Thanks kfr01🙂 Always glad to hear of another happy fellow enthusiast!!
My current setup is an Ark Audio 12V2 with a Ark Kar 400.2 with 400 watts RMS, get's it on well and sounds very very good. I have a 50x4 Arc Kar 400.4 bi-amped to my front kickpanel components, I do prefer more power but it is a very nice amp. If I go back to passives I can bridge it to 200 watts per side, that would be better but then I lose to much tuning ability with my current setup.
My truck was not built for SPL, to many absorbing surfaces designed to control road noise and reflections. With one ID Max and 1kw in a temp box firing accross the back of the cab I could still hit 138db of real musical bass though, only needed 130 for comps(I know, awfully high for an SQ competition). With two of the subs firing up, 2kw power, still hit 138 in thier permanent location.
But, I could make it about impossible to talk yet still have real bass, kind of fun for certain situations but rarely used and never for anything like actually listening to real music, lol! When in the business you have to make noise sometimes😉
My current setup is an Ark Audio 12V2 with a Ark Kar 400.2 with 400 watts RMS, get's it on well and sounds very very good. I have a 50x4 Arc Kar 400.4 bi-amped to my front kickpanel components, I do prefer more power but it is a very nice amp. If I go back to passives I can bridge it to 200 watts per side, that would be better but then I lose to much tuning ability with my current setup.
My truck was not built for SPL, to many absorbing surfaces designed to control road noise and reflections. With one ID Max and 1kw in a temp box firing accross the back of the cab I could still hit 138db of real musical bass though, only needed 130 for comps(I know, awfully high for an SQ competition). With two of the subs firing up, 2kw power, still hit 138 in thier permanent location.
But, I could make it about impossible to talk yet still have real bass, kind of fun for certain situations but rarely used and never for anything like actually listening to real music, lol! When in the business you have to make noise sometimes😉
kfr01 said:
well DAH!!! I've already planned my system.... two 15inch Peerless subwoofers off 450watts each, 8inch peerless woofers in the front doors, with suitable tweeters, off 150watts each 😛 lol
Zeljko M said:
how can you not agree with my post?
my post was saying that having 4000 watts is only 10dB louder than having 400 watts... lol "only" 😛Well, for starters, I figure that the car audio world has gone berzerk with the power requirements.
In my car, I have 380W nominal system power. Currently, I have 80W of that disconnected from source and speakers.
In the last competition that I was in, the car hit 130dB SPL. This is more than adequate for me. I've only ever used the top of the volume scale for SPL testing, never for listening.
So... I personally don't see a need for multi kilowatt amplifiers, but if that's your thing, then go for it.
Speaker wattage ratings are always a puzzle to me. I've seen speakers rated at 500W that my "measly" 60W sub amp has turned into a smoking ruin. I've seen speakers rated for 10W that will take the same power for an hour without noticible signs of distress. I've always figured that the wattage ratings on speakers is just a marketing number, with the possible exception of JL, where they tell you what they mean by the rating. (For a JL, the wattage rating is the RMS power that the voice coil can dissipate for 8 hours without damage.)
That being said, I don't think there are many DIY designs for amplifiers that big, nor for power supplies. I think it's reasonably safe to say that people who don't already know enough about power supply design to build one that large probably should not. SMPS design isn't all that complex, but as the amount of output power increasees, the level of precision required to make certain that you don't destroy something increases exponentially. With several thousand watts of power needed from the power supply, the potential for disaster becomes very high.
I'd like to address one other issue brough up, and that is competition. You can compete with self-made equipment, however, you will be restricted to the "pro" class. You cannot compete as an amateur with equipment that you build yourself. now that I have a 1/3 octave bass equaliser in my system, I would be restricted to the pro class if I wanted to compete. If I get everything that I want to get done, I may well choose to do this for the 2006 season. (I already know that it won't be ready for this summer.) By then I hope to be using amplifiers that I build myself.
In my car, I have 380W nominal system power. Currently, I have 80W of that disconnected from source and speakers.
In the last competition that I was in, the car hit 130dB SPL. This is more than adequate for me. I've only ever used the top of the volume scale for SPL testing, never for listening.
So... I personally don't see a need for multi kilowatt amplifiers, but if that's your thing, then go for it.
Speaker wattage ratings are always a puzzle to me. I've seen speakers rated at 500W that my "measly" 60W sub amp has turned into a smoking ruin. I've seen speakers rated for 10W that will take the same power for an hour without noticible signs of distress. I've always figured that the wattage ratings on speakers is just a marketing number, with the possible exception of JL, where they tell you what they mean by the rating. (For a JL, the wattage rating is the RMS power that the voice coil can dissipate for 8 hours without damage.)
