And why should WE in the west dictate how it has to be "certified"... I have friends, DO178B/C and DO-254 experts that went to Japan to help Mitsubishi... but that is almost a captive industry... And it ain't rocket science, trust me.
I helped out in Oz too... but again, they play by our rules.
No, you underestimate them. The issues they had was with employee motivation and financial investment... that has changed in the last 12 years.
I'm afraid the West has created a formidable adversary.
Now, I'm gonna open that P3 and hope I can swap OP-Amps without breaking it. Maybe I need some 12AX7s in there...
I trust the Russkies a hell of a lot more than.....
Anyhow, the root of your people's issues is politics and I don't want to go there
Let me just state that the West has created a monster... it didn't have to.
And Boeing better get its act together... heck, Western Industry better get its act together.. stop letting the money men run the show.
Anyhow, the root of your people's issues is politics and I don't want to go there
Let me just state that the West has created a monster... it didn't have to.
And Boeing better get its act together... heck, Western Industry better get its act together.. stop letting the money men run the show.
I’m not sure you’re making that particularly easy, but yeah let’s all be civil in our disagreements - this ain’t X.
That said, I think you’re right in target in opining that it’s long been overdue to green light the 797, or what ever they decide to call their NMA / mid sized twin engine twin aisle liner - as long as they worry less about the security of the shareholders’ investments than the safety of the flying public; you know, let the engineers and quality assurance folks do their job.
That said, I think you’re right in target in opining that it’s long been overdue to green light the 797, or what ever they decide to call their NMA / mid sized twin engine twin aisle liner - as long as they worry less about the security of the shareholders’ investments than the safety of the flying public; you know, let the engineers and quality assurance folks do their job.
Pretty good documentary style program on it:
The plot thickens:
"Employees at its Washington State factory are said to have removed the door plug
for further work before the plane was delivered to Alaska Airlines."
Boeing Reinstalled Panel That Later Blew Out of 737 Max Jet
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/24/business/boeing-max-9-door-plug.html
"Employees at its Washington State factory are said to have removed the door plug
for further work before the plane was delivered to Alaska Airlines."
Boeing Reinstalled Panel That Later Blew Out of 737 Max Jet
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/24/business/boeing-max-9-door-plug.html
Very good information here -
https://leehamnews.com/2024/01/24/culture-key-to-latest-boeing-max-crisis-panelists/#more-43759
https://leehamnews.com/2024/01/24/culture-key-to-latest-boeing-max-crisis-panelists/#more-43759
It all sounds great - change culture, focus on quality over profits, blah, blah. If two planes going down killing hundreds of people didn't change anything, nothing will. This company is garbage. Dump your stocks lol. Wait no, don't dump your stocks - they'll be bailed out if needed and all will be "good" again.
Pathetic.
Pathetic.
^
The politics at Boeing's HQ and the higher levels of management (senior director and above) were known to be dog-eat-dog horrendous with a complete lack of team spirit and almost no engineers left on board.
Back in the Y2K...
It has not changed, not even the move to Chicago alleviated it.
Let me give a story....
We used to travel all over the country to handle our vendors (including Canada, the Pacific and the UK). So, we were constantly filling travel reports. The idea was that you filled in a simple form, gave it to your group secretary with receipts and she'd send it to the Travel group and they'd handle it. We had like 1000 engineers doing this - in my airplane alone.
Then they got a new senior VP in charge of travel and he changed it so his travel group created extremely complex web forms that the engineers had to fill in. Well, engineers are engineers, we don't have all the keywords for all of those travel fields... that why there's a Travel Dept.
So, our group had to hire six full time secretaries to handle the travel.
A year later, the new VP of Travel sent a division wide email proudly stating his Dept had slashed its cost of handling travel expenses by 90% ( I'm sure he got a huge bonus for that).
When I got that email i was incensed, so I composed a "reply-to-all" asking the Senior VP to give us a charge number so we could reflect the actual cost at the enterprise level for handling what his department used to do.... I mean, they were experts, we were not... My point was that the actual cost to the enterprise was higher when non experts were forced to do his team's job and he had to measure the actual cost to the enterprise before he could claim victory - not just his own budget.
But, I got wise... I forwarded my email to my own senior director... "should I send this?"... well, he called me in and agreed that I was right but it was likely not the correct way to highlight how myopic that Senior VP was.
That Senior VP was emblematic of how endemic the "fiefdom attitude" is within the Boeing Company... too many lawyers, MBA.. and not enough engineers...
The politics at Boeing's HQ and the higher levels of management (senior director and above) were known to be dog-eat-dog horrendous with a complete lack of team spirit and almost no engineers left on board.
