I had to Google your amp as was not familiar with it: In my eyes and after reading the specs:
I guess its more than sufficient to power your present T-TQWT BW-wise but a little short for a paralleled TC Sound driver.
I guess a 1.5 kW/5 Hz power BW would be OK.
b🙂
I agree with lduarte1973 and DrDyna's suggestions. You will probably want an active crossover eventually. e.g. Behringer CX2310 Super-X Pro Crossover 2-Way/3-Way
If you want to build something yourself, kits are available. e.g. Linkwitz-Riley Electronic Crossover
enjoy!
If you want to build something yourself, kits are available. e.g. Linkwitz-Riley Electronic Crossover
enjoy!
I go by a few simple rules
Two 12's = one 15 and two 15's = one 18. Very rough cut way to figure it out but it is close.
Using two drivers in "push-pull" reduces distortion VS a single driver--not two cabs--two drivers in one cab. I use the Isobarik push-pull face to face configuration for my home theater subwoofer and it works very, very well. Isobarik cuts output 3 dB from a single speaker but requires half the space.
Since two woofers will increase output +3dB over a single driver (at the SAME power) you then have to see what the difference between a pair of 12's have over a single 15.
Then expand it, two 15's push-pull increase output by +3dB for free. The box gets larger and according to Electro-Voice (and what I have measured) you'll "gain" about 1 Hz lower frequency response VS a single driver. Is that enough to equal the efficiency of a single 18" driver AND get the same bandwidth AND have the same distortion?
Will four 12 inch drivers equal the same frequency response, same output, same power handling and same distortion as a single 18" woofer? That is the question and how much will that COST?
Personally, since I have violated so many "laws" of audio by using two 15" PA woofers to drive an 18" passive radiator tuned to 21.4 Hz (it works) The reason it works is it was tuned to the corner where the subwoofer sits--it takes advantage of the corner/room loading and will go down to 10 Hz although at 40 watts max (tested--not in theory) 20 to 40 Hz at +/- 2dB? I'll take it! 😛 Reality trumps all theory--always!
So we get back to what you want--I know what you want. My PA days were 1989 to 1998 with my low limit at 40Hz. I stacked high pass filters, 40 Hz 12 dB/octave and 20 Hz 24 dB/Octave. (36 dB per octave at 20 Hz) I bumped the EQ at +6 at 42 Hz knowing the filter kicks in at -3dB at 40 Hz--psycho acoustics at play! I had eight 15 inch woofers that split all the power and it worked very well.
I could never beat the 30 Hz cut off of those massive Cerwin-Vega 18's but I sure tried! Since I'm all about "cheating", I got the "best bass award" in the club.
Welcome to the 21st century--I am out of the business but this little town I'm in does not have PA above a bull horn. In the garage are two 6 foot tall line array speakers to solve that problem. After that, a horn loaded subwoofer will be constructed. Not a hard spec to meet--I need 118 dB at 30 Hz which is not a problem (tapped horn) Just a quirk but to be impressive does not involve hippie music from the 70's--more like (filtered) drum and bass. For this reason, I want 30 Hz since anything less is just a rehash of the old days. Why build something I had 20 years ago? If they want anything below 30Hz, that is not my problem--I just do this for entertaining myself.
So.... you want 125 dB at 30 Hz OUTSIDE with $100 for a speaker? Here is your answer--ain't going to happen. Save your time, save your effort--not worth your time or broken back trying. The $200 price point MIGHT get you there... maybe, if you hold your mouth right. But how to get there?
I've been vacuuming up information on tapped horns. The reason I prefer tapped over the louder front loaded horns is two reasons. Tapped is smaller/lighter and the speaker is not trapped in a sealed chamber. Heat is transferred out of the tapped horn by air movement VS just heating up a sealed box.
You want 30 Hz, I want 18 Hz--I'm looking at the JBL GTO 12" automotive subwoofer. Unlike you, I want to use two of the 12's in push-pull in a tapped horn. Then make another one and couple the mouths together and pray I can get 18 Hz at 130dB with 1,200 watts (max from a normal outlet)
What the heck, look at the JBL GTO--get a pair of them (under $200) build a tapped horn pegged at 30 Hz and see what you get! This involves learning horn response (you can do it) slap the thing together and see what it does. Need more output? Build a second one with the push-pull dual 12's and gain +6 dB. Any additional gains from putting the horn mouths at 90 degrees and slapping plywood on the top to extend the mouth is gravy.