That being said, I don't think there are many DIY designs for amplifiers that big, nor for power supplies. I think it's reasonably safe to say that people who don't already know enough about power supply design to build one that large probably should not. SMPS design isn't all that complex, but as the amount of output power increasees, the level of precision required to make certain that you don't destroy something increases exponentially. With several thousand watts of power needed from the power supply, the potential for disaster becomes very high.
I'd like to address one other issue brough up, and that is competition. You can compete with self-made equipment, however, you will be restricted to the "pro" class. You cannot compete as an amateur with equipment that you build yourself. now that I have a 1/3 octave bass equaliser in my system, I would be restricted to the pro class if I wanted to compete. If I get everything that I want to get done, I may well choose to do this for the 2006 season. (I already know that it won't be ready for this summer.) By then I hope to be using amplifiers that I build myself.
hi im new here. i have been working with the u.k. built VIBE equipment for a couple of years and have found it to beat international companies such as audiobahn, rockford fosgate etc. there amps are noted for being particularly low wattage for the sound output. there most powerful amp being a monoblock 1400W @1ohm. this kicks out more sound than any ive found. i am just starting to play around with the actual workings of amps and such so if any one can point me in the direction of any begginners websites, it would be much appreciated.
big amp
Hi all, im a newbie here, but definately not a noob to car audio. I was reading all 5 pages of replies to the original message, and I still believe his original question has not been replied to properly yet. There were alot of people bashing the guy just becuase of his interest in a very large wattage amplifier, which, makes me kinda worry if I should continue subscribing this forum. I may ask some sort of question in the future, and will be sickened if I get bashed for help. I understand totally, the insanity associated with the car audio spl drag scene, where its more or less a shootout of SPL and considerations for SQ is less. There are alot of amplifier companies produce amplifiers out there, that, after looking at a amplifier product, sat back and thought "could I improve that design??!?", or, "wow, thats alot of money for that amp, I wonder if I could make my own with similar qualities - Im not stupid, i can read a schematic and know basic electronics" . Again, I feel as if this is what the original poster may have been considering. SO, now that Ive added my unsolicitated 2 cents - I too would like to know if anyone knows of where to obtain instructions to make an extremely large wattage amplifier. Or, even guidelines or help on modifying your existing car amplifier for extended output. I dont know why this is such a big issue. I had the apparent common misconception that this is a fun hobby. I hope some of the members here prove me wrong.
Thanks
snoopdan
Hi all, im a newbie here, but definately not a noob to car audio. I was reading all 5 pages of replies to the original message, and I still believe his original question has not been replied to properly yet. There were alot of people bashing the guy just becuase of his interest in a very large wattage amplifier, which, makes me kinda worry if I should continue subscribing this forum. I may ask some sort of question in the future, and will be sickened if I get bashed for help. I understand totally, the insanity associated with the car audio spl drag scene, where its more or less a shootout of SPL and considerations for SQ is less. There are alot of amplifier companies produce amplifiers out there, that, after looking at a amplifier product, sat back and thought "could I improve that design??!?", or, "wow, thats alot of money for that amp, I wonder if I could make my own with similar qualities - Im not stupid, i can read a schematic and know basic electronics" . Again, I feel as if this is what the original poster may have been considering. SO, now that Ive added my unsolicitated 2 cents - I too would like to know if anyone knows of where to obtain instructions to make an extremely large wattage amplifier. Or, even guidelines or help on modifying your existing car amplifier for extended output. I dont know why this is such a big issue. I had the apparent common misconception that this is a fun hobby. I hope some of the members here prove me wrong.
Thanks
snoopdan
I figured that I did handle this... But I'll re-iterate.
That's a LOT of amplifier. The power supply for such an amplifier is a daunting task, to say the least, and even if I had a plan for building one, I'm not sure that I'd lightly just hand it over. The potential for damage and destruction that someone could wreak with that much sheer power by doing something dumb is just too great, and I am not going to be the one left liable for some fool burning his car to the g round, or worse, injuring or killing themselves.
As such, there are several more modest SMPS designs around on the 'net. Rod Elliot provides a lot of audio designs, and his Project 89 is a good place to start. (Sergio hangs around here, and was, I believe the original contributor of that project)
My advise would be to build a more modest design first, then see about improving it. I honestly think that someone should know what they're doing before attemptint a project of this scope.
For the amplifier that you already have: Yes, you can probably improve it. Identify the output devices, usually silicon transistors, but possibly MOSFETs. Go buy more of them. You'll see that they're generally connected with several devices in parallel, with a low value, high wattage resistor on the emiter of the device (The source on a MOSFET device) to enfoce load sharing. Put more of them (With appropriate resistors to match what's existing) in parallel, and you can improve the amplifier's ability to handle low impedance loads. As long as the power supply is up to it, that's an easy way to increase output.
