and possibly others) and code-signed and whatnot (which costs $$$ and will make you bleed through your rear when you wanna upgrade it) plus you need some form of interprocess communication to tell the plugin what it should do from your userspace jail.
Obviously, considering that, YOU (as opposed to Big Corporate) are now kicked out of the loop since your code will never get anointed by the big boys, and therefore Vista = death of small business computer audio.
For instance Wavelength Audio makes a nice USB asynchronous DAC which solves the USB jitter problem ; under Vista this is DEAD since they would need to get their drivers WHQL-certified and whatnot. Also an interface like I'm developing now would never get certified since it allows access to I²S (which is exactly its purpose !) so possible ripping of PREMIUM CONTENT which is forbidden.
Strangely, the idea that anyone with basic knowledge of electronics and an internet connection can rip I²S (or even DSD) by putting wires inside a CD/DVD-A/SACD player, transfer it to the computer and torrent it doesn't seem to trouble those idiots.
Obviously, the conclusion that anyone working with professional quality "PREMIUM CONTENT" (ie audio) and with a still functional brain will make is that they will buy a Mac and be done with it.
There is also Linux and Jack.
Hopefully Microsoft will realize this (but my hopes are small).
Hi guys.
I have a bunch of questions collected over a few months and it seems that this forum and this thread is the place to ask.
I am using Acourate for generating filters, played through the Slimdevices Transporter to the stereo hifi with a lot of success.
However now that I am hooked I would like to move to a 3 or 4-way (if subwoofer added) digital crossover. My speakers are 3-way.
So far I think that RME products would fit, more precisely:
RME Fireface 800
or
RME sound card + ADI-8 QS
or
RME sound card + analog out extension cards.
Is this second combination worth it, being the most expensive?
Which RME sound card is a best buy that can be connected to the ADI-8 QS? (MADI, ADAT...so many choices)
All I need is to convolve 6-8 channels, digital or analog, depending on the amps.
What about the volume control? I was planning like Tact M2150 + 2x S2150 in slave mode, so that M is controlling the global volume, is such a thing possible?
There lies the last question, what about the amps?
I would like them not to spend a lot of power on idle and not to suck of course.
I was planning to go Tact for digital or Bryston 875HT if chosen analog but then the volume issue remains.
Thanks.
I have a bunch of questions collected over a few months and it seems that this forum and this thread is the place to ask.
I am using Acourate for generating filters, played through the Slimdevices Transporter to the stereo hifi with a lot of success.
However now that I am hooked I would like to move to a 3 or 4-way (if subwoofer added) digital crossover. My speakers are 3-way.
So far I think that RME products would fit, more precisely:
RME Fireface 800
or
RME sound card + ADI-8 QS
or
RME sound card + analog out extension cards.
Is this second combination worth it, being the most expensive?
Which RME sound card is a best buy that can be connected to the ADI-8 QS? (MADI, ADAT...so many choices)
All I need is to convolve 6-8 channels, digital or analog, depending on the amps.
What about the volume control? I was planning like Tact M2150 + 2x S2150 in slave mode, so that M is controlling the global volume, is such a thing possible?
There lies the last question, what about the amps?
I would like them not to spend a lot of power on idle and not to suck of course.
I was planning to go Tact for digital or Bryston 875HT if chosen analog but then the volume issue remains.
Thanks.
Dino,
I can report best results with the TacT amps (are they still available?). It is not necessary to have a M2150 included as it is possible to load the M2150 firmware onto a S2150, to disable the non-existent volume wheel in the amp menu and to use then the remote control for all three S2150. So it is just a question of taste and money.
If you run TacT amps the easiest way is to have a RME AES-32 soundcard. No problem with samplerate switching in comparison to ADAT (which needs two channels for samplerates higher 48 kHz). You can even go up to 192 kHz with the AES32.
The ADI-8 QS is a good choice. Here the AES32 is also perfect. Of course then you need analog amplifiers. Please nte that in case of the ADI-8 QS you also get a remote control that allows you to control the global output level for all 8 analog DAC channels.
This means that your volume issue is solved then (of course you have to adjust the analog amps first and maybe then to fix the amp volume by glue
)
I can report best results with the TacT amps (are they still available?). It is not necessary to have a M2150 included as it is possible to load the M2150 firmware onto a S2150, to disable the non-existent volume wheel in the amp menu and to use then the remote control for all three S2150. So it is just a question of taste and money.