After looking at the specs, it is 90dB sensitivity at 4 ohms--assume 87dB at one watt. Put two of them in series for 8 ohms at an actual 90dB at one watt. (What I will do) 600 watts = +28dB for 118 dB for a single box at that power level. Then add +6 dB for a second one at the same 600 watt power level...it equals 124dB.
Now it gets interesting. Add +6 to +10 for a tapped horn alignment... 130 to 134dB at 30 Hz....at 1,200 watts. Can I do the same thing at 18 Hz? Can I get 130dB at 18 Hz at 1,200 watts? To you it is annoying, to me it is a fun puzzle.
After all, forcing a 15" woofer with an Xmax of 4.5mm and Fs of 35 Hz to hit 21 to 10 Hz in a corner is "not advised". Isobarik loading is nuts--passive radiators don't make sense either. My b@stard sub works though... works very well...best sub I've ever heard.
I know the JBL GTO 12" subwoofer works in horns, it is around $90 each and a pair of them will give you better power handling, better distortion control and either 8 ohms or 2 ohm load. A pair of them can be configured for 4 ohms easily.
Now to figure out Horn Response--cuz that is the spirit of DIY Audio--to build the things to suit your needs even if they are "not advised".
Have a great weekend!
JBL GTO1214 - 12 Grand Touring Die-Cast Series Component Subwoofer
Two 12's = one 15 and two 15's = one 18. Very rough cut way to figure it out but it is close.
Using two drivers in "push-pull" reduces distortion VS a single driver--not two cabs--two drivers in one cab. I use the Isobarik push-pull face to face configuration for my home theater subwoofer and it works very, very well. Isobarik cuts output 3 dB from a single speaker but requires half the space.
Since two woofers will increase output +3dB over a single driver (at the SAME power) you then have to see what the difference between a pair of 12's have over a single 15.
Then expand it, two 15's push-pull increase output by +3dB for free. The box gets larger and according to Electro-Voice (and what I have measured) you'll "gain" about 1 Hz lower frequency response VS a single driver. Is that enough to equal the efficiency of a single 18" driver AND get the same bandwidth AND have the same distortion?
Will four 12 inch drivers equal the same frequency response, same output, same power handling and same distortion as a single 18" woofer? That is the question and how much will that COST?
Personally, since I have violated so many "laws" of audio by using two 15" PA woofers to drive an 18" passive radiator tuned to 21.4 Hz (it works) The reason it works is it was tuned to the corner where the subwoofer sits--it takes advantage of the corner/room loading and will go down to 10 Hz although at 40 watts max (tested--not in theory) 20 to 40 Hz at +/- 2dB? I'll take it! 😛 Reality trumps all theory--always!
So we get back to what you want--I know what you want. My PA days were 1989 to 1998 with my low limit at 40Hz. I stacked high pass filters, 40 Hz 12 dB/octave and 20 Hz 24 dB/Octave. (36 dB per octave at 20 Hz) I bumped the EQ at +6 at 42 Hz knowing the filter kicks in at -3dB at 40 Hz--psycho acoustics at play! I had eight 15 inch woofers that split all the power and it worked very well.
I could never beat the 30 Hz cut off of those massive Cerwin-Vega 18's but I sure tried! Since I'm all about "cheating", I got the "best bass award" in the club.
Welcome to the 21st century--I am out of the business but this little town I'm in does not have PA above a bull horn. In the garage are two 6 foot tall line array speakers to solve that problem. After that, a horn loaded subwoofer will be constructed. Not a hard spec to meet--I need 118 dB at 30 Hz which is not a problem (tapped horn) Just a quirk but to be impressive does not involve hippie music from the 70's--more like (filtered) drum and bass. For this reason, I want 30 Hz since anything less is just a rehash of the old days. Why build something I had 20 years ago? If they want anything below 30Hz, that is not my problem--I just do this for entertaining myself.