Back in the Y2K...
It has not changed, not even the move to Chicago alleviated it.
Let me give a story....
We used to travel all over the country to handle our vendors (including Canada, the Pacific and the UK). So, we were constantly filling travel reports. The idea was that you filled in a simple form, gave it to your group secretary with receipts and she'd send it to the Travel group and they'd handle it. We had like 1000 engineers doing this - in my airplane alone.
Then they got a new senior VP in charge of travel and he changed it so his travel group created extremely complex web forms that the engineers had to fill in. Well, engineers are engineers, we don't have all the keywords for all of those travel fields... that why there's a Travel Dept.
So, our group had to hire six full time secretaries to handle the travel.
A year later, the new VP of Travel sent a division wide email proudly stating his Dept had slashed its cost of handling travel expenses by 90% ( I'm sure he got a huge bonus for that).
When I got that email i was incensed, so I composed a "reply-to-all" asking the Senior VP to give us a charge number so we could reflect the actual cost at the enterprise level for handling what his department used to do.... I mean, they were experts, we were not... My point was that the actual cost to the enterprise was higher when non experts were forced to do his team's job and he had to measure the actual cost to the enterprise before he could claim victory - not just his own budget.
But, I got wise... I forwarded my email to my own senior director... "should I send this?"... well, he called me in and agreed that I was right but it was likely not the correct way to highlight how myopic that Senior VP was.
That Senior VP was emblematic of how endemic the "fiefdom attitude" is within the Boeing Company... too many lawyers, MBA.. and not enough engineers...
I am going to tread lightly here -- what qualifications did Nikki Haley have to become a Director of Boeing in 2019? Perhaps they need someone with a non-CPA undergrad degree in accounting.
Just look at the revolving door of Directorships at the big defense contractors.
Refraining from publishing the pic of various K-Street bigs with their DOD pals at Davos.
Just look at the revolving door of Directorships at the big defense contractors.
Refraining from publishing the pic of various K-Street bigs with their DOD pals at Davos.
I agree with Tony, do not underestimate the Russians.
A little political type background:
The Germans laid siege to Moscow and another city in WWII, one city was blocked for 1000 days, and a city lost 800,000 citizens.
The Soviet response was to take over Berlin (the Americans / Allies came later to Berlin), and finish the Germans in power.
They are very resolute, and you will see that in Ukraine.
Second, the Democrats have started all the wars after 1945, and the Americans have LOST them all...to forces equipped mostly with Soviet / Russian equipment!
Third, look up the Alpha class submarines, fastest ever till now.
Titanium hull, liquid Bismuth core coolant in a nuclear attack submarine, 4 built and deployed in the 1970s.
The Americans still have not matched that, FYI Titanium is difficult to bend, and the reactor..well it was so advanced that the Americans have not matched it., 50 years later.
A titanium submarine is mind blowing by itself.
And as far as Ukraine is concerned, the Russians are playing cat and mouse there, their long term plans are not to be discussed here. They are equipped to remove Ukraine from the map in half an hour, they have not done it yet.
And if you follow military aviation, read up on the R-73 missile, its true capabilities were realized after the Polish Air Force manuals were gone through by USAF people, after their merger / whatever with NATO.
It was more advanced than the AIM-9L, and had been in service for 20 odd years by then.
That resulted in the hurried development of the AIM-9X and AIM-120 missiles.
And some soiled underwear in the USAF, I believe.
Also, see their design strength, the An-124 and 224 were designed and built in Russia / Ukraine long ago, still the record holders in some categories.
I feel there is a lot of ostrich like attitude in the West, and ill informed pride, let us not go that side.
Apart from the Russians, a Chinese aircraft has been certified, and another is in the works.
As far as jurisdiction is concerned, the FAA cannot intervene, is indeed irrelevant on flights starting and ending outside the USA...so they do not matter in 75% of the world.
Frankly speaking, Australia has a population about equal to one of our largest cities, and my city has 4.2 million in the area, New Zealand has about 5 million...so how many people are going to fly within India, compared to Oz / NZ?
Back on topic: Boeing has to get its act together, in a properly managed way, perhaps in a way Cincinatti used to design machines, as a 'wolf pack', each component as designed and delivered by a team of experts, and the development was very fast.
I do not see that happening in a company with a high rate of executive turnover, controlled by bean counters playing the money market, with a ready handout line as they are defense contractors as well.
A little political type background:
The Germans laid siege to Moscow and another city in WWII, one city was blocked for 1000 days, and a city lost 800,000 citizens.
