Actually the beauty of the system proposed by Shinowiban using Console is that whatever sound source you are using whether internal to the PC or external sources can take advantage of XO's and Room Correction.
It was before I came across this thread that I was limited to foobar, since I only knew about the convolver and crossover foobar plug-ins. Foobar is still my favourite music player on the PC. I no longer need to use it's convolver, etc, though and I'm no longer limited to Foobar as a sound source.
Hope it helps
Geoff
It was before I came across this thread that I was limited to foobar, since I only knew about the convolver and crossover foobar plug-ins. Foobar is still my favourite music player on the PC. I no longer need to use it's convolver, etc, though and I'm no longer limited to Foobar as a sound source.
Hope it helps
Geoff
Shin/Ed:
I'm going to give the PC XO thing another shot, probably with linux this time. I'm curious, how do you guys cope with the delay the PC XO causes with respect to any video being played? I will be using my PC XO as an in-line XO/DRC unit, so it will only be processing external inputs and not playing back from the unit itself. I plan to run all of my audio through it including TV from a cable box and DVDs from a DVD player, what method can I use to make sure the video and audio are in sync?
I'm going to give the PC XO thing another shot, probably with linux this time. I'm curious, how do you guys cope with the delay the PC XO causes with respect to any video being played? I will be using my PC XO as an in-line XO/DRC unit, so it will only be processing external inputs and not playing back from the unit itself. I plan to run all of my audio through it including TV from a cable box and DVDs from a DVD player, what method can I use to make sure the video and audio are in sync?
Hi motion
The delay thing is unadavoidable when using using external video sources such as VCR, DVD, Xbox, TV etc.
There's a few option:
First off is an external video time shift box. I've got around 75ms delay using Waves LineEQ and Voxengo which is a lot when you start watching/listening to TV because the lip sync is slightly off. But with a video time shift box you can sync external sources back to the processed audio. Some plasma/lcd screens and highend projectors have a similar gadget built in but for the audio delay because of all the processing time required for the video such as upscaling, deinterlacing etc.
I have no idea how much they cost or where to get one from but I should imagine they are pretty easy to comeby in the broadcasting market, where they will primarily be used.
My solution is to use the PC as the source with Theatertek and Zoomplayer Pro used for DVD's, HiDef material and general video. And I've also got a Blackgold digital TV card installed. All these have lipsync options to delay the video by a certain amount. So for me everything is perfect.
For audio only the delay doesn't matter.
The other option is to use standard IIR digital filters and DRC which will get you around 15-20ms delay at the very most. With that you don't need any sync options because the delay isn't detectable even when watching someones mouth closely on a movie or TV.
Its the FIR filters that cause the big delay of around 60ms
But you've got a few options to jump that hurdle if you so choose.
The delay thing is unadavoidable when using using external video sources such as VCR, DVD, Xbox, TV etc.
There's a few option:
First off is an external video time shift box. I've got around 75ms delay using Waves LineEQ and Voxengo which is a lot when you start watching/listening to TV because the lip sync is slightly off. But with a video time shift box you can sync external sources back to the processed audio. Some plasma/lcd screens and highend projectors have a similar gadget built in but for the audio delay because of all the processing time required for the video such as upscaling, deinterlacing etc.
I have no idea how much they cost or where to get one from but I should imagine they are pretty easy to comeby in the broadcasting market, where they will primarily be used.
My solution is to use the PC as the source with Theatertek and Zoomplayer Pro used for DVD's, HiDef material and general video. And I've also got a Blackgold digital TV card installed. All these have lipsync options to delay the video by a certain amount. So for me everything is perfect.
For audio only the delay doesn't matter.
The other option is to use standard IIR digital filters and DRC which will get you around 15-20ms delay at the very most. With that you don't need any sync options because the delay isn't detectable even when watching someones mouth closely on a movie or TV.
Its the FIR filters that cause the big delay of around 60ms
But you've got a few options to jump that hurdle if you so choose.
