Hi there,
My partsexpress package is on a slow boat and I will soon get my 352 NSB 4 inch drivers. Yes its crazy, but the idea is that I will use those in various speakers for whole house audio and also for speakers in my dedicated home theatre room for a 7.2 setup or 6.2.
For the HT front speakers the idea is that I will build some line array towers with 16 NSBs plus a tweeter solution. I am thinking either a line of PT2 planars or maybe a single efficent tweeter just like Jim Griffins needles. I have not decided yet.
The front speakers will definately be large towers but should I do OB, sealed or ported design. If I do OB then I will definately not have enough bass. So now for the questions.
Is there any way of using multiple NSBs in any kind of fashion where I will get decent bass out of them? I've seen some threads about NSB corner horns. Will that work? Anything else thats better? Maybe I can use 2 arrays in OB and maybe 2 additional horn arrays for the bass?
A second set of questions! For the surround channels, what shall I do? I was thinking of another set of line arrays in an OB setup. Again this won't produce any good bass but is there a need for that in surround speakers? Commercial surround speakers are usually dipol. Is it a good idea to create some mine arrays in a dipole fashion? Say 2 arrays of 6-8 NSB with a tweeter each, one pointed towards the front and the other towards the back of the room.
If there is a need for bass in the surround speakers then I was thinking of doing a ported box. But since its surround speakers I definately want the enveloping dipole sound. What shall I do? Can I create a surround speaker with three mini arrays? 2 arrays as above and the third being ported. Similar to picture, but line arrays instead of single drivers.
My partsexpress package is on a slow boat and I will soon get my 352 NSB 4 inch drivers. Yes its crazy, but the idea is that I will use those in various speakers for whole house audio and also for speakers in my dedicated home theatre room for a 7.2 setup or 6.2.
For the HT front speakers the idea is that I will build some line array towers with 16 NSBs plus a tweeter solution. I am thinking either a line of PT2 planars or maybe a single efficent tweeter just like Jim Griffins needles. I have not decided yet.
The front speakers will definately be large towers but should I do OB, sealed or ported design. If I do OB then I will definately not have enough bass. So now for the questions.
Is there any way of using multiple NSBs in any kind of fashion where I will get decent bass out of them? I've seen some threads about NSB corner horns. Will that work? Anything else thats better? Maybe I can use 2 arrays in OB and maybe 2 additional horn arrays for the bass?
A second set of questions! For the surround channels, what shall I do? I was thinking of another set of line arrays in an OB setup. Again this won't produce any good bass but is there a need for that in surround speakers? Commercial surround speakers are usually dipol. Is it a good idea to create some mine arrays in a dipole fashion? Say 2 arrays of 6-8 NSB with a tweeter each, one pointed towards the front and the other towards the back of the room.
If there is a need for bass in the surround speakers then I was thinking of doing a ported box. But since its surround speakers I definately want the enveloping dipole sound. What shall I do? Can I create a surround speaker with three mini arrays? 2 arrays as above and the third being ported. Similar to picture, but line arrays instead of single drivers.
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One idea Ive seen was to add an additional line of NSBs for more radiating area and low pass it at like 200hz, not sure on all the details how to work that out.
Another way to get more bass would be to use something along the lines of folded TQWTs tuned to 75hz, stacked.
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I think the corner horns are some sort of TL/TQTW varient. Alot of people using line arrays dont use a center speaker.
Another way to get more bass would be to use something along the lines of folded TQWTs tuned to 75hz, stacked.
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I think the corner horns are some sort of TL/TQTW varient. Alot of people using line arrays dont use a center speaker.
Using bipole TLs are another possiblity, no baffle step loss.
Im kinda confused about the question re dipole sound and which way the speakers point, dipoles are usually open baffle or H, W, D frame etc. Do you mean bipoles, where you have drivers pointing each way and wired in phase?
Im kinda confused about the question re dipole sound and which way the speakers point, dipoles are usually open baffle or H, W, D frame etc. Do you mean bipoles, where you have drivers pointing each way and wired in phase?
Are there any inherant problems with running a bipole center, with OB dipole fronts? After I finish my own NSB line array, I will be in need of a center channel solution for HT use.
Tweeker - regarding the ob or dipoles, I'm not really sure. I'm confused on this myself. What is H, W, D frame? I think the speakers in my pic, are dipoles. Not open baffle but drivers pointing each way. Some dipole surrounds have the drivers in a slight angle. I think they are wired out of phase but I'm not sure.
I will probably not use center channel unless I find out I really need it. Depending on what my screen material is going to be I'll either use another line array behind the screen (prefeered) or a mini line array (like needles with only one tweeter) laying down.
I will probably not use center channel unless I find out I really need it. Depending on what my screen material is going to be I'll either use another line array behind the screen (prefeered) or a mini line array (like needles with only one tweeter) laying down.
Linkwitz Lab has oodles of info on dipoles.