So.... you want 125 dB at 30 Hz OUTSIDE with $100 for a speaker? Here is your answer--ain't going to happen. Save your time, save your effort--not worth your time or broken back trying. The $200 price point MIGHT get you there... maybe, if you hold your mouth right. But how to get there?
I've been vacuuming up information on tapped horns. The reason I prefer tapped over the louder front loaded horns is two reasons. Tapped is smaller/lighter and the speaker is not trapped in a sealed chamber. Heat is transferred out of the tapped horn by air movement VS just heating up a sealed box.
You want 30 Hz, I want 18 Hz--I'm looking at the JBL GTO 12" automotive subwoofer. Unlike you, I want to use two of the 12's in push-pull in a tapped horn. Then make another one and couple the mouths together and pray I can get 18 Hz at 130dB with 1,200 watts (max from a normal outlet)
What the heck, look at the JBL GTO--get a pair of them (under $200) build a tapped horn pegged at 30 Hz and see what you get! This involves learning horn response (you can do it) slap the thing together and see what it does. Need more output? Build a second one with the push-pull dual 12's and gain +6 dB. Any additional gains from putting the horn mouths at 90 degrees and slapping plywood on the top to extend the mouth is gravy.
After looking at the specs, it is 90dB sensitivity at 4 ohms--assume 87dB at one watt. Put two of them in series for 8 ohms at an actual 90dB at one watt. (What I will do) 600 watts = +28dB for 118 dB for a single box at that power level. Then add +6 dB for a second one at the same 600 watt power level...it equals 124dB.
Now it gets interesting. Add +6 to +10 for a tapped horn alignment... 130 to 134dB at 30 Hz....at 1,200 watts. Can I do the same thing at 18 Hz? Can I get 130dB at 18 Hz at 1,200 watts? To you it is annoying, to me it is a fun puzzle.
After all, forcing a 15" woofer with an Xmax of 4.5mm and Fs of 35 Hz to hit 21 to 10 Hz in a corner is "not advised". Isobarik loading is nuts--passive radiators don't make sense either. My b@stard sub works though... works very well...best sub I've ever heard.
I know the JBL GTO 12" subwoofer works in horns, it is around $90 each and a pair of them will give you better power handling, better distortion control and either 8 ohms or 2 ohm load. A pair of them can be configured for 4 ohms easily.
Now to figure out Horn Response--cuz that is the spirit of DIY Audio--to build the things to suit your needs even if they are "not advised".
Have a great weekend!
JBL GTO1214 - 12 Grand Touring Die-Cast Series Component Subwoofer
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"the problem is caused by exceeding Xmax"
I beg to disagree.
Have you ever listened to a JBL 4430 studio monitor?
The 2235 woofer has a very high x-max, shorting rings, and a very linear spider.
It also has very annoying amounts of 'gargle' at only moderate drive levels due to the wide bandwidth the woofer must cover (30hz~1Khz).
Older monitor designs (such as the Altec 604) are even worse due to their even higher crossover points (1.6Khz).
One need only to read the literature to find that co-axial drivers compared with the same drivers mounted on the baffle have higher amounts of FMD. This would indicate that it is not driver non-linearity per se, but actual Doppler (and the sum and difference side-bands can be measured with a simple wave analyzer).
I guess my question is: what kind of bandwidth can be used with the super x-max drivers before audible 'gargle' sets in, or the sound becomes 'congested'? What is the highest crossover point practical with designs based on these type of drivers?
I beg to disagree.
Have you ever listened to a JBL 4430 studio monitor?
The 2235 woofer has a very high x-max, shorting rings, and a very linear spider.
It also has very annoying amounts of 'gargle' at only moderate drive levels due to the wide bandwidth the woofer must cover (30hz~1Khz).
Older monitor designs (such as the Altec 604) are even worse due to their even higher crossover points (1.6Khz).
One need only to read the literature to find that co-axial drivers compared with the same drivers mounted on the baffle have higher amounts of FMD. This would indicate that it is not driver non-linearity per se, but actual Doppler (and the sum and difference side-bands can be measured with a simple wave analyzer).
I guess my question is: what kind of bandwidth can be used with the super x-max drivers before audible 'gargle' sets in, or the sound becomes 'congested'? What is the highest crossover point practical with designs based on these type of drivers?