Well I'm all confused again now
It appears that the console method sucks pretty badly....
I've just taken my drivers out of the cabinet again and was playing with console/Wave LineEQ along with the ATC bass driver in free air. There's a ton of distortion evident, I really don't know why I didn't hear it before but a good guess would be that the bass frequencies are now lowered to much greater extent and the crossover point becomes much more audible.
The distortion actually sounds like a mechanical fault on a damaged driver ie. buzzing at moderate to loud levels and also resonances. The details at the time of testing was an XO frequency of 430hz with a Q of 6.5 using LineEQ broadband mono.
I've also tried Algoritmix Orange and Red PEQ's, Waves C4, Waves Parameteric EQ and Voxengo Curve EQ. All display the same trait.
Its been driving me crazy since yesterday and I've checked and triple checked all outputs/inputs for clipping and even lowered them just to be sure - the problem is still evident.
I'm wondering if its the fireface doing this? It sounds fine on full range material passed through the ATC but it could be that the problems are being masked with the overall wash of a full range signal. If you turn the XO back on, its very clear to hear the problems even at moderate levels and extremely obvious at high ones.
I've been through several other woofers and all display the same problems so its not a blown driver as I originally thought it could be. After narrowing it down its definitely a problem somewhere within the audio processing. Possibilities are console itself, the EQ software used to create the filters - doubtful since so many show the same problem or it could be the fireface/RME drivers?
Can anyone else try out a similar situation and let me know if this is a problem related to my setup or if there is an inherant weakness in the whole Console XO/DRC setup?
I'm going to try removing Console from the loop by using AdaptX (a plugin client for winamp) tommorow. I also plan to try using foobar with BruteFIR and generating my own filters.
Thanks for any help or advice offered
It appears that the console method sucks pretty badly....
I've just taken my drivers out of the cabinet again and was playing with console/Wave LineEQ along with the ATC bass driver in free air. There's a ton of distortion evident, I really don't know why I didn't hear it before but a good guess would be that the bass frequencies are now lowered to much greater extent and the crossover point becomes much more audible.
The distortion actually sounds like a mechanical fault on a damaged driver ie. buzzing at moderate to loud levels and also resonances. The details at the time of testing was an XO frequency of 430hz with a Q of 6.5 using LineEQ broadband mono.
I've also tried Algoritmix Orange and Red PEQ's, Waves C4, Waves Parameteric EQ and Voxengo Curve EQ. All display the same trait.
Its been driving me crazy since yesterday and I've checked and triple checked all outputs/inputs for clipping and even lowered them just to be sure - the problem is still evident.
I'm wondering if its the fireface doing this? It sounds fine on full range material passed through the ATC but it could be that the problems are being masked with the overall wash of a full range signal. If you turn the XO back on, its very clear to hear the problems even at moderate levels and extremely obvious at high ones.
I've been through several other woofers and all display the same problems so its not a blown driver as I originally thought it could be. After narrowing it down its definitely a problem somewhere within the audio processing. Possibilities are console itself, the EQ software used to create the filters - doubtful since so many show the same problem or it could be the fireface/RME drivers?
Can anyone else try out a similar situation and let me know if this is a problem related to my setup or if there is an inherant weakness in the whole Console XO/DRC setup?
I'm going to try removing Console from the loop by using AdaptX (a plugin client for winamp) tommorow. I also plan to try using foobar with BruteFIR and generating my own filters.
Thanks for any help or advice offered
Hi ShinOBIWAN,
I'm not sure if you are doing linear phase crossovers, but if that is the case, I could hear the ringing inherent to them when listening to a single way, particularly the bass driver, without the others.
It is like an added buzz at the crossover frequency. When listening to the whole speaker it cancels with the next driver "inverted ring" and becomes inaudible.
Is this similar with what you notice in your setup?
I'm not sure if you are doing linear phase crossovers, but if that is the case, I could hear the ringing inherent to them when listening to a single way, particularly the bass driver, without the others.