If you have boxes with drivers pointing in opposite directions wired out of phase, its a dipole. If the are wired in phase, its a bipole, bipoles are one way of compensating for baffle step loss. If your using NSBs as a dipole I think Id just use open baffles.
Line arrays have a reputation for imaging well and many people using them are quite happy without a center channel.
If you have boxes with drivers pointing in opposite directions wired out of phase, its a dipole. If the are wired in phase, its a bipole, bipoles are one way of compensating for baffle step loss. If your using NSBs as a dipole I think Id just use open baffles.
Line arrays have a reputation for imaging well and many people using them are quite happy without a center channel.
I think it would be fair top say that pushing the NSB's down in the <150 Hz. range would be tough. Like a dog walking on its hind legs, it can be done but it's not pretty.
I augment my line arrays with Bill Fitzmaurice's Tuba 18 (two of them). It provides MORE THAN ENOUGH extremely tight bass. I also run my arrays as OB's and dual Dayton PT2's.
I am willing to take the Pepsi challenge with other array designs.
I augment my line arrays with Bill Fitzmaurice's Tuba 18 (two of them). It provides MORE THAN ENOUGH extremely tight bass. I also run my arrays as OB's and dual Dayton PT2's.
I am willing to take the Pepsi challenge with other array designs.
chipco3434 said:
Not to get off topic but I have a question for chipco3434. Do you drive your Tuba18's with separate plate amps? I just purchased the plans for the SLA from Bill and I wanted to build a second Tuba18 and use the pair similiar to what you described. What crossover do you use?
I drive them with a 100 watt PE plate amp. There's more than enough power. I don't block any of the low end stuff out of the NSBs. I run the plates on there own 2nd order at the full 180Hz. About half volume ~ 60% is just about right.
I think it is a perfect combination.
You can argue about liking the presence of the line arrays.... they are not for everybody. It's like single driver stuff for me... I just don't get it. But it is very hard to argue with the Tuba and the efficient bass sound of a horn. I think they are killer.
I think it is a perfect combination.
You can argue about liking the presence of the line arrays.... they are not for everybody. It's like single driver stuff for me... I just don't get it. But it is very hard to argue with the Tuba and the efficient bass sound of a horn. I think they are killer.
That's this winter's project...
But for some combing and interference issues, you would not want the NSB's seperated by the tweeter line...
But for some combing and interference issues, you would not want the NSB's seperated by the tweeter line...
would two rows of NSB next to each other not create combing or interferance?
chipco3434 - how have you wired your array? If I'm not misstaken you have 16 nsb and 2 pt2 per array? NSB will be around 98db and tweeter 94. Did you put a lpad on the NSBs? Also how loud can your pt2 go? Are they keeping up with the NSBs?
chipco3434 - how have you wired your array? If I'm not misstaken you have 16 nsb and 2 pt2 per array? NSB will be around 98db and tweeter 94. Did you put a lpad on the NSBs? Also how loud can your pt2 go? Are they keeping up with the NSBs?
I wired 'em an ran 'em like I stole them. The NSB's are S/P to 6 ohms. The PT's are parallel at 4 ohms. It's hard to remember but the calculation of efficiency and impedence put the two NSB's and PT's pretty well matched. I never went back to that project choosing to prepare active xovers and biamps. I have the TiRoth Xovers done and will do some ALeph amps this winter. There might be time for a 32/6 or 32/7 NSB-PT2 speaker also.
Correct, 16 and 2 per side crossed at 4000 2nd order if I can recollect. The PT2's seem to keep up fine. I could not imagine cranking the treble... they are already on the bright side already.
I run them with a 38875 BrianGT clone. The purchased part of the system is an Adcom pre...
The sound levels possible with this setup are truly deafening. I really liked it from the first time I turned it on. The Tuba thing also added tremendously to what you hear. They really are the perfect combo...
Correct, 16 and 2 per side crossed at 4000 2nd order if I can recollect. The PT2's seem to keep up fine. I could not imagine cranking the treble... they are already on the bright side already.
I run them with a 38875 BrianGT clone. The purchased part of the system is an Adcom pre...
The sound levels possible with this setup are truly deafening. I really liked it from the first time I turned it on. The Tuba thing also added tremendously to what you hear. They really are the perfect combo...
Yes... I raised this flag a year ago and nobody saluted. Jim Griffin thought that the design to be inherently flawed in the separation of the two mid lines.
He know's more than me about that. ANyway, why would you seperate them? Perhaps not having a right and a left would be one reason.
Buy the way, you can pick up a pair of those Macs for under $22,000. Stands are extra.
He know's more than me about that. ANyway, why would you seperate them? Perhaps not having a right and a left would be one reason.
Buy the way, you can pick up a pair of those Macs for under $22,000. Stands are extra.
The NSB setup I saw using two rows low passes one of the rows well below where combing would be an issue, its for added oomph on the low end, the NSBs dont need any help at mid.