The Soviet response was to take over Berlin (the Americans / Allies came later to Berlin), and finish the Germans in power.
They are very resolute, and you will see that in Ukraine.
Second, the Democrats have started all the wars after 1945, and the Americans have LOST them all...to forces equipped mostly with Soviet / Russian equipment!
Third, look up the Alpha class submarines, fastest ever till now.
Titanium hull, liquid Bismuth core coolant in a nuclear attack submarine, 4 built and deployed in the 1970s.
The Americans still have not matched that, FYI Titanium is difficult to bend, and the reactor..well it was so advanced that the Americans have not matched it., 50 years later.
A titanium submarine is mind blowing by itself.
And as far as Ukraine is concerned, the Russians are playing cat and mouse there, their long term plans are not to be discussed here. They are equipped to remove Ukraine from the map in half an hour, they have not done it yet.
And if you follow military aviation, read up on the R-73 missile, its true capabilities were realized after the Polish Air Force manuals were gone through by USAF people, after their merger / whatever with NATO.
It was more advanced than the AIM-9L, and had been in service for 20 odd years by then.
That resulted in the hurried development of the AIM-9X and AIM-120 missiles.
And some soiled underwear in the USAF, I believe.
Also, see their design strength, the An-124 and 224 were designed and built in Russia / Ukraine long ago, still the record holders in some categories.
I feel there is a lot of ostrich like attitude in the West, and ill informed pride, let us not go that side.
Apart from the Russians, a Chinese aircraft has been certified, and another is in the works.
As far as jurisdiction is concerned, the FAA cannot intervene, is indeed irrelevant on flights starting and ending outside the USA...so they do not matter in 75% of the world.
Frankly speaking, Australia has a population about equal to one of our largest cities, and my city has 4.2 million in the area, New Zealand has about 5 million...so how many people are going to fly within India, compared to Oz / NZ?
Back on topic: Boeing has to get its act together, in a properly managed way, perhaps in a way Cincinatti used to design machines, as a 'wolf pack', each component as designed and delivered by a team of experts, and the development was very fast.
I do not see that happening in a company with a high rate of executive turnover, controlled by bean counters playing the money market, with a ready handout line as they are defense contractors as well.
Miles O'Brien nails it here, startint at 5:00. Once again, for the millionth time, Boeing spent the last quarter century replacing the management's engineering/safety mindset with the business/profit mindset that infiltrated from the McDonnell-Douglas merger. All that's left are the details of what's gone and still going wrong.
Also, the Frontline episode "Boeing's Fatal Flaw" is still up. I'd like to require everyone in Congress to watch it.
Also, the Frontline episode "Boeing's Fatal Flaw" is still up. I'd like to require everyone in Congress to watch it.
You missed the point...air traffic in passengers and flights within India is in many multiples of Oz / NZ, and while we respect the FAA and their equivalent, they do not have jurisdiction in India.
And we do not do stupid things like self certification, the A/B/C/D checks are done by chartered engineers (airline employees, but first respect for the certificate).
Flight certification and instrument checks for new types are handled by civilian employees, mostly ex Air Force instructor / test pilot level pilots / navigators / engineers with more than 2,000 hours on aircraft.
They work for a government organization called the DGCA.
The FAA let Boeing issue the C of A for the Max series...reminds me of the song title 'How Silly Can You Get?"
Indian Railways daily passengers transported: 24 million passengers.
Indian Air passengers daily: 417,000.
India also has more than 2.2 million buses, in scheduled as well as private (workers, school) in use.
Australia: 5.41 million airline and charter passengers in November 2023, so about 180,000 daily.
So the civil aviation sector in India is a lot bigger than Australia, and we have to build our own systems, we cannot have some other country's procedures as binding.
And we do not do stupid things like self certification, the A/B/C/D checks are done by chartered engineers (airline employees, but first respect for the certificate).
Flight certification and instrument checks for new types are handled by civilian employees, mostly ex Air Force instructor / test pilot level pilots / navigators / engineers with more than 2,000 hours on aircraft.
They work for a government organization called the DGCA.
The FAA let Boeing issue the C of A for the Max series...reminds me of the song title 'How Silly Can You Get?"
Indian Railways daily passengers transported: 24 million passengers.
Indian Air passengers daily: 417,000.
India also has more than 2.2 million buses, in scheduled as well as private (workers, school) in use.
Australia: 5.41 million airline and charter passengers in November 2023, so about 180,000 daily.
So the civil aviation sector in India is a lot bigger than Australia, and we have to build our own systems, we cannot have some other country's procedures as binding.
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