It is like an added buzz at the crossover frequency. When listening to the whole speaker it cancels with the next driver "inverted ring" and becomes inaudible.
Is this similar with what you notice in your setup?
I think RR is likely correct on this. I don't see that it could be a driver or hardware issue. It could be the XO software you're using. I don't see it being console...it doesn't know or care what sound you're passing through its plugins. If it's just ringing filters, I don't know that you'll be able to solve it for a single driver in free space. But...do you need to?
I was having a bit of a scare yesterday listening to a nice choral recording when I heard a nasty crackling like clipping in the midrange during one of the loudest passages. Except that my midrange is a compression driver which should be able to blast through the passage without any difficulty. And when I turned the overall volume down, the problem didn't go away. The culprit? It turns out somehow Replaygain had been turned back on in foobar2000, and the +6dB or so it was adding to the track was causing clipping in foobar's output. Yech. Replaygain is mmmbad.
I was having a bit of a scare yesterday listening to a nice choral recording when I heard a nasty crackling like clipping in the midrange during one of the loudest passages. Except that my midrange is a compression driver which should be able to blast through the passage without any difficulty. And when I turned the overall volume down, the problem didn't go away. The culprit? It turns out somehow Replaygain had been turned back on in foobar2000, and the +6dB or so it was adding to the track was causing clipping in foobar's output. Yech. Replaygain is mmmbad.
Thanks for the suggestions and comments.
Still working through the problem and trying alternatives. If there's any other idea's folks have please let me know.
I've narrowed a couple of things down such as the fact that its not Console as winamp with adaptx running Waves LineEQ also exhibits the same behaviour. As well as this I've tried foobar to make sure the player isn't causing trouble and its not BTW. I've tried Wave and ASIO output both exhibit the same behaviour, so not a problem there either.
I've also tried physically routing the signal rather than using the loopback on the RME fireface just incase that was causing the trouble - no change.
Also checked the levels and clipping many times and all seem to be fine. Its worth noting that the distortion I'm talking about sounds very much like a type of clipping distortion ie. distorted and resonant sound with digital like 'poping/cracking' noising which are apparent at all volume levels but only really noticable from the listening position at high volume level's.
Another observation is that the distortion definitely seems to get progressively worse the lower down the frequency scale you go when selecting a crossover point, for example at 400hz its very audible but at 6Khz its sounds fairly normal. Again I'm not sure if there's masking going on here.
So narrowing it down, one possibility is the plugins I'm using - but why does Waves C4 which is an IIR based filter still exhibit the same distortion if its pre-echo artifacts? Not to mention the fact I've tried Algorthmix Orange & Red PEQ's and Voxengo Curve EQ.
Another possibility is the RME fireface itself and any related drivers. I've not 100% assured myself that, whilst playing a fullrange signal with no digital XO or DRC taking place, there isn't any distortion taking place, if it is then I can't hear because of the fact that there's so much going on. So if there is distortion its not obvious with a full range signal.
I've come to the conclusion that its actually so audible that it must have been taking away something from the sound even when running a full multiway speaker. I'll try to capture the sound and post it on here for other to hear as that would tell far more than a few paragraphs could.
Started pricing up a DEQX just in case this doesn't work out
Still working through the problem and trying alternatives. If there's any other idea's folks have please let me know.
I've narrowed a couple of things down such as the fact that its not Console as winamp with adaptx running Waves LineEQ also exhibits the same behaviour. As well as this I've tried foobar to make sure the player isn't causing trouble and its not BTW. I've tried Wave and ASIO output both exhibit the same behaviour, so not a problem there either.
I've also tried physically routing the signal rather than using the loopback on the RME fireface just incase that was causing the trouble - no change.
Also checked the levels and clipping many times and all seem to be fine. Its worth noting that the distortion I'm talking about sounds very much like a type of clipping distortion ie. distorted and resonant sound with digital like 'poping/cracking' noising which are apparent at all volume levels but only really noticable from the listening position at high volume level's.