If you run TacT amps the easiest way is to have a RME AES-32 soundcard. No problem with samplerate switching in comparison to ADAT (which needs two channels for samplerates higher 48 kHz). You can even go up to 192 kHz with the AES32.
The ADI-8 QS is a good choice. Here the AES32 is also perfect. Of course then you need analog amplifiers. Please nte that in case of the ADI-8 QS you also get a remote control that allows you to control the global output level for all 8 analog DAC channels.
This means that your volume issue is solved then (of course you have to adjust the analog amps first and maybe then to fix the amp volume by glue
)So directly AES32 to the amps seems best. I guess I missed it because it needs 2 breakout cables for the 8 digital outputs, which was exactly what I needed. And when you look at it as a noob it almost looks like printer ports
Since ADI-8 QS costs at least as one Tact amp, which are still available, then it is not worth it.
It sure would be great to compare analog (DA) versus digital (PWM) side by side but I guess the only difference might be in the HF.
Thanks Uli, I'll be sure to try this one unless someone releases newer production 8ch digital amp which does not cost $10-15k like Boz or Lyngdorf.
Since ADI-8 QS costs at least as one Tact amp, which are still available
, then it is not worth it.It sure would be great to compare analog (DA) versus digital (PWM) side by side but I guess the only difference might be in the HF.
Thanks Uli, I'll be sure to try this one unless someone releases newer production 8ch digital amp which does not cost $10-15k like Boz or Lyngdorf.
Has anyone had troubles with soundcard clicks + pops etc using your main PC (under load) as the XO? What protection measures can one take for the drivers? I'm looking into Panasonic digital amps (XR-700), would the volume control on that limit potential pops?
For those using RME cards, do you use it's internal volume control? Will it pass pops to the amplifiers?
A dedicated box would be ideal but for financial and latency reasons I may not be able to do this.
Ta
For those using RME cards, do you use it's internal volume control? Will it pass pops to the amplifiers?
A dedicated box would be ideal but for financial and latency reasons I may not be able to do this.
Ta
You can try increasing the ASIO buffer but this in turn increases latency.
Real solution is more processor cycles or farm out the PCXO to a dedicated box.
Anything else is unpredictable and a band aid at best. But since were talking about ASIO, remember that the pop's and clicks will only be as load as your master volume control. So whilst they may be annoying, they won't destroy your drivers unless you turn it up.
Real solution is more processor cycles or farm out the PCXO to a dedicated box.
Anything else is unpredictable and a band aid at best. But since were talking about ASIO, remember that the pop's and clicks will only be as load as your master volume control. So whilst they may be annoying, they won't destroy your drivers unless you turn it up.
A long and informative read - thanks, everybody!
I just got a Lynx AES16 with XLR breakout cable for $400 on eBay, and will be running it to a three channel digital amp on each front, and a four channel running a two-way center and passive rears. Both amps and speakers are a couple of months away, though.
Without having tried it, I think I'll be going for a FIR setup for two-channel listening, and use Thuneau's IIR for multi-channel (DVD and such). I'll also be using a different DRC setting for stereo and multi-channel, as I'll move my couch back about a meter when listening to music.
I'm really looking forward to exploring this first hand!
I just got a Lynx AES16 with XLR breakout cable for $400 on eBay, and will be running it to a three channel digital amp on each front, and a four channel running a two-way center and passive rears. Both amps and speakers are a couple of months away, though.
Without having tried it, I think I'll be going for a FIR setup for two-channel listening, and use Thuneau's IIR for multi-channel (DVD and such). I'll also be using a different DRC setting for stereo and multi-channel, as I'll move my couch back about a meter when listening to music.
I'm really looking forward to exploring this first hand!
ShinOBIWAN said:
Here's some new development that may interest you.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127520
Check the end of the thread for latest.
Is there any way to have hardware protection between the amp and the drivers?
Thanks
Thanks for the link. Doesn't seem applicable for me right now, with the LPCM and HDMI, but definitely worth keeping an eye on.
I'll keep you up to date on my progress - I'll be using these speakers, slightly evolved.
I'll keep you up to date on my progress - I'll be using these speakers, slightly evolved.
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