If the power supply is NOT up to it, you could try increasing the switching frequency of the oscillator section. That will allow a SMPS to put out more power, but only a bit. You're really going to need a larger transformer, and more switching devices to deliver the extra current to the amplifier stage. That's going to increase losses, and reduce efficiency. At some point it's going to cease to matter because you're going to need a second engine just to run the bank of alternators to supply the amp. 🙂 4kW is a lot of power, no matter how you slice it... I suppse that's only about 5.5 hp, and with a 60 something percent efficiency rating, (Reasonably good for a class A-B amplifier) that's about 9hp or about 6700W power input to the amp. At 14V that's about 480 amps of current, so 5 100A alternators should do. 🙂 We could probably cut that to 3 100A alternators if the amp is a class D amp, which is much more efficient than a class A-B. For pure class A, with about 22% efficiency, you'd need almost 18,200W of input power, (About 25 hp) At 14V, that's 1300A of current... That's a lot of alternators. Of course, you couold use less alternators, if you have lots of batteries available. I don't imagine that they'd last long at those kind of drains.
Let's call it a 350A drain for a class D amplifier at 12.5V, (This assumes close to an ideal class D amp to get 4000W, but that's okay.) You're NOT going to get better than battery voltage at that kind of drain, so I'm not going to assume 14V at that point. (I don't think you'll get battery voltage, but that's okay.) Now you need to switch 350A through your transformer, at whatever frequency you can. You start to see why this isn't a DIY starter project! This is going to require larege bus bars, and a very large and heavy transformer, no matter how you slice it. There is also a very real danger of overheating, and you can bet that anything that I'd have that will take that kind of power in my car is going to need fuses.
I just don't see this as the kind of project where anyone who SHOULD be attempting it would need to be asking questions, or looking for a design on the 'net. This is the kind of thing that one has the experience to do, and is probably developing their own design.
Possibly later, when 72V+ electric cars are common, this might change things. A higher avaialble battery voltage would make a lot of difference.
That's a LOT of amplifier. The power supply for such an amplifier is a daunting task, to say the least, and even if I had a plan for building one, I'm not sure that I'd lightly just hand it over. The potential for damage and destruction that someone could wreak with that much sheer power by doing something dumb is just too great, and I am not going to be the one left liable for some fool burning his car to the g round, or worse, injuring or killing themselves.
As such, there are several more modest SMPS designs around on the 'net. Rod Elliot provides a lot of audio designs, and his Project 89 is a good place to start. (Sergio hangs around here, and was, I believe the original contributor of that project)
My advise would be to build a more modest design first, then see about improving it. I honestly think that someone should know what they're doing before attemptint a project of this scope.
For the amplifier that you already have: Yes, you can probably improve it. Identify the output devices, usually silicon transistors, but possibly MOSFETs. Go buy more of them. You'll see that they're generally connected with several devices in parallel, with a low value, high wattage resistor on the emiter of the device (The source on a MOSFET device) to enfoce load sharing. Put more of them (With appropriate resistors to match what's existing) in parallel, and you can improve the amplifier's ability to handle low impedance loads. As long as the power supply is up to it, that's an easy way to increase output.
If the power supply is NOT up to it, you could try increasing the switching frequency of the oscillator section. That will allow a SMPS to put out more power, but only a bit. You're really going to need a larger transformer, and more switching devices to deliver the extra current to the amplifier stage. That's going to increase losses, and reduce efficiency. At some point it's going to cease to matter because you're going to need a second engine just to run the bank of alternators to supply the amp. 🙂 4kW is a lot of power, no matter how you slice it... I suppse that's only about 5.5 hp, and with a 60 something percent efficiency rating, (Reasonably good for a class A-B amplifier) that's about 9hp or about 6700W power input to the amp. At 14V that's about 480 amps of current, so 5 100A alternators should do. 🙂 We could probably cut that to 3 100A alternators if the amp is a class D amp, which is much more efficient than a class A-B. For pure class A, with about 22% efficiency, you'd need almost 18,200W of input power, (About 25 hp) At 14V, that's 1300A of current... That's a lot of alternators. Of course, you couold use less alternators, if you have lots of batteries available. I don't imagine that they'd last long at those kind of drains.
Let's call it a 350A drain for a class D amplifier at 12.5V, (This assumes close to an ideal class D amp to get 4000W, but that's okay.) You're NOT going to get better than battery voltage at that kind of drain, so I'm not going to assume 14V at that point. (I don't think you'll get battery voltage, but that's okay.) Now you need to switch 350A through your transformer, at whatever frequency you can. You start to see why this isn't a DIY starter project! This is going to require larege bus bars, and a very large and heavy transformer, no matter how you slice it. There is also a very real danger of overheating, and you can bet that anything that I'd have that will take that kind of power in my car is going to need fuses.
I just don't see this as the kind of project where anyone who SHOULD be attempting it would need to be asking questions, or looking for a design on the 'net. This is the kind of thing that one has the experience to do, and is probably developing their own design.