Another observation is that the distortion definitely seems to get progressively worse the lower down the frequency scale you go when selecting a crossover point, for example at 400hz its very audible but at 6Khz its sounds fairly normal. Again I'm not sure if there's masking going on here.
So narrowing it down, one possibility is the plugins I'm using - but why does Waves C4 which is an IIR based filter still exhibit the same distortion if its pre-echo artifacts? Not to mention the fact I've tried Algorthmix Orange & Red PEQ's and Voxengo Curve EQ.
Another possibility is the RME fireface itself and any related drivers. I've not 100% assured myself that, whilst playing a fullrange signal with no digital XO or DRC taking place, there isn't any distortion taking place, if it is then I can't hear because of the fact that there's so much going on. So if there is distortion its not obvious with a full range signal.
I've come to the conclusion that its actually so audible that it must have been taking away something from the sound even when running a full multiway speaker. I'll try to capture the sound and post it on here for other to hear as that would tell far more than a few paragraphs could.
Started pricing up a DEQX just in case this doesn't work out
Re: Two questions and an alternative approach
cdwitmer,
just look here!
http://freerider.dyndns.org
Charly
cdwitmer said:
cdwitmer,
just look here!
http://freerider.dyndns.org
Charly
ShinOBIWAN said:Thanks for the suggestions and comments.
Still working through the problem and trying alternatives. If there's any other idea's folks have please let me know.
I've narrowed a couple of things down such as the fact that its not Console as winamp with adaptx running Waves LineEQ also exhibits the same behaviour. As well as this I've tried foobar to make sure the player isn't causing trouble and its not BTW. I've tried Wave and ASIO output both exhibit the same behaviour, so not a problem there either.
I've also tried physically routing the signal rather than using the loopback on the RME fireface just incase that was causing the trouble - no change.
Also checked the levels and clipping many times and all seem to be fine. Its worth noting that the distortion I'm talking about sounds very much like a type of clipping distortion ie. distorted and resonant sound with digital like 'poping/cracking' noising which are apparent at all volume levels but only really noticable from the listening position at high volume level's.
Another observation is that the distortion definitely seems to get progressively worse the lower down the frequency scale you go when selecting a crossover point, for example at 400hz its very audible but at 6Khz its sounds fairly normal. Again I'm not sure if there's masking going on here.
So narrowing it down, one possibility is the plugins I'm using - but why does Waves C4 which is an IIR based filter still exhibit the same distortion if its pre-echo artifacts? Not to mention the fact I've tried Algorthmix Orange & Red PEQ's and Voxengo Curve EQ.
Another possibility is the RME fireface itself and any related drivers. I've not 100% assured myself that, whilst playing a fullrange signal with no digital XO or DRC taking place, there isn't any distortion taking place, if it is then I can't hear because of the fact that there's so much going on. So if there is distortion its not obvious with a full range signal.
I've come to the conclusion that its actually so audible that it must have been taking away something from the sound even when running a full multiway speaker. I'll try to capture the sound and post it on here for other to hear as that would tell far more than a few paragraphs could.
Started pricing up a DEQX just in case this doesn't work out
I'm doing the DEQX route now, but counting on you to work out the PC as it, as you have said, should ultimately offer more. Check this thread, you might be able to stir up John Hancock and see if he can offer you the benefit of his experience: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=205552#post205552
Sheldon
Sheldon said:
Hi Sheldon,
I'm comming to the harsh reality that the PC way of doing things just isn't what I thought it was. Small things like the problem I've just discovered really get to me and it could be that its inaudible once the bass driver is mounted in a cabinet along with the rest of the drivers helping mask the problems. But for me that's like polishing a turd - there's an underlying problem.
Of course it could be just my setup and the ATC bass drivers seem really revealing in comparison to trying out a few of the other bass drivers I have lying around as they don't seem to show the problem in quite the same dramatic fashion.
