Hello again Ernperkins
I appreciated your trouble yesterday and have been trying to replicate the graph you put up. However, I have been unable to produce similar looking curves to yours.
This might be because:
a) I am completely new to WinISD
b) I could not see the T/S parameters for the W15/8530K00 on Zaphaudio, so I used the manufacturers figures instead.
I have attached an image of my curve for the 0.5 cu.ft box tuned to 43 Hz with the driver parameters I used.
I wonder if you could see from this why my curve is are not more similar to yours?
Basically, I really like look of the Carrera project and want to try to make it work in a 0.38 cu.ft custom cabinet.
Are you saying that all I need to do is to buy the kit of drivers and crossovers, fit them in my cabinet but use a modified port? If so, that would be awesome!
My problem is that I can’t get it out of my mind that there may be other similar well regarded drivers in the SS range that are more suited to my smaller cabinet. The 15W8531K00 for example. I was hoping to model some other drivers in WinISD to check if this was the case.
However, I suppose if I found a “more suitable” driver, the existing crossover would probably need at least some rework.
Can I trouble you again for an opinion?
Many thanks, V.
Try Googling "WinISD tutorial". There's a good one on the midwestaudioclub site and a few youtube videos plus other sites. There are a couple versions of WinISD, I'm using WinISD 07.0.950.
Note: When entering the driver values into WinISD enter the Fs and Vas pair or the Mms and BL pair, but not both pairs. When you enter one pair of values WinISD will automatically calculate the other pair. If you enter both pairs WinISD will complain when you try to use the driver because your entered values don't exactly match its calculated values.
I always have trusted Zaph's measurements more than the manufacturers. It's listed under the 5.5" Driver comparison section: LINK. I attached his measured values.
Sorry, but I don't see the image in your post.
Yes. One other item I forgot to mention is that the drivers need to be positioned the same distance from the top of the baffle as the original Carrera cabinet. It's not important if you have more or less space below the woofer.
Yes, the crossover would need to change. There's an old saying: "A very good crossover can make budget drivers sound very good and a poor crossover can make the most expensive drivers sound terrible". What you have in the Carrera are great drivers and a great crossover.
IMO you wouldn't hear the difference in the low end if you changed drivers as the 15W8530K00 puts out an incredible amount of bass for its size. And you're only losing about 5 Hz in the low end by going from 0.5 ft3 to 0.38 ft3.
One last item concerning the bass. Room placement makes a large difference in the bass response. If necessary, you can shorten the port to put in more of a hump in the bass or lengthen it to flatten out the bass. Paul talks about this in his Carrera write-up.
Hope this helps!
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Hello Ernperkins,
I must start by saying thanks so much for your trouble!
I think the point you make about not trusting the manufacturers figures was backed up by the figures I saw on "audioexcite" and is a key lesson for me on this journey.
Even without going back to WniISD, I can see already that your figures are massively different to mine, which probably explains why I could not match your graph.
Therefore, I suspect I have been wasting my time using the manufacturers figures to search for a "better" alternative to the Carrera's 15W8530K00 for use in my smaller cabinet.
Conclusion - I will stick with the kit as designed!
By the way, do you know if anyone has taken up the issue of the different figures with any manufacturer?
Taking note of your comment about positioning the drivers. My cabinet is about 5/8" shorter than the 14" Carrera plus I need to get my port on the front, so it is going to be tight.
One option would be to remove the flange completely from the tweeter so that the two drivers could come closer together. In this way I could maintain the 2 3/4" dimension to the top of the cabinet.
Would you say the distance from the tweeter to the top is more important than the spacing between the two drivers?
I may have to offset the port towards one or other of the bottom corners as well.
Thanks again. V.
I must start by saying thanks so much for your trouble!
I think the point you make about not trusting the manufacturers figures was backed up by the figures I saw on "audioexcite" and is a key lesson for me on this journey.
Even without going back to WniISD, I can see already that your figures are massively different to mine, which probably explains why I could not match your graph.
Therefore, I suspect I have been wasting my time using the manufacturers figures to search for a "better" alternative to the Carrera's 15W8530K00 for use in my smaller cabinet.
Conclusion - I will stick with the kit as designed!
By the way, do you know if anyone has taken up the issue of the different figures with any manufacturer?
Taking note of your comment about positioning the drivers. My cabinet is about 5/8" shorter than the 14" Carrera plus I need to get my port on the front, so it is going to be tight.
One option would be to remove the flange completely from the tweeter so that the two drivers could come closer together. In this way I could maintain the 2 3/4" dimension to the top of the cabinet.
Would you say the distance from the tweeter to the top is more important than the spacing between the two drivers?
I may have to offset the port towards one or other of the bottom corners as well.
Thanks again. V.