Possibly later, when 72V+ electric cars are common, this might change things. A higher avaialble battery voltage would make a lot of difference.
xplod1236 said:
sorry i didnt read the whole thread so i'll just try to answer this question
for 4k watts (rms) u need at least 2 batteries and a new alternator .
now for the amp , it should be class d , it will be very difficult to make the power supply , u will need at least 2 power transformers and it will cost u more than buying an allready made one .if u got no experiense dont even try it
I have a funny feeling that 2 batteries, and a new alternator isn't exactly going to be able to keep up with a 3000 watt amp.
hey, I'll make a powersupply capable of 4000watts, if someone else makes the amp, and provides the batteries to run it.. 😛 lol
hey, I'll make a powersupply capable of 4000watts, if someone else makes the amp, and provides the batteries to run it.. 😛 lol
the amp wont dissipate 4kw constantly , i saw a car with 3kw amp (many amps) with 2 125ah batteries , i think 3 of those will handle 4kw peak power
I once saw on the jbl homepage a van that had 10K watt, yes 10.000 watts of amplifier power! I don´t remember if it was filled with batteries or subwoofers.
Hello, happy new year!
Look, Rod Eliiot design is very good for beginer, but it can't give you einough power.
For 2kW power suply I already tried something without feedback but I'll try now with 3525 and output control with about 8 fets.
That is wery important in power suply like that, but you need to play with transformer a lot. The problem is when you drive it without an output load. the 3525 then reduce frequency of switching and fets don't like it. 🙂
For test I use irfz44 because they are not expencive.
I have 10cm2 transformer, and i suffer a DIY virus.
I think that +/-90V (minimum) is a good start, and it is ok for ZETA amp. (3,2kW @ 2ohm).
Normaly i think about some changes, like more output devices and else.
I'll send you some pitures off my projects when I finish them (not so soon).
Best wishes for new year!
Zeljko M.
Ah, don't worry about alternators! you can use 180Ah truck batery! at least 6 of them will do
Look, Rod Eliiot design is very good for beginer, but it can't give you einough power.
For 2kW power suply I already tried something without feedback but I'll try now with 3525 and output control with about 8 fets.
That is wery important in power suply like that, but you need to play with transformer a lot. The problem is when you drive it without an output load. the 3525 then reduce frequency of switching and fets don't like it. 🙂
For test I use irfz44 because they are not expencive.
I have 10cm2 transformer, and i suffer a DIY virus.
I think that +/-90V (minimum) is a good start, and it is ok for ZETA amp. (3,2kW @ 2ohm).
Normaly i think about some changes, like more output devices and else.
I'll send you some pitures off my projects when I finish them (not so soon).
Best wishes for new year!
Zeljko M.
Ah, don't worry about alternators! you can use 180Ah truck batery! at least 6 of them will do
SkinnyBoy said:
how can you not agree with my post?
Not necessarily it depends on a lot of things (everything). It can be 20db louder
No, it can't. But for those who don't know enough to design their own SMPS which can provide enough power, it's a good idea to start with something that will teach them the basics, before they start dealing with several kW of power... Of course that's just my opinion.Zeljko M said:
It seems to me that a smaller project which has a fighting chance of working is a better starting point than a very large project which has a large chance of failure. It's always best to learn the basics before moving on to something larger. A smaller SMPS, which could sustain a 100W amp makes for a reasonable starting point, and will give the builder a good idea of what to expect from a SMPS. Also, if you experiment with it, and blow it up, you're dealing with a couple hundred watts, not several thousand. As such it is safer to experiment with. By experimenting with something smaller, you can better learn how to make something larger.
Interesting... I had figured that the laws of physics were the same everywhere on this particular planet...Hayden said:
Give the same source material, speaker efficiency, enclosure, and listening environment, 10 times the amount of power (ie 4000W vs 400W) will result in an SPL level increase of 10dB. Of course if you change the enclosure, speaker, or environment, then all bets are off. It may well be that having 4kW of power available gives you options which you don't have with 400W of power, but overall, the rules apply, and unless you change something else, 10X the ampunt of power results in a 10dB SPL increase.
[James Doohan impersonation]Ye canna change the laws of physics, Cap'n![/James Doohan impersonation]
Hi,
Look, my first project was from Elliot page and you can realy learn a lot from it.
Now I'm interested about geting sinus wave from sg3525.
I saw Power Amper A class with sinus wave power suply.
Dou you know anything about it?
Look, my first project was from Elliot page and you can realy learn a lot from it.
Now I'm interested about geting sinus wave from sg3525.
I saw Power Amper A class with sinus wave power suply.
Dou you know anything about it?
If you want a sine wave, get a sine wave generator. The SG3525 is a PWM controller, it's not really geared to doing that...
- Status
- Not open for further replies.