I feel that one of the biggest advantages of the whole PC route just dissappeared for me. Without the XO functionality its all little more than mildly interesting. I'm comming roung to the 'stick with tried and tested' ideal. The DEQX and Tact system are just that and don't have the usual problems of crippling latency, fan noise, extra boxes such as DAC's/clocks and they actually work all day, everyday without pop's, buzzing and having to skirt around processor heavy tasks whilst performing audio processing for fear of the whole thing crashing to a halt and blowing your tweeters up. Those are the realities of going the PC route. My advice would be to stick with the DEQX, I've never heard one but I'm betting it sound a hell of a lot better than the rubbish I've got good money invested in.
Do you only hear the problem when the driver is in free air, or do you hear the problem when the driver is mounted and all other channels muted?
I have no experience with the ATC Bass driver, but I will offer a few suggestions.
1. Check Ground loops.
2. Swap out amplifiers.
3. Do you only have this problem at high signal levels, you can quickly run out of Xmax in free air.
4. Does the ATC driver have a pole piece vent, they make a lot of noise in free air.
5. Ringing of FIR filters, lower the Q of your filter, you really don't need 400db/oct. First, try a 24db/oct filter and take out convolution, and then start being more aggressive.
I would swap out crossovers, and drivers
(different brand-temporarily) to narrow it down whether it is a driver or crossover related problem
The best diagnostic tools are measurement software and an oscilloscope, they can save you a lot of time.
I actually experimented with FIR crossover before you and gave up a long time ago because of latency issues rather than SQ problems, so I am curious about this problem.
If the problem goes away when you mount the woofer I would not worry about it.
You bought the best of Pro audio gear-(Apogee, Lynx, RME, I am surprised you did not buy a benchmark), and waves is an industry standard, I really doubt it is the gear you have
I have no experience with the ATC Bass driver, but I will offer a few suggestions.
1. Check Ground loops.
2. Swap out amplifiers.
3. Do you only have this problem at high signal levels, you can quickly run out of Xmax in free air.
4. Does the ATC driver have a pole piece vent, they make a lot of noise in free air.
5. Ringing of FIR filters, lower the Q of your filter, you really don't need 400db/oct. First, try a 24db/oct filter and take out convolution, and then start being more aggressive.
I would swap out crossovers, and drivers
(different brand-temporarily) to narrow it down whether it is a driver or crossover related problem
The best diagnostic tools are measurement software and an oscilloscope, they can save you a lot of time.
I actually experimented with FIR crossover before you and gave up a long time ago because of latency issues rather than SQ problems, so I am curious about this problem.
If the problem goes away when you mount the woofer I would not worry about it.
You bought the best of Pro audio gear-(Apogee, Lynx, RME, I am surprised you did not buy a benchmark), and waves is an industry standard, I really doubt it is the gear you have
Hi and thanks for the questions, it helps to try and look at area's I've possibly overlooked.
Its when the driver is mounted in free air that is very obvious, in the cabinet you have to listen but its still there.
I assume grounding is fine, since I've got no audible hum from any drivers, including the tweeter, even if I stick my ear right up to them they are completely silent.
Or am I missing something?
Will give that a try. I have an old Technics multichannel receiver that will work fine with a minimum of fuss.
Its audible at low levels, if you stick your ear upto the driver. It does however become audible from a few meters away at moderate-high levels.
Yes it does have a vented pole piece. TBH it sounds just as bad at the cone as it does from the vent.
Tried lowering the Q/slope still partially evident but its difficult to hear thanks to it being masked by the rest of the signal. Listen hard/close enough and you can still make it out, just.
Tried a few drivers now, first up was some paradigm poly cones (free air) pulled from a CC360 speaker, then some Mission bookshelf speaker, ATC SCM7 speakers and finally the ATC SB75.234SC drivers that I was referring to in my previous posts.