I have the 8530 k00 in 11 litre boxes with a 2x7 or 8” port(can’t remember exactly). I have a big volume at the back of the speaker that is only for the crossover and not part of the speaker volume. It is about 4-5 litres. The back of the actual speaker volume is an internal divider. The port passes through this crossover zone and also a couple of inches into the speaker volume. Otherwise I couldn’t have put a port that long in the box unless it exited out the top. They sound amazing and the bass is stunning. I used X-sim to design a crossover. I traced the SS factory FR and ZR curves for use in X-Sim.
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Hello GringoAudio, thanks for your trouble and I'm pleased you are happy with these units
I am too far down the line with the cabinets for this project to change much, so I will go with the 8530k00/Hiquphon and elbowed port.
The crossover is the one area that is not fixed but I have no experience designing one. As you pointed out, there are programs available to help, but I have become a bit hung up with the differences in FR curves that are published by the manufacturers and those by independent sources.
You have had good results using the Scanspeak data, although it looks very different from audioexcite.com. data.
I wonder how different the crossover design would have ended up using different input curves and if the final speakers would have sounded any different?
I guess they would because I read a lot about how important fine tuning the crossover is.
So I guess my next decision will be, do I go with an existing crossover design or use some software to design my own?
If I try the latter, what data do I use to base it on (Scanspeak or independent)
Any comments would be gratefully received!
BR Verona
I am too far down the line with the cabinets for this project to change much, so I will go with the 8530k00/Hiquphon and elbowed port.
The crossover is the one area that is not fixed but I have no experience designing one. As you pointed out, there are programs available to help, but I have become a bit hung up with the differences in FR curves that are published by the manufacturers and those by independent sources.
You have had good results using the Scanspeak data, although it looks very different from audioexcite.com. data.
I wonder how different the crossover design would have ended up using different input curves and if the final speakers would have sounded any different?
I guess they would because I read a lot about how important fine tuning the crossover is.
So I guess my next decision will be, do I go with an existing crossover design or use some software to design my own?
If I try the latter, what data do I use to base it on (Scanspeak or independent)
Any comments would be gratefully received!
BR Verona
As you have a different tweeter my crossover won’t help you. Just a coil on the woofer anyway. The tweeter had a few more components.
X-Sim is not that hard to figure out. It is a free download.
Some say the driver FR and ZR curves should be measured in the box you intend to use. I’d like to be set up for that. I have tried to see what kind of final system response I get using the components Zaph uses for the drivers I have and also another guy who uses the same drivers. Their component choices don’t give good FR or ZR curves using the driver curves I traced from the Scanspeak spec sheets. But my speakers sound fantastic.... to me.
X-Sim is not that hard to figure out. It is a free download.
Some say the driver FR and ZR curves should be measured in the box you intend to use. I’d like to be set up for that. I have tried to see what kind of final system response I get using the components Zaph uses for the drivers I have and also another guy who uses the same drivers. Their component choices don’t give good FR or ZR curves using the driver curves I traced from the Scanspeak spec sheets. But my speakers sound fantastic.... to me.
Hello Gringo,
So you like Scanspeak!
I have X-Sim so will give it a go. If its not too difficult I suppose I could try copying both the Scanspeak curves and the audioexcite ones and see how different the crossover designs come out. Possibly averaging the two.
I don't intend playing around with the crossovers later unless they sound awful! In which case I will probably use an existing arrangement.
Thanks for the help.
So you like Scanspeak!
I have X-Sim so will give it a go. If its not too difficult I suppose I could try copying both the Scanspeak curves and the audioexcite ones and see how different the crossover designs come out. Possibly averaging the two.
I don't intend playing around with the crossovers later unless they sound awful! In which case I will probably use an existing arrangement.
Thanks for the help.
Sorry I’ve not posted my crossover yet. The one I initially simulated had a very slight lift through all the frequencies above the crossover point of 2.5khz. I was convinced that it was what I liked but it sounded too hot, bright and edgy to my buddies. I love horn/brass music that shreds your ears. Or I thought I did until I bought some Sonus Faber Venere 3.0 as a reference speaker to compare my DIY stuff to. Even this Sonus Faber which is brighter than their more expensive classic lines was way more ‘polite’ than my DIY Scanspeak speakers. So I hit the X-sim again and made the response pretty much flat. What is amazing is how flat the impedance curve is too. My Arcam AVR-350 simply cannot drive the Sonus Fabers in a controlled manner but the Scanspeaks love it.
And yes I love the Scanspeak sound. It is much warmer than the Sonus Fabers that were a lot of money... even as a pre-owned purchase.
And yes I love the Scanspeak sound. It is much warmer than the Sonus Fabers that were a lot of money... even as a pre-owned purchase.
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