I had the wonderful experience of flying to Madrid and my seat-mate was senior exec of a German manufacturing firm -- one of the not so secret secrets -- they get more work done in an hour of manufacturing than companies in the US and UK. A lot of this owes to superior education for the trades.
The contrary side is the tolerance for business risk which is an order of magnitude higher in the US where bankruptcy doesn't carry social stigma, only financial costs -- I'm gonna research this but I bet borrowing costs for small US companies are higher than their Euro-centric opposites.
Different societal norms really do make the world go round. Cultures are not necessarily an impediment.
One has to remember that before 1939 this wasn't so. My boss was Austrian and was able to be critical and admiring. He graduated about 1937. His special diploma took 7 years. That period was the training. Obviously the education was in existence long before 1933. He greatly admired the Italians and Fiat who he worked with. He said an Opal cars was what you bought if you couldn't afford an Austin.
The main difference I think is in large companies.
While in the US and UK they tend to be owned by shareholders in Germany they tend to be either family owned (Volkswagen Group, BMW for example) or by non-profit charitable trusts (Bosch, ZF and Carl Zeiss optics for example).
It is quite difficult and expensive to make employees redundant in Germany unless the company goes bankrupt and ceases to exist. They can expand manufacturing into other countries like China but not at the expense of their german workforce. That said Siemens has closed many of its foreign manufacturing plants while at the same time guaranteeing their german employees jobs for life.
Also dealing in futures has been illegal in Germany until about ten years ago. This practice is deeply hated by nearly everybody. In fact when the Porsche/Piëch family finally acquired VW the whole deal was carefully orchestrated to bankrupt as many hedge funds who deal in futures as possible and it worked.
This is going very much OT though...
Wonder if Boeing will "re-work" them as some New "Mid-Series" Model.
From what I can tell - the problem lies in the Controls / Stall-Prevention sub-system.
It DOES NOT appear to be a problem with the Airframe itself - which is based upon a design that has been proven over MANY years of safe operation.
But the situation has left such a bad taste in Boeing's mouth that I wouldn't be surprised if they end-up buying back those planes, scrapping them out, and replacing them with a newer model mainly because of the negative publicity / stigma that will become "attached" to the Max airframes regardless of what the actual problem is.
From what I can tell - the problem lies in the Controls / Stall-Prevention sub-system.
It DOES NOT appear to be a problem with the Airframe itself - which is based upon a design that has been proven over MANY years of safe operation.
But the situation has left such a bad taste in Boeing's mouth that I wouldn't be surprised if they end-up buying back those planes, scrapping them out, and replacing them with a newer model mainly because of the negative publicity / stigma that will become "attached" to the Max airframes regardless of what the actual problem is.
Geeqner, according to their website there remain a total of just under 4600 unfilled orders for the 737Max. There are a total of 4 models in the Max series, as well as 3 in the earlier NG series - the major distinction being the smaller CFM56 in the NG, vs the LEAP 1B for the Max.
IINM, this certification type remains the most widely sold commercial airliner in history, and until recently quite a profit center, so I imagine the 10s of Billions involved in refunding deposits for not yet built or undelivered and buying back existing fleet is not on anyone's radar.
Neither do they appear close to having a suitable replacement for this particular airframe category that could be put into production in any reasonable time.
Boeing: Commercial
It's now been over 9 months since the grounding, and the FAA has apparently finally grown a pair and unequivocally stated that re-certification will happen on their schedule, not the company's. This could well be the thin edge of the wedge.
Since a high closing value of $440 on March 1, 2019, the stock price has dropped over $113. share to $327.
IINM, this certification type remains the most widely sold commercial airliner in history, and until recently quite a profit center, so I imagine the 10s of Billions involved in refunding deposits for not yet built or undelivered and buying back existing fleet is not on anyone's radar.
Neither do they appear close to having a suitable replacement for this particular airframe category that could be put into production in any reasonable time.
Boeing: Commercial
It's now been over 9 months since the grounding, and the FAA has apparently finally grown a pair and unequivocally stated that re-certification will happen on their schedule, not the company's. This could well be the thin edge of the wedge.
Since a high closing value of $440 on March 1, 2019, the stock price has dropped over $113. share to $327.
Last edited:
I remember when Philips had trouble with cd players. The fix a wedge shaped piece of plastic. When fixed Infront of the owner in five minutes having removed many parts the repairman becomes hero. When the 737 Max it's a story of life and death. The problem in both cases a very small thing that can not be ignored. If Boeing survive I will be happy to fly in a 737 max. In fact happier than many.
Ironically my favourite cd player needs that part and I have no source of the part. 5% of CDs don't play. Naim modified that clamp which improves the design. I can do that and it is better sounding. Naim found that a mystery. Maybe a similar problem as the Max. Subtly wrong.
Ironically my favourite cd player needs that part and I have no source of the part. 5% of CDs don't play. Naim modified that clamp which improves the design. I can do that and it is better sounding. Naim found that a mystery. Maybe a similar problem as the Max. Subtly wrong.
You can see from the Boeing market cap chart below how Mulenberg pumped up the stock price after he took over in 2015.
Seen it, been there. It’s almost always never any good for operations, product innovation and quality.