Don't have an oscilloscope but do have plenty of measurement software. Will give it a go after I've tried a few more things since its a bind setting it all up again.
Would a software based oscilloscope be useful in this situation? I imagine so since where dealing with audio frequencies. And if so, what did you have in mind?
I curious about it too, not least because I've only just noticed it after all this time.... hmmm, I've swapped a lot of kit and wondering if that's introduced the problem? I don't have any of the old kit except the Apogee DAC's. May try that again too though I'm extremely doubtful it will solve anything. I could really do with my old RME cards or the Lynx back to draw any real conclusions
I can live with the quirks of the PC setup and latency but for that to happen the sound quality really does have to 100% and at the moment it isn't.
I'm extremely anal about these things though. Since I know about it now I've got to fix the problem or lessen it greatly before I'd be comfortable using it.
I'd hope the same too when you consider the cost but sadly expensive doesn't = perfect.
mbutzkies said:
Its when the driver is mounted in free air that is very obvious, in the cabinet you have to listen but its still there.
I assume grounding is fine, since I've got no audible hum from any drivers, including the tweeter, even if I stick my ear right up to them they are completely silent.
Or am I missing something?
Will give that a try. I have an old Technics multichannel receiver that will work fine with a minimum of fuss.
Its audible at low levels, if you stick your ear upto the driver. It does however become audible from a few meters away at moderate-high levels.
Yes it does have a vented pole piece. TBH it sounds just as bad at the cone as it does from the vent.
Tried lowering the Q/slope still partially evident but its difficult to hear thanks to it being masked by the rest of the signal. Listen hard/close enough and you can still make it out, just.
Tried a few drivers now, first up was some paradigm poly cones (free air) pulled from a CC360 speaker, then some Mission bookshelf speaker, ATC SCM7 speakers and finally the ATC SB75.234SC drivers that I was referring to in my previous posts.
Don't have an oscilloscope but do have plenty of measurement software. Will give it a go after I've tried a few more things since its a bind setting it all up again.
Would a software based oscilloscope be useful in this situation? I imagine so since where dealing with audio frequencies. And if so, what did you have in mind?
I curious about it too, not least because I've only just noticed it after all this time.... hmmm, I've swapped a lot of kit and wondering if that's introduced the problem? I don't have any of the old kit except the Apogee DAC's. May try that again too though I'm extremely doubtful it will solve anything. I could really do with my old RME cards or the Lynx back to draw any real conclusions
I can live with the quirks of the PC setup and latency but for that to happen the sound quality really does have to 100% and at the moment it isn't.
I'm extremely anal about these things though. Since I know about it now I've got to fix the problem or lessen it greatly before I'd be comfortable using it.
I'd hope the same too when you consider the cost but sadly expensive doesn't = perfect.
geofstro wrote:
Dear Geoff,
thank you for the reply. Unfortunately, I am still confused. The signals going "to my two channel pre-amp, which in turn feeds a separate two channel power amp" are the same as the "the two Optical S/PDIF outs [sent] to a separate Receiver for driving the Subwoofer only" or different?
Thank you,
M
Dear Geoff,
thank you for the reply. Unfortunately, I am still confused. The signals going "to my two channel pre-amp, which in turn feeds a separate two channel power amp" are the same as the "the two Optical S/PDIF outs [sent] to a separate Receiver for driving the Subwoofer only" or different?
Thank you,
M
Hi:
This is in my view typical ringing behaviour. Maybe the fact that it's more noticiable with the driver in free air means that the natural roll off of the unbaffled driver makes the non-attenuated range more evident, relatively.
Also you mentioned that the effect is more evident the more you lower the XO frequency. This is my experience also, at 150 hz. ringing is prominent, at 3000 hz. I cannot hear it at all (I'm talking about different drivers, of course).
I don't see it as a problem, as the ringing of adyacent drivers crossovered with symmetrical FIR filters has the same frequency and opposite phase, and cancels pretty perfectly on axis. Whatever may remain off axis, I fail to notice.