Nice thread w/ JBL GTO 1214:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/160879-build-your-own-2x12-th.html
Regards,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/160879-build-your-own-2x12-th.html
Regards,
so many boxes so few trees...
125db @ 30 hz with a $100 driver is not my goal
as many dbs as i can get at 30 hz with a $100 driver, in 1 large box outdoors, is.
although the 2 x 12 jbl-gto TH looks good ..... 135db @ 20hz !!!?? for $180... corner loaded 🙁
125db @ 30 hz with a $100 driver is not my goal
as many dbs as i can get at 30 hz with a $100 driver, in 1 large box outdoors, is.
although the 2 x 12 jbl-gto TH looks good ..... 135db @ 20hz !!!?? for $180... corner loaded 🙁
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??? I thought you were at $200 so now it is $100?!
Load one of the GTO's in Horn Response, set the roll-off for 30Hz and see what happens?
Personally, I'd go for two of the GTO's since the design is done and gives you more than you want. You can never have too much unless it causes structure failure in the building--used outside that won't happen. 😀
$100 is better then $200.
you said 2 x 12 = 1 x 15, 2 x 15 = 1 x 18.
if i want to move the most air outdoors surely it makes sense to build a 1 x 18 box that kinda aims the bass in 1 direction? (horn)
500 rms and 98.5 db sensitive aint tooooooo shabby for $100.
Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer
and the design is done and the build is easy
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers.html
smaller and lighter then the 2 x jbl too.......
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a potentially excellent driver
i built a bombox recently with the 5.5" version of these, the one outstanding feature of the sound is the AWESOME bass it produces. i thought some of you might not be aware of this driver and might have some fun modeling its big brother as a subwoofer?
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=849
i built a bombox recently with the 5.5" version of these, the one outstanding feature of the sound is the AWESOME bass it produces. i thought some of you might not be aware of this driver and might have some fun modeling its big brother as a subwoofer?
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=849
honestly it makes very little sense to use high Xmax drivers in a horn design since you limited the power of excursion.
Drivers with large displacement (RE XXX, LMS ULTRA) are the best choices for the lowest octave performance. I want < 10Hz performance I will choose them over all other drivers. Horns are not a great choice for the lowest octave. I know the DTS-10 goes to 12Hz but with that tuning point its limited to about 40Hz (Remember Horns are pretty much 2 octave performance designs).
Driver and design choice is based on requirements. 8 LMS5400s in dual sealed boxes + 16,000Watts is hard to beat 😉 Heck, I would put my 2 LMS5400+8000Watts up against any horn design. Now saying that once the DIY Rotrary sub exists I will put one of those in build 4 F20s and sell my LMS5400s
If you do not care about < 20Hz (shame on you 😉 ) there is no reason to care about Xmax, just go with very high sensitivity drivers because they make sense for that application.
btw, whoever posted that high excursion cause linearity issues has never owned the LMS5400s or even the AV15 designs from AESpeaker. IMO The AV series is one of a kind when it comes to linearity, the Le value is just sick alone!!
Drivers with large displacement (RE XXX, LMS ULTRA) are the best choices for the lowest octave performance. I want < 10Hz performance I will choose them over all other drivers. Horns are not a great choice for the lowest octave. I know the DTS-10 goes to 12Hz but with that tuning point its limited to about 40Hz (Remember Horns are pretty much 2 octave performance designs).
Driver and design choice is based on requirements. 8 LMS5400s in dual sealed boxes + 16,000Watts is hard to beat 😉 Heck, I would put my 2 LMS5400+8000Watts up against any horn design. Now saying that once the DIY Rotrary sub exists I will put one of those in build 4 F20s and sell my LMS5400s
If you do not care about < 20Hz (shame on you 😉 ) there is no reason to care about Xmax, just go with very high sensitivity drivers because they make sense for that application.
btw, whoever posted that high excursion cause linearity issues has never owned the LMS5400s or even the AV15 designs from AESpeaker. IMO The AV series is one of a kind when it comes to linearity, the Le value is just sick alone!!
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Clone Lab gruppen amps out of China exist for < $1K right now. 8000Watts (Confirmed!!!)
