Hi DiYers,
After a couple of false starts, I'm trying again to do my first custom multi-way DiY project (so far, I've built one set of markaudio full range floorstanders). I have a pair or Mission 770 'Freedom' speakers and one of the woofers is bust. So, I thought it would be fun to use the cabinets to build a new and improved speaker! The cabinets are suited to a 8" + 1" 2-way setup. (Mounting holes are 188mm and 75mm diameter respectively.) The net internal volume of the cabinets (having subtracted the volume of internal bracing/reinforcements) is 33.37 litres. The diameter of the hole in the baffle for a port is 63mm.
I have been searching for a "proven" design which I could briefly simulate in unibox and then recreate for myself. But I can't find anything appropriate where the drivers are available! So, before I give up, my question is: do you know any "proven"/tested designs which might work for a cabinet like this?
My constraints/preferences are:
Although I'm on a budget, I know these things don't always come for free. If there are good speaker kits for me to look at, I'd be open to going down that route. But the idea of copying a more DiY design, putting a crossover together, etc., is more appealing to me.
Thank you in advance for any help you're able to offer!
Lewis
After a couple of false starts, I'm trying again to do my first custom multi-way DiY project (so far, I've built one set of markaudio full range floorstanders). I have a pair or Mission 770 'Freedom' speakers and one of the woofers is bust. So, I thought it would be fun to use the cabinets to build a new and improved speaker! The cabinets are suited to a 8" + 1" 2-way setup. (Mounting holes are 188mm and 75mm diameter respectively.) The net internal volume of the cabinets (having subtracted the volume of internal bracing/reinforcements) is 33.37 litres. The diameter of the hole in the baffle for a port is 63mm.
I have been searching for a "proven" design which I could briefly simulate in unibox and then recreate for myself. But I can't find anything appropriate where the drivers are available! So, before I give up, my question is: do you know any "proven"/tested designs which might work for a cabinet like this?
My constraints/preferences are:
- I'm on a bit of a budget (ideally don't want to be spending more than £200-300, but can stretch if that's unrealistic)
- Wanting to minimise structural modifications to the cabinets – I don't mind expanding the port/driver holes a little to make components fit, but I'd like to keep that kind of thing to a minimum
- I listen to a broad variety of music: folk, techno, modern classical, pop, AOR, you name it. So I'd like a versatile speaker.
- My "listening room" (bedroom) is untreated and, given the precarity of the private rental market in London, that's not going to change any time soon. So I don't want an excessively "fussy" speaker, if that makes sense. Relatedly, I don't always listen from the same part of the room. In fact, I like to listen from all over the room – at my desk, on my bed, walking around, etc. To have a sweet spot is great, but I suppose a super directional speaker wouldn't be the best idea.
- Bass extension is important to me
- I'm not necessarily interested in the flattest frequency response. I want a speaker that's fun to listen to (which might, for example, mean slightly exaggerated lows/highs?!). When I've listened to great speakers in the past, I've appreciated deep bass response, detail/clarity, and expansive stereo fields.
- The point, I guess, is that I'm not an audiophile per se, but a music lover and DiY enthusiast undoubtedly.
Although I'm on a budget, I know these things don't always come for free. If there are good speaker kits for me to look at, I'd be open to going down that route. But the idea of copying a more DiY design, putting a crossover together, etc., is more appealing to me.
Thank you in advance for any help you're able to offer!
Lewis
Take a look at the Zingers 2.
At the end of the Zingers thread there is change of tweeter, thus the "2". Your cabinets are a little bigger but you could glue some additional material to the interior walls to stiffen them up or even just add Styrofoam block to reduce the volume.
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/...roven-zingers-an-indiyana-2019-8-2-way-design
Drivers are:
Seas 27TBFC/G
Dayton Audio SD215A-88
At the end of the Zingers thread there is change of tweeter, thus the "2". Your cabinets are a little bigger but you could glue some additional material to the interior walls to stiffen them up or even just add Styrofoam block to reduce the volume.
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/...roven-zingers-an-indiyana-2019-8-2-way-design
Drivers are:
Seas 27TBFC/G
Dayton Audio SD215A-88
Wolf's discussion of the design process is really interesting and he explains why a 8" two way is hard to implement successfully. I haven't heard them of course, but I've read nothing but good comments on his design. They look cool, too.
As a matter of interest before they closed shop, Meniscus Audio had a kit for sale, which they would not have done unless it was a good speaker.
An alternative might be a project with a 8" woofer and full range driver like a little Vifa, but there are few projects around. There is a well documented design on this Forum which uses the Dayton RS225 and either a Scan Speak or Vifa TC9 full range, but a quick look suggests it would be over your budget.
Geoff
As a matter of interest before they closed shop, Meniscus Audio had a kit for sale, which they would not have done unless it was a good speaker.
An alternative might be a project with a 8" woofer and full range driver like a little Vifa, but there are few projects around. There is a well documented design on this Forum which uses the Dayton RS225 and either a Scan Speak or Vifa TC9 full range, but a quick look suggests it would be over your budget.
Geoff
Last edited:
Thanks for your advice Geoff!
I'm tinkering with unibox and can't quite get the port air speed or cone excursion to look quite as good given my larger volume, smaller port diameter, and less extensive damping. I can reduce the volume and increase the port diameter a little, but I probably won't be able to damp as extensively as he has. I'm sure it'll be okay though?!
I'm tinkering with unibox and can't quite get the port air speed or cone excursion to look quite as good given my larger volume, smaller port diameter, and less extensive damping. I can reduce the volume and increase the port diameter a little, but I probably won't be able to damp as extensively as he has. I'm sure it'll be okay though?!
I don't know anything about the technicalities, I'm afraid. Other members will be able to help.