And, anyhow, it's better that the unavoidable off-axis cancelations in conventional crossovers that give rise to irregular off-axis responses and coloured first reflections and reverberant field. That is, compared to high slope FIR filters.
Another advantage I see is how easy becomes now to use drivers with metal or kevlar cones, and "cut" cleanly their break-up region. Although harmonic distortions in the motor may still excite the offending modes, and care has to be taken, FIR filters adds a relieving degree of freedom in the design.
So, please reconsider the real range of the problem you notice, I still see high slope FIR filters as a route to better sound, aside from being the most interesting field to experiment with.
Cheers,
Roberto
Hi mefistofelez,
I'm sorry if my explanation wasn't clear.
The EMU-1212m card which I'm currently using has stereo analogue outputs and both optical and a coaxial stereo digital outputs.
For my main left and right front speakers I use the analogue outputs. I use the method described here to start rolling the main speakers off from about 85hz downwards.
The analogue outputs feed a two channel stereo amp set-up to drive those main front left and right speakers.
I then have a separate receiver which I only use for driving the subwoofer and for the rear left and right channels for 5.1 playback.
I use the optical digital output from the EMU to feed this rerceiver which in turn drives the sub-woofer. Before the signal is sent to the optical output it also has a crossover applied using the techniques desribed in this thread, so that my sub gradually comes in starting at 85hz, reaching flat at around 38hz and staying flat from that point on down.
This weekend I downloaded the latest drivers and patchmix software from the EMU site. For the first time these allow the EMU cards to work in a multichannel set up.
I can play a multi-channel sound source on the PC and route the rear Left and Right Speakers via one digital output and the subwoofer and center channel via another and use the EMU in a full 5.1 system. Using the set-up described here if I want to I will be able to appy different crossovers and room correction for each of these channels. (Note you must select Direct Sound as your output in your DVD player, or whatever, software, for this to work.)
The EMU cards are now looking like better value than ever. Having added this multi-channel capability. I recently read a report that concluded they virtually sound identical to the equivalent lynx cards at a fraction of their cost. I believe they use the same converters as Lynx.
I'm tempted to upgrade to the 1820m as this would give me more analogue outputs, so I wouldn't be forced to use the digital outs for Rear L/R + Sub/Center channel. I would also have more inputs.
If you can get your head around the Patchmix software I think the EMU must be about the best deal out there at the moment.
Hope it helps
Geoff
I'm sorry if my explanation wasn't clear.
The EMU-1212m card which I'm currently using has stereo analogue outputs and both optical and a coaxial stereo digital outputs.
For my main left and right front speakers I use the analogue outputs. I use the method described here to start rolling the main speakers off from about 85hz downwards.
The analogue outputs feed a two channel stereo amp set-up to drive those main front left and right speakers.
I then have a separate receiver which I only use for driving the subwoofer and for the rear left and right channels for 5.1 playback.
I use the optical digital output from the EMU to feed this rerceiver which in turn drives the sub-woofer. Before the signal is sent to the optical output it also has a crossover applied using the techniques desribed in this thread, so that my sub gradually comes in starting at 85hz, reaching flat at around 38hz and staying flat from that point on down.
This weekend I downloaded the latest drivers and patchmix software from the EMU site. For the first time these allow the EMU cards to work in a multichannel set up.
I can play a multi-channel sound source on the PC and route the rear Left and Right Speakers via one digital output and the subwoofer and center channel via another and use the EMU in a full 5.1 system. Using the set-up described here if I want to I will be able to appy different crossovers and room correction for each of these channels. (Note you must select Direct Sound as your output in your DVD player, or whatever, software, for this to work.)
The EMU cards are now looking like better value than ever. Having added this multi-channel capability. I recently read a report that concluded they virtually sound identical to the equivalent lynx cards at a fraction of their cost. I believe they use the same converters as Lynx.
