I am considering designing a 4+1/2 way floostanding speaker.
Does anyone forsee any problems with the following design?
2 peerless xls 10 each driven by 250w rms each in sealed enclusures of 18 litres playing up to 120 hz.
1 precision devices 8 inch mid/bass driver in a slealed enclosure driven with 200w rms playing from 120hz to 4/500 hz.
1 5-6.5 inch high power midrange driver playing from 4/500hz to 4/5 KHZ. Receiving roughly 100w rms.
1 high end dome tweeter, 50w rms ish.
An active crossover network will be emplyed before the amplification stage. Four amplifiers will be used for each speaker.
Anything glaringly stupid with this design please tell me, I want to design a floorstander which does not require a subwoofer which will play very loud very cleanly which is no bigger than a conventional large floorstander. Thanks for your time. I am new to designing hifi speakers, my goal is to comnine the high spl's of professional audio with the clarity of hifi.
Does anyone forsee any problems with the following design?
2 peerless xls 10 each driven by 250w rms each in sealed enclusures of 18 litres playing up to 120 hz.
1 precision devices 8 inch mid/bass driver in a slealed enclosure driven with 200w rms playing from 120hz to 4/500 hz.
1 5-6.5 inch high power midrange driver playing from 4/500hz to 4/5 KHZ. Receiving roughly 100w rms.
1 high end dome tweeter, 50w rms ish.
An active crossover network will be emplyed before the amplification stage. Four amplifiers will be used for each speaker.
Anything glaringly stupid with this design please tell me, I want to design a floorstander which does not require a subwoofer which will play very loud very cleanly which is no bigger than a conventional large floorstander. Thanks for your time. I am new to designing hifi speakers, my goal is to comnine the high spl's of professional audio with the clarity of hifi.
Hi,
Frankly if you have a simple wish it has been done before. Integrating
subs into speakers has been done, as has 3-way speakers that simply
don't need subs as the bass end is more than adequate.
As ever walk don't run when you start. The only thing guaranteed if
you are new to designing speakers is you will get it wrong, and won't
know that it is wrong. Active set ups are particular prone to stick the
drivers in boxes and cross them over, it will work in a fashion but poorly.
The main problem is what you are not saying, more than what you are.
Conventional loudspeakers, by design choices, cover a wide range of
end user max SPL requirements, and there is a blur between domestic
and studio / professional requirements, many speakers cover both,
but domestically are generally used in bigger rooms at reduced SPL.
It is not the way to start designing speakers, better than anything else.
That is simply not going to happen, period, and you won't enjoy it.
The art of compromise requires extensive experience.
High SPL is the worst target for a beginner, quality is always 1st.
Understanding SPL requirements properly (for any speaker size)
is half the battle, many still get it all completely wrong.
rgds, sreten.
undefinition
(see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
Zaph|Audio
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
RJB Audio Projects
Jay's DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
Great free SPICE Emulator : SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Tool Folder
Frankly if you have a simple wish it has been done before. Integrating
subs into speakers has been done, as has 3-way speakers that simply
don't need subs as the bass end is more than adequate.
As ever walk don't run when you start. The only thing guaranteed if
you are new to designing speakers is you will get it wrong, and won't
know that it is wrong. Active set ups are particular prone to stick the
drivers in boxes and cross them over, it will work in a fashion but poorly.
The main problem is what you are not saying, more than what you are.
Conventional loudspeakers, by design choices, cover a wide range of
end user max SPL requirements, and there is a blur between domestic
and studio / professional requirements, many speakers cover both,
but domestically are generally used in bigger rooms at reduced SPL.
It is not the way to start designing speakers, better than anything else.
That is simply not going to happen, period, and you won't enjoy it.
The art of compromise requires extensive experience.
High SPL is the worst target for a beginner, quality is always 1st.
Understanding SPL requirements properly (for any speaker size)
is half the battle, many still get it all completely wrong.
rgds, sreten.
undefinition
(see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com
Zaph|Audio
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
RJB Audio Projects
Jay's DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Speaker Design Works
HTGuide Forum - A Guide to HTguide.com Completed Speaker Designs.
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
Great free SPICE Emulator : SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Tool Folder
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HI, thanks for your rapid reply. I would like to know more about why this particular design would not work very well. I have some experience building high quality 18inch pro audio subwoofers which can develop incredible spl's, but only down to 35hz. I am fully aware that I could never repoduce 125db+ from 4 peerless drivers in sealed cabinets and certainly not down to 20hz.