Don't forget to look at the price of crossover parts when considering options: for example, the Zingers XO uses six parts, most of which are relatively cheap. Unfortunately, designs with a full range driver and woofer seem to require more expensive parts, e.g. higher value caps and inductors.
Geoff
Don't forget to look at the price of crossover parts when considering options: for example, the Zingers XO uses six parts, most of which are relatively cheap. Unfortunately, designs with a full range driver and woofer seem to require more expensive parts, e.g. higher value caps and inductors.
Geoff
There is an alternate floor standing cabinet model for the Zingers, of 1.5ft^3, or about 42 ltrs that yields an F3 of 29Hz. Your 33 ltrs is about half way between the 28 and 42ltr options, and should work out rather well. You will likely need a bend in your port to make it fit. I'd split the difference, tune it to 32Hz, and use a 3" port diameter.
Thank you @GeoffMillar , @A4eaudio and @wolf_teeth ! It does seem like it should work. I think I'll buy the drivers and XO components and then figure out the port/tuning while they're on their way. the 32hz/3" approach yields some good looking graphs on unibox, but I'd need to expand the port opening a decent amount, and figure out how to bend the port. Perhaps worth it though!
Reduce the diameter a bit. That helps massively and with flared ends the port noise is manageable.
Thank you both! Yes, I guess it makes sense to start with a smaller diameter port, see how it sounds at my normal listening volumes. I can always expand the hole at a later point, whereas the reverse is more complicated...
@Juhazi I'm not sure I follow you here. Is the point that these woofers wouldn't exceed their excursion or "chuff" (despite programmed like Unibox suggesting they would) because they were paired with smaller amps which didn't push them hard enough? If so, that's a helpful thing to remmeber as I'll probably be working off a small amp too. Or have I misunderstood your point?
@Juhazi I'm not sure I follow you here. Is the point that these woofers wouldn't exceed their excursion or "chuff" (despite programmed like Unibox suggesting they would) because they were paired with smaller amps which didn't push them hard enough? If so, that's a helpful thing to remmeber as I'll probably be working off a small amp too. Or have I misunderstood your point?
They’ve made a resurgence lately as folks are ‘enjoying’ the music with the crossover point of a tweeter lower……less of that modern age 2way/2k something mixing bowl where everything sounds good but nothing sounds great…….cross down low and don’t play it too loud……there’s a refreshing thing going on.
I was thinking of 8+1" in general. And vintage speakers were sealed or aperiodic, not BR... Typically speakers were put next to wall or in the corner, and the tone controls and often the Loudness button were used, not just to add tech decoration...
Last edited:
When doing your model in Unibox, optimize for 100dB output, not rates thermal power handling. This makes the real world output more relatable without needing a crazy large port diameter.
Ah, hi @wolf_teeth , I've only just clocked that it's you who designed the Zingers! Thanks for engaging with this – I'm very grateful to have your help.
When you say optimise for 100dB output, does that mean reduce the nominal power until the freq response graph plateaus around 100dB? If so, that answers a question I had: why you had used 45W rather than 80W in your models in the PE forum. Following this logic, I can actually put the nominal power to 30W, yielding a 100dB output in the FR chart. Then a 60mm tube tuned to 33Hz (187mm long) starts to look decent! See attached.
I think I'm going to just order the parts and see how they sound with the 60mm port. If there's loads of chuffing, I guess I'll seal and cover the port opening, and add a new, bigger opening to the sides of the cabs 🙂
Lewis
When you say optimise for 100dB output, does that mean reduce the nominal power until the freq response graph plateaus around 100dB? If so, that answers a question I had: why you had used 45W rather than 80W in your models in the PE forum. Following this logic, I can actually put the nominal power to 30W, yielding a 100dB output in the FR chart. Then a 60mm tube tuned to 33Hz (187mm long) starts to look decent! See attached.
I think I'm going to just order the parts and see how they sound with the 60mm port. If there's loads of chuffing, I guess I'll seal and cover the port opening, and add a new, bigger opening to the sides of the cabs 🙂
Lewis
Attachments
Oh, and one more question: I'm not going to have the drivers overlapping as in the proper Zinger spec, since I'll be using existing cabs. There will be 175mm between the centre of the woofer and the centre of the tweeter. I appreciate that's probably not ideal, but is it the end of the world?
Thank you again!
Thank you again!
I would advise at least a 2.5" diameter port, and lean toward a 3" in that volume.
As long as you sit far enough away, the drivers will still blend, even when spaced out further. You could always superimpose a new baffle atop the old one if feeling like you should. 6" is about 2kHz and I think it was xoverd at 1.8-2k, IIRC, and 7" comes out to 1.9kHz for wavelength.
It really should be just fine in this application at that distance.
If you stretch vertical offset further, you can hear the image stretch from woofer to tweeter as the transition between is made. This makes it sound like the image is now at a higher position than it wwas. Going up the scale vocally, sounds like a woman stands up from a sitting position.
This is just so you know what to listen for, but you really should not have this kind of error on the Zingers, even at the extra 1" spread.
As long as you sit far enough away, the drivers will still blend, even when spaced out further. You could always superimpose a new baffle atop the old one if feeling like you should. 6" is about 2kHz and I think it was xoverd at 1.8-2k, IIRC, and 7" comes out to 1.9kHz for wavelength.
It really should be just fine in this application at that distance.
If you stretch vertical offset further, you can hear the image stretch from woofer to tweeter as the transition between is made. This makes it sound like the image is now at a higher position than it wwas. Going up the scale vocally, sounds like a woman stands up from a sitting position.
This is just so you know what to listen for, but you really should not have this kind of error on the Zingers, even at the extra 1" spread.