Ive got a few boxes of NSBs to play with and Im thinking Ill buy Apexjr. tweeters and cross to them for the high. PE is great for me as Im close enough to avoid shipping.
Coating the NSBs will reduce there sensitivity and mitigate their 7k hump, much recommended.
Its probably better to tune any quarter wave pipe if you go that route (TL/MLTL/TQWT etc) at 100hz than try go lower.
One of the 2 colours is sold out now, who knows how long the rest will last.
Ive got a few boxes of NSBs to play with and Im thinking Ill buy Apexjr. tweeters and cross to them for the high. PE is great for me as Im close enough to avoid shipping.
Coating the NSBs will reduce there sensitivity and mitigate their 7k hump, much recommended.
Its probably better to tune any quarter wave pipe if you go that route (TL/MLTL/TQWT etc) at 100hz than try go lower.
One of the 2 colours is sold out now, who knows how long the rest will last.
chipco3434 said:
the design is terrible sounding... some of the worst loudspeakers I've ever heard (the XRT28)...
I detested those loudspeakers. They were simply put atrocious sounding.... tweeter heavy, did not play very low, very little dynamics to them... just awful sounding
there's quite a few problems with them to begin with though that likely this guy wouldn't have to stumble with... just make sure you match levels of the tweeter line and midranges... because that's something mcintosh did NOT do unless their tweeters have huge resonances and notchs in their response
looks are important 🙂
I really like to look of the mcintosh arrays. Maybe they don't play well but they do look impressive. Would it be possible to improve on the design by having a line of PT2 in the middle instead? The second line will be as Tweeker suggested crossed for the bass tones only. Will that work?
But I must say that I like the look of the round tweeters. It looks like they have some ctc spacing issues but if I used the neo tweeters would itl be possible to do a well designed line array and still use the second line on NSBs? What else is wrong with the mcintosh design?
I will have subs also but I want them to only handle the really low bass.....
Anything in regards to the surround setup? Most commercial surround speakers have a switch that will let them play both dipole and bipole. Some even have possibility to do direct radiation for music.
Cheers,
Exipnos
I really like to look of the mcintosh arrays. Maybe they don't play well but they do look impressive. Would it be possible to improve on the design by having a line of PT2 in the middle instead? The second line will be as Tweeker suggested crossed for the bass tones only. Will that work?
But I must say that I like the look of the round tweeters. It looks like they have some ctc spacing issues but if I used the neo tweeters would itl be possible to do a well designed line array and still use the second line on NSBs? What else is wrong with the mcintosh design?
I will have subs also but I want them to only handle the really low bass.....
Anything in regards to the surround setup? Most commercial surround speakers have a switch that will let them play both dipole and bipole. Some even have possibility to do direct radiation for music.
Cheers,
Exipnos
continuing in my quest to use line arrays in the surrounds. This is what I have in mind. Its inspired the surround speaker in the Opus line by Wharfedale. They are tripole.
This is what Wharfedale says about tri-pole surrounds.
"We have created the Opus ‘Tri-pole’ surround speaker to
recreate with clarity, the ideal rear soundstage for modern multi-channel systems. Designed to be hung on a rear wall in pairs, each of the drive units operates in-phase to produce a wide, uninterrupted surround field. The front firing 6.5” or 170mm bass driver extends the bottom end response to around 60Hz. Twin pairs of dome mid-ranges and tweeters fire at angles, one set directly toward the ideal listening position, and one set towards a wall, or into space. The drivers that fire inward toward the listener, provide localisation of effects, positioning them exactly within the rear sound field. The outward firing driver pairs
produce ambience and a sense of scale."
So I was thinking that for the two back and two side surround speakers I will have three lines of 6-8 NSB drivers. In each line I will complement with either a bullet tweeter or planar/ribbon tweeter.
Each line will be sealed/ported (still not sure if its possible to port when speakers will hang on the wall). Middle line maybe only for bass just like the Wharfedales.
What you think?
This is what Wharfedale says about tri-pole surrounds.
"We have created the Opus ‘Tri-pole’ surround speaker to
recreate with clarity, the ideal rear soundstage for modern multi-channel systems. Designed to be hung on a rear wall in pairs, each of the drive units operates in-phase to produce a wide, uninterrupted surround field. The front firing 6.5” or 170mm bass driver extends the bottom end response to around 60Hz. Twin pairs of dome mid-ranges and tweeters fire at angles, one set directly toward the ideal listening position, and one set towards a wall, or into space. The drivers that fire inward toward the listener, provide localisation of effects, positioning them exactly within the rear sound field. The outward firing driver pairs
produce ambience and a sense of scale."
So I was thinking that for the two back and two side surround speakers I will have three lines of 6-8 NSB drivers. In each line I will complement with either a bullet tweeter or planar/ribbon tweeter.
Each line will be sealed/ported (still not sure if its possible to port when speakers will hang on the wall). Middle line maybe only for bass just like the Wharfedales.
What you think?
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