If the crossover network were implemented well (and the amplifiers appropriately gain matched) what would be the problem with this design? For me high spl is an intergral requirement. I currently use a pair of wharfedale valdus 500's with a nad c370. One of the flaws with this speaker is the lack of capability of the tweeter, hence the protection kicks in regually. I wanted to design a speaker free from such flaws.
I have used them with an 18 inch fane xb driver in a large ported box and the result was impressive even though the fane only had 150w rms going to it (crossed over at 75hz), the lows were incredible and the valdus midbass presented an impressive thump. I wanted to recreate the experience of that in floorstanding speakers no bigger than the valdus. Given that the fane xb only had 150 w I would assume 4 peerless drivers on 250w rms each should be able to generate more bass than the fane sub did on this occasion.
If high quality drivers were used for the remainder of the spectrum and appropriate crossover points chosen then I cannot see why the design would not work.
Thanks for your time I greatly appreciate your input.
If the crossover network were implemented well (and the amplifiers appropriately gain matched) what would be the problem with this design? For me high spl is an intergral requirement. I currently use a pair of wharfedale valdus 500's with a nad c370. One of the flaws with this speaker is the lack of capability of the tweeter, hence the protection kicks in regually. I wanted to design a speaker free from such flaws.
I have used them with an 18 inch fane xb driver in a large ported box and the result was impressive even though the fane only had 150w rms going to it (crossed over at 75hz), the lows were incredible and the valdus midbass presented an impressive thump. I wanted to recreate the experience of that in floorstanding speakers no bigger than the valdus. Given that the fane xb only had 150 w I would assume 4 peerless drivers on 250w rms each should be able to generate more bass than the fane sub did on this occasion.
If high quality drivers were used for the remainder of the spectrum and appropriate crossover points chosen then I cannot see why the design would not work.
Thanks for your time I greatly appreciate your input.
Your needs in a domestic environment will be different. As you move into a smaller room the bass interacts with room modes. Due to this, the location of your bass units becomes critical and having them tied to the mains therefore makes little sense. This also suggests that the mains don't necessarily need to go to the low extremes.
I cannot think of a floorstander which goes as low as a pair of peerless xls 10's could do. I know valdus 500's were cheap speakers designed to go relatively loud hence bass extension was not a priority (with three 8inch drivers they barely made it to 40hz). But still even high end large floorstanders like monitor audio pl300's only go to 28hz and thats a manufacturer's spec.
With regards to having the bass tied to the floorstander, surely room equilization for each could solve this problem if it were done appropriately before the amplification stage.
Also I like to listen music really loud, in a "domestic environment" I like to pressurise the room with bass so traditional floorstanders have never been able to provide the output I desire.
Also subwoofers are just more boxes in a room I don't really want.
Thanks again for your input.
With regards to having the bass tied to the floorstander, surely room equilization for each could solve this problem if it were done appropriately before the amplification stage.
Also I like to listen music really loud, in a "domestic environment" I like to pressurise the room with bass so traditional floorstanders have never been able to provide the output I desire.
Also subwoofers are just more boxes in a room I don't really want.
Thanks again for your input.
sorry i misread your last statement. "mains don't necessarily need to go to the low extremes. " if i want only two speakers (no sub) and massive output levels is this idea a good way to go? They will be in a large room and equilised for room abnormailities.
If it still seems like a bad idea, which it may well be, can you suggest an alternative please. Thanks.
If it still seems like a bad idea, which it may well be, can you suggest an alternative please. Thanks.
I lust after a well integrated 4-Way
I would , and have contemplated building such a beast, but really do not have the listening space big enough
1 mid bass is usually enough with the appropriate midrange and tweeter.
I would start with a 15inch bass unit and half size each next driver down for dispersal reasons, although a 10 inch midbass is a good choice.
I thought the XLS was designed and sold as a subwoofer
4inch mids and any reasonably good tweeter.
One day I'll have the money and skills, tri amping can be a good cheat but doing this passively would be a challenge.
The other thing ___ Do you have a wife or life partner who would live with the pair of refrigerators in the lounge room???
I would , and have contemplated building such a beast, but really do not have the listening space big enough
1 mid bass is usually enough with the appropriate midrange and tweeter.
I would start with a 15inch bass unit and half size each next driver down for dispersal reasons, although a 10 inch midbass is a good choice.