Boeing are in purgatory right now. It’s clear the FAA have taken back control and are putting the boot in.
Seen it, been there. It’s almost always never any good for operations, product innovation and quality.
Boeing are in purgatory right now. It’s clear the FAA have taken back control and are putting the boot in.
Attachments
Last edited:
I think as far as Europe is concerned, there's still some fallout from the last war. German industry was turned into dust and had to be rebuild. So in the 60-ies they had the most modern industrial installations except for the US. The UK on the other hand was still using 40-ies and before machinery which had survived the war unscathed and there was no drive to modernize.
That difference, although getting smaller, is still there and accounts for at least part of the difference in productivity.
Jan
Back in 85 or 86 friend of my sister got me a summer job in a place that made notepads and -books. He was the chief manager in charge of the entire place for the late shift (15:15 - 23:45), his qualification for the job was his masters degree in mechanical engineering.
In Germany investment in machinery can be offset against taxes over 10 years. The moment the tax relief expired the machines were sold, usually to developing countries. There was not one machine in there that was made prior to 1975.
The machine I worked on was a huge beastie which ate paper, ink and wire at one end and pooped out A4 notebooks at the other, about 160 000 per shift. At that point it was already sold to Kenya. Their salesman/installation engineer (he sold the machines and then overlooked installation where ever it was sold to*) told us that it would be manned by 8-12 people down there. We ran it with the machinist, a little turkish woman 9the machinists wife as it turned out) and me. He ran the machine, she packed the output into boxes and I sealed the boxes and stacked them on pallets.
*when nothing was being sold he was the chief maintenance engineer, when away my mate would take that responsibility besides managing the late shift.
In Germany investment in machinery can be offset against taxes over 10 years. The moment the tax relief expired the machines were sold, usually to developing countries. There was not one machine in there that was made prior to 1975.
The machine I worked on was a huge beastie which ate paper, ink and wire at one end and pooped out A4 notebooks at the other, about 160 000 per shift. At that point it was already sold to Kenya. Their salesman/installation engineer (he sold the machines and then overlooked installation where ever it was sold to*) told us that it would be manned by 8-12 people down there. We ran it with the machinist, a little turkish woman 9the machinists wife as it turned out) and me. He ran the machine, she packed the output into boxes and I sealed the boxes and stacked them on pallets.
*when nothing was being sold he was the chief maintenance engineer, when away my mate would take that responsibility besides managing the late shift.
It's a complex issue. I do not think that British workers are any worse than their German counterparts but there are a number of things that together have conspired to put us in the position we are now. It took 40 years to get away from the 'make do and mend' mentality and of course paying back USA for lend lease. I think ownership is a big difference and British management was historically a huge problem. All bar one are fixable. The Ownership issue will haunt us for some time. But as the BMW mini plant shows, we can do it, albeit having been helped by honda in the 80s! At my first job at BAe there were still bits in the lab with 'De Havilland propellors' inventory tags..
UK 'has particularly extreme form of capitalism' - BBC News apt article on UK extreme capitalism.
UK 'has particularly extreme form of capitalism' - BBC News apt article on UK extreme capitalism.
I do agree and it gels nicely with my own experiences that the problem in Britain are not the workers but management and faceless ownership by pension and investment funds who do not care about individual companies or their products. They only care about regularly paid out dividends and steadily rising share values.
Yeah - In "Modern" corporations, it seems that they "need" to consistently achieve "record" returns (done by canning anybody who knows what they're doing or gives a rat's-hind-end about what they do, usually around the end of the quarter). If they don't do it, the big investors (mutual funds, as in US) lose interest and they circle the drain or become attractive to buyouts. It's getting to the point where "Long-Term Planning" is becoming the End of the Quarter...
I'd like to see some large corporations come-out with a public statement / adopt the philosophy of the old "blue-chip" stocks - where the goal was slow but SUSTAINABLE growth over time. That scheme would allow them to keep a core of people with REAL knowledge and experience, and allow for some overhead to support REAL investment in R&D, which is needed in order to achieve that type of goal. Plus I'm sure that once they establish a reliable track-record, there ARE investors that are looking for that type of growth and to get off the "rollercoaster".
I'd like to see some large corporations come-out with a public statement / adopt the philosophy of the old "blue-chip" stocks - where the goal was slow but SUSTAINABLE growth over time. That scheme would allow them to keep a core of people with REAL knowledge and experience, and allow for some overhead to support REAL investment in R&D, which is needed in order to achieve that type of goal. Plus I'm sure that once they establish a reliable track-record, there ARE investors that are looking for that type of growth and to get off the "rollercoaster".
The plane is unbalanced due to the large engines, hence the control problems.
Is the Boeing 737 MAX Worth Saving?
Trying to bring sort of back in line with the thread here is another recent BBC article which helped me understand a bit more about how executive pay has evolved in USA How much should bosses be paid? - BBC News
The differences between the way businesses are run in different countries is fascinating, and pertinant to trying to understand complex issues like we have on this thread (IMO)
The differences between the way businesses are run in different countries is fascinating, and pertinant to trying to understand complex issues like we have on this thread (IMO)
- Status
- Not open for further replies.