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I already posted in your other thread the BEST design for with a sub < $100 driver.
The F-20 with MFW-15 drivers is impossible to beat from 20Hz to 80Hz. Of course the amp is going to cost you another $150...so lets say $250 total cost (including wood, amp, driver, etc assuming power tools exist).
The Dayton is a musical instrument woofer, looking at the graph it is probably rated 98.5dB at 1 KHz. The rating generally means average output over it's pass band--that includes up to 2 KHz for the Dayton.
If you want a subwoofer--use a 18" driver made for that application. The numbers won't be as high because it is running lower in frequency. At least is prevents surprises after you get done cutting plywood.
Amazon.com: JBL GT5-12 12-Inch Single-Voice-Coil Subwoofer: Electronics
The JBL's used in that tapped horn are $68.72 each. A pair runs $137.46--now consider the design is done, it exceeds your requirements and falls into the low end of your $100 to $200 range--they call that "no brainer". If it makes you feel better--call is a $100 pair of drivers with a $37.46 surcharge for home theater use.
If you want a subwoofer--use a 18" driver made for that application. The numbers won't be as high because it is running lower in frequency. At least is prevents surprises after you get done cutting plywood.
Amazon.com: JBL GT5-12 12-Inch Single-Voice-Coil Subwoofer: Electronics
The JBL's used in that tapped horn are $68.72 each. A pair runs $137.46--now consider the design is done, it exceeds your requirements and falls into the low end of your $100 to $200 range--they call that "no brainer". If it makes you feel better--call is a $100 pair of drivers with a $37.46 surcharge for home theater use.
That would be for continous power. A 15amp circuit can handle 3 to 4 times more for split seconds so even those with EP2500 amps producing 2000Watts can run them on 15 amp circuits and get 2000Watts for split seconds. I have 8000Watts and (4000Watts on each 20 amp circuit), I get full voltage for split seconds but definitely not continous. Adding a 220V/30amp circuit very soon.
Trying to not disrepect this site but this isnt the site to discuss top subwoofer designs, not many here care about HT and < 10Hz performance. There are better sites with those who are complete nuts about bass.
Of course I think the OP posted once he does not care about movies so maybe > 20Hz performance is what he is looking for.
I have 3 systems.
- 4x18 IB array
- twin LMS5400s sealed designs + twin AV15X midrange subs.
- twin ported TC2000 designs
- I also own about 20 other subwoofer drivers just for fun testing.
I still have to building some larger horn designs and waiting on a DIY rotrary design before I end my bass madness.
Again, its less to do with opinion about which is best and more about your very specific goals (ie. budget, room constraints, box size, etc).
Of course I think the OP posted once he does not care about movies so maybe > 20Hz performance is what he is looking for.
I have 3 systems.
- 4x18 IB array
- twin LMS5400s sealed designs + twin AV15X midrange subs.
- twin ported TC2000 designs
- I also own about 20 other subwoofer drivers just for fun testing.
I still have to building some larger horn designs and waiting on a DIY rotrary design before I end my bass madness.
Again, its less to do with opinion about which is best and more about your very specific goals (ie. budget, room constraints, box size, etc).
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What happened to you deciding on the MFW-15 in the F20 design that I linked from AVSforums.com a while back??
Again, that is an unmatch < $100 design. Its a 100% NO BRAINER decision if you want to keep the cost below $100 (minus amp). The driver is almost sold out now though so people better hurry and get it for $70.
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Lilmike's Cinema F-20 - AVS Forum
yep, saw it loved it, forgot about it with all the other talk/designs/opinions,
reminded now, love it again, tho it is huge !
its not huge....its a bass horn design.
You have to understand that subwoofer horns have to be large because of the size of the wavelengths they are handling. If your requirments include small box then you are not going to have the output/$$$ horns give you. You have budget, output and size.....pick 2!! You want to spend $100 and you want output then you have to sacrifice size and go big with horns.
You have to understand that subwoofer horns have to be large because of the size of the wavelengths they are handling. If your requirments include small box then you are not going to have the output/$$$ horns give you. You have budget, output and size.....pick 2!! You want to spend $100 and you want output then you have to sacrifice size and go big with horns.
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