I thought the XLS was designed and sold as a subwoofer
4inch mids and any reasonably good tweeter.
One day I'll have the money and skills, tri amping can be a good cheat but doing this passively would be a challenge.
The other thing ___ Do you have a wife or life partner who would live with the pair of refrigerators in the lounge room???
I'm only 19....im a student at leeds university, I live in a house with 9 people and we regually listen at antisocial volumes throughout the day and night through these http://is01.thegumtree.com/image/big/86434297.jpg space is not a problem, heck if could afford it id have a funktion 1 stack in my living room.
I wanted to create something no bigger than the valdus, (even with the xls drivers its only going to be 26 cm wide if i mount the drivers flush on a double layered baffle).
Make no mistake these are going to be properly full range, down to 20 hz, which should be forcefull with 4x 10 inch subwoofers. Yes the xls are sub drivers not bass drivers, but I am using them only up to 120hz, at which point a pro audio precision devices 8 inch woofer will take over until virtually all excursion requirements are gone until the mid takes over. Is there something wrong with the xls driver? Everyone seems to think it would not work in a floorstander...
I wanted to create something no bigger than the valdus, (even with the xls drivers its only going to be 26 cm wide if i mount the drivers flush on a double layered baffle).
Make no mistake these are going to be properly full range, down to 20 hz, which should be forcefull with 4x 10 inch subwoofers. Yes the xls are sub drivers not bass drivers, but I am using them only up to 120hz, at which point a pro audio precision devices 8 inch woofer will take over until virtually all excursion requirements are gone until the mid takes over. Is there something wrong with the xls driver? Everyone seems to think it would not work in a floorstander...
No problem with this design. use a 4" instead 5-7"
2x10" 20-100Hz
8" 100-800Hz
4" 800-3000Hz
1" 3000-20000Hz
It is possible to do it in passive.
It is a big speaker, at least 11" width and 45" high.
But if you are a beginner, it will be a nightmare to tune the set-up.
There are a lot of things to know to do a correct mounting of the drivers.
2x10" 20-100Hz
8" 100-800Hz
4" 800-3000Hz
1" 3000-20000Hz
It is possible to do it in passive.
It is a big speaker, at least 11" width and 45" high.
But if you are a beginner, it will be a nightmare to tune the set-up.
There are a lot of things to know to do a correct mounting of the drivers.
2x10" 20-100Hz
8" 100-800Hz
4" 800-3000Hz
1" 3000-20000Hz
Ill use this as a rough guide instead. Can you recommend a 4inch driver for this application and a tweeter if possible. Sound quality is of equal importance to loudness to me.
Was possibly thinking of active split to seperate 100 hz (as subs will need 500w rms a side), then 3 way passive? is this a good idea?
8" 100-800Hz
4" 800-3000Hz
1" 3000-20000Hz
Ill use this as a rough guide instead. Can you recommend a 4inch driver for this application and a tweeter if possible. Sound quality is of equal importance to loudness to me.
Was possibly thinking of active split to seperate 100 hz (as subs will need 500w rms a side), then 3 way passive? is this a good idea?
I'm with jerome69 but I'd be picking a mid that was happy 400 - 4000 even if I had to go MTM and i would use the midbass
actually the design I have in my head is this configuration using a Vifa M-22 as the midbass unit and Vifa M-11s as the mid ( I have been saving these gems for this project)
It is the bass driver I am having trouble with.
OK so the subs will be equalised?? Linkwitz transform I suppose?? I can't help you there. IF you do this then I would look at putting the XO to the midbass driver close to the point where its closed box roll-off starts and to make it easy then Tri-amp using something cheap from Behringer
actually the design I have in my head is this configuration using a Vifa M-22 as the midbass unit and Vifa M-11s as the mid ( I have been saving these gems for this project)
It is the bass driver I am having trouble with.
OK so the subs will be equalised?? Linkwitz transform I suppose?? I can't help you there. IF you do this then I would look at putting the XO to the midbass driver close to the point where its closed box roll-off starts and to make it easy then Tri-amp using something cheap from Behringer
If I stay in the brands ScanSpeak/Peerless/Vifa. A plenty of other choices exists.