I'm tempted to upgrade to the 1820m as this would give me more analogue outputs, so I wouldn't be forced to use the digital outs for Rear L/R + Sub/Center channel. I would also have more inputs.
If you can get your head around the Patchmix software I think the EMU must be about the best deal out there at the moment.
Hope it helps
Geoff
Shinowiban,
I know I'm just a lowly novice at this and just using the free LPEQ plug-in for XO's. However, this morning I tired creating a new XO which starts to roll-off the mains at around 50hz as opposed to the previous XO which started at 85hz. The result was a distortion that sounds exactly as you described. Needless to say I backed off immediately and reverted to my 85hz XO which seems to work perfectly without any noticeable distortion, even when I put my ear close to the driver.
This does seem to confirm that when it comes to bass frequencies the higher up you place your XO point the more likely you are to avoid this type of distortion.
Hope it helps.
Geoff
I know I'm just a lowly novice at this and just using the free LPEQ plug-in for XO's. However, this morning I tired creating a new XO which starts to roll-off the mains at around 50hz as opposed to the previous XO which started at 85hz. The result was a distortion that sounds exactly as you described. Needless to say I backed off immediately and reverted to my 85hz XO which seems to work perfectly without any noticeable distortion, even when I put my ear close to the driver.
This does seem to confirm that when it comes to bass frequencies the higher up you place your XO point the more likely you are to avoid this type of distortion.
Hope it helps.
Geoff
OK giving up and moving on.
The PC sure is a great way to get into DRC but as an XO I think there's better methods. The very fact that Waves and all the other EQ plugs aren't actually optimised for loudspeaker crossover duty means that they are compromised and its plainly obvious to hear with revealing drivers/situations.
So I've decided that the XO section is to be farmed out to a DEQX but I'll still do a mild DRC with the PC. I've spoken with Kim from DEQX and he's assured me that it doesn't suffer from anything like what I've described to him.
If anyone is seeking the very best quality crossover, please consider other methods besdes the PC - it sucks
The PC sure is a great way to get into DRC but as an XO I think there's better methods. The very fact that Waves and all the other EQ plugs aren't actually optimised for loudspeaker crossover duty means that they are compromised and its plainly obvious to hear with revealing drivers/situations.
So I've decided that the XO section is to be farmed out to a DEQX but I'll still do a mild DRC with the PC. I've spoken with Kim from DEQX and he's assured me that it doesn't suffer from anything like what I've described to him.
If anyone is seeking the very best quality crossover, please consider other methods besdes the PC - it sucks
Sorry to hear that....
DEQX doesn't do anything that you can't do with a PC. However, I think you are right that generating decent crossovers is not trivial.
Have you tried simply using NT crossovers as generated by the program written by Uli Brueggeman? You can get a simple program to generate these from http://www.duffroomcorrection.com and if you contact him directly via the DRC mailing list I think he will give you some advice on using it.
Good luck
DEQX doesn't do anything that you can't do with a PC. However, I think you are right that generating decent crossovers is not trivial.
Have you tried simply using NT crossovers as generated by the program written by Uli Brueggeman? You can get a simple program to generate these from http://www.duffroomcorrection.com and if you contact him directly via the DRC mailing list I think he will give you some advice on using it.
Good luck
It's hard to believe that this great thread is about to end as a fault. I've been so much interested in making PC XO, that I nearly ordered new soud card and began development of 6 chanel amp with all the features one would need.
Anyway, someone had to try this method to say that it's not the right way (Thanks ShinOBIWAN), but I'm sure that it's not so bad and maybe some new plugins would work perfectly.
So I'm looking forward to your next posts about this and new experiences with perfectly working PC XO.
Good luck guys
Regards
Robo
Anyway, someone had to try this method to say that it's not the right way (Thanks ShinOBIWAN), but I'm sure that it's not so bad and maybe some new plugins would work perfectly.
So I'm looking forward to your next posts about this and new experiences with perfectly working PC XO.
Good luck guys
Regards
Robo
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.