Some 4"
10F/8424G00 - Scan-Speak 4 inch wideband coated fiberglass - Europe Audio
12MU/8731T00 - Scan-Speak Illuminator 4'' Neo magnet midwoofer - Europe Audio
Some 1"
D2604/833000 - Scan-Speak 1 inch soft dome fabric diaphragm tweeter - Europe Audio
D2608/913000 - Scan-Speak 1 inch dome tweeter fabric diaphragm - Europe Audio
D3004/660000 - Scan-Speak 1 inch soft dome AirCirc magnet system aluminum faceplate - Europe Audio
The hybrid solution is a good solution 😉 Bass in active and mid-treble in passive.
Moondog55> Take a look to SB drivers : SB Acoustics :: 12" SB34NRX75-6 or SB Acoustics :: 10" SB29NRX75-6
A TL ? http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/187349-10-woofer-transmission-line.html#post2543721
Some 4"
10F/8424G00 - Scan-Speak 4 inch wideband coated fiberglass - Europe Audio
12MU/8731T00 - Scan-Speak Illuminator 4'' Neo magnet midwoofer - Europe Audio
Some 1"
D2604/833000 - Scan-Speak 1 inch soft dome fabric diaphragm tweeter - Europe Audio
D2608/913000 - Scan-Speak 1 inch dome tweeter fabric diaphragm - Europe Audio
D3004/660000 - Scan-Speak 1 inch soft dome AirCirc magnet system aluminum faceplate - Europe Audio
The hybrid solution is a good solution 😉 Bass in active and mid-treble in passive.
Moondog55> Take a look to SB drivers : SB Acoustics :: 12" SB34NRX75-6 or SB Acoustics :: 10" SB29NRX75-6
A TL ? http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/187349-10-woofer-transmission-line.html#post2543721
It can be done, and you can get good results. The placement concerns for the bass will conflict with those for everything else. The results will not be as good as can be achieved when you take the room into account.
EQing for response anomalies in a small room will result in one of two things. Either it will fix the problem, or it will not. In the second case after EQ, you will end up with a more balanced sounding problem. On continued listening the problem tends to sound just as bad.
You are looking at peerless I would like to make you aware of the low price dicovery series of scanspeak they have better specs then the peerless.
You can find 10" to 4" cone drivers, look at the very good cone 4" midrange units.
I would go for 3way there is no need for a 4 way only when you build a real sub 20-80Hz I can find use of a 4way design the mid high doesn't have to make large extrusion this way.
Nice 3 way example.http://www.visaton.de/en/bauvorschlaege/3_wege/concorde_mkiii/index.html
And a visaton 4 way, a good example to use a 4 way design properly.
http://www.visaton.de/en/bauvorschlaege/mehrwege/atlas_compact_mkv/index.html
Your design discription let me think back on this design. This 3way one is very good I think.
http://attlid.eu/p_tempest.html
You can find 10" to 4" cone drivers, look at the very good cone 4" midrange units.
I would go for 3way there is no need for a 4 way only when you build a real sub 20-80Hz I can find use of a 4way design the mid high doesn't have to make large extrusion this way.
Nice 3 way example.http://www.visaton.de/en/bauvorschlaege/3_wege/concorde_mkiii/index.html
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And a visaton 4 way, a good example to use a 4 way design properly.
http://www.visaton.de/en/bauvorschlaege/mehrwege/atlas_compact_mkv/index.html
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Your design discription let me think back on this design. This 3way one is very good I think.
http://attlid.eu/p_tempest.html
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Aiming for a flat response down to 20 hz into a home environnement sounds silly to me.
If a noise machine is wanted, OK.
For music reproduction the room response has to be taken into account. You certainly end up equalizing down the low end realizing then that your set up is overkill considering this low end.
If a noise machine is wanted, OK.
For music reproduction the room response has to be taken into account. You certainly end up equalizing down the low end realizing then that your set up is overkill considering this low end.
I realise with rooms gain etc an eq will need to be applied for a flat response, but what i want is something that i can just turn up and up without reaching limits even at 20hz.
However, the lower you will want to go, the sooner you will be power limited by Xmax reaching, specially using a closed box and linkwitz transform equalization..
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I would like to build the tempest but its too big, I want as much output as possible from something no bigger than 1.1m tall and 10 inches ish wide
You will need to find 10" woofers with very big Xmax.
peerless
http://www.tymphany.com/files/XLS-P830452%20Rev%201_1.pdf
scan speak
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/26w-4558t00.pdf
4" midrange scan. not as expensive as one would think.
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/10f-8424g00.pdf
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/12w-8524g00.pdf
mivoc 10"
http://www.mivoc.com/downloads/de/mivoc/PDF/AWM104-Datenblatt_WEB.pdf
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