3 way upgrading Jamo D590 replacements and filter question

[jawen]

When i "play" in XSim i can se the 100 and 170hz dip, but only if i inverted/out of phase the woofer ??

If i have normal phase in XSim it shows a sweet curve ??

But in XSim you can even se the dip without woofer connected ??

 

[raymondj]

Hi Jawen,

From this morning earlier post, I think the fact that you have a dip at 90 Hz and again at 180Hz is interesting and now confirmed again in all of your measurement's today.

At these lower frequencies phase will not be so obvious as masses of lines that we get with higher frequency measurements, Instead because of the wavelength we see huge dips in the response.

At these LF frequencies wavelengths are big hence the rooms interference. Whereas with your tweeter at 3Khz a wavelength is 11.3 cm.

Down here at Low frequency a 150 Hz wavelength is 2.26 Metres approx. Quarter wavelength approx. 0.5 metres.
40Hz is 8.5 metres wavelength. quarter wavelength 2.1 metres approx.

Sometimes the only way to have somethings that even approaches an even bass response is to move the speaker well out into the room by a metre or more. After a listening session you can push it back against the wall.

Updated with thoughts from latest graphs:
You have confirmed that the suckouts/troughs/dips whatever you want to call them are real and are part of your measurement's at that position in the room.

Speaker phase red and blue doesnt seem to be a big issue with the red looking better in terms of output. But with phase reversed it alters the LF response slightly. For me there is no right or wrong here go with whatever you prefer, the best sound.
The other bit of good news is that your graphs shows how little the bass interferes with the midrange response in this version of the Xover.

 

[jawen]

Thanks Ray....I will read a few times so i get "the hole picture"

Don`t think i get this better from 260hz and up.....-+1,5dB with Var smoothing (what ever that is )

Best regards John

 

[raymondj]

Yes it looks good.

Really interested to hear how you get on with a pair assembled, and any listening impressions. Do you do vinyl, cd or stream ?

 

[jawen]

Really interested to hear how you get on with a pair assembled, and any listening impressions. Do you do vinyl, cd or stream ?

Sadly i give all my vinyl´s away 1988 when i bought my first cd player.
And from 1988 with only 2 cd´s to buy in Stockholm, i continued with cd´s until year 2020 when i bought Cromecast Ultra.

So now i like listening and watching the singer/band at the same time on tv trought Youtube Premium or ordenary Youtube.
Real good sound quality and i Cast it from my mobilphone, so its supereasy to shift songs.

But still sometimes listen to my older cd´s ( even if most "mastering" are quite bad on them....Often thin sound below 50-60 hz
And still sometimes listen to dvd´s in 5.1 channel in my "cinemaroom".....James Taylor´s Live at the Beacon Theatre from 1998 is fantastic!

This is one of the song´s

Best regards John

 

[jawen]

If ilook back at mesauring from before, i se that the mesauring from the midrange in box without xover have the same dip´s

Ray!....Do you think i can i do something about that?

Make the cone heavier or put some absorbing Bitumen mass on the basket ( to get away some resonans)
Or do some small modifications on baffle.

Will anything help do you think ?

Sheer´s /John

 

[raymondj]

Hi Jawen,

I have been in my cold garage making another box for my little two way. Cutting mitres on the table saw.

Here is what i get when i measure the 5Fe100 in my small box. Does it look familiar???

I am not sure about your questions as I haven't done those types of experiments. Mass will change the resonant frequency lowering it. I wouldn't suggest it,

Damping the basket ??? again I doubt you will measure a difference, It cannot do any harm, which is a good thing.
I know people stick bitumastic pads, blu tac and other mastic type stuff on their drivers ????

If you look at the manufacturers data sheet for the driver on the test IEC baffle it does not have the peaks and troughs we measure, As the test baffle is larger than our speaker cabinets' edge diffraction effects are lowered.

If it was small like our it would exhibit similar edge diffraction effects that we see in our cabinets.
Large roundovers or angled facets in the cabinets are ways to lessen these and having the drivers flush mounted in the baffle.

Have a good evening.
Cheers.

My wife has come back from shopping with a nice French sauvignon blanc, which is going to be opened and consumed now.

 

[jawen]

I have been in my cold garage making another box for my little two way. Cutting mitres on the table saw.

Yippieee 🙂 ....Finally
So you have come to a decision to "go with that" ?

Here is what i get when i measure the 5Fe100 in my small box. Does it look familiar???

HAHAHAHA.....Damn Faithal 😂

If you look at the manufacturers data sheet for the driver on the test IEC baffle it does not have the peak

Okey i re-build my baffles to 1000 x 700 mm and use the speaker in my garden hahahaha ( a joke so everyone understand )

If it was small like our it would exhibit similar edge diffraction effects that we see in our cabinets.
Large roundovers or angled facets in the cabinets are ways to lessen these and having the drivers flush mounted in the baffle

Have trubble to roundover the baffle edge.....Maby....maby i can cut out a 5mm mdf board and place it on top of the baffle to get all the edges away.

My wife has come back from shopping with a nice French sauvignon blanc, which is going to be opened and consumed now.

Superb!.....Im on my 4 Norrlands Guld beer.

Sheeeers !

Attention Belemakare and Moorclose:​

Here is a mesaurement on my modified Jamo orginal 3 way xover...Not bad -+2dB down to 250 hz

And have a great evening "over there"

Best regards John

 

[jawen]

Soon done with all testing

Have made Original Jamo filter "modified" almost as good as a perhaps expensive "new filter", with a few changes on orginal xover.
Green modified orginal Jamo xover, Orange completely new xover build from scratch ( the best i could do with help from Ray with these drivers and cabinette)

Think the modified Original Jamo xover is real good and cheep for all who wants to have speaker-sound that cost 5.000 USD for 300 USD in total.

Best regards John....now after 6 beer´s

 

[Moorclos]

Thanks at both of you! Impatient to see your New crossover: original mod+New.

 

[Moorclos]

Soon done with all testing

Have made Original Jamo filter "modified" ......with a few changes on orginal xover.
.......
Think the modified Original Jamo xover is real good and cheep for all who wants to have speaker-sound that cost 5.000 USD for 300 USD in total.

I think I am looking at this thread, before I joined the forum.
I followed to this one: D590 Tweak (minor)
From this link a Spoiler (traduction with deepl free), and many considerations same as Jawen mentioned in the initiative of his project, of which on the fact that we can obtain an excellent speaker, starting from this remarkable cabinet making

Spoiler

Nice subject and I have recently acquired a pair of 707 of which I have changed the bass speakers and made some modifications on the crossover.

I'm going to give my impressions on these speakers which mainly the bass section differs.

On the cabinet side, nothing to say, it's really very clean, the veneer would have deserved to be real rather than vinyl, however the aspect is irreproachable. The intermediate reinforcement board that supports the bass speakers is in a very average agglo, a board in medium would have been preferable.
We can say that these speakers have the face and that they throw some.

As for the quality of the speakers, there is a lot to be disappointed about and it is far below the standards of the time of the so-called HDG speakers, if all the serious manufacturers used aluminium chassis and powerful magnets, Jamo has placed light speakers, very light especially on the bass side.

The bass speakers are really low end and the majority today have all their suspensions out of order, moreover with regard to their design the speaker can take 60 watts maximum, beyond that the risk of breakage is real.

The 707 differs from the 590 on the bass side, the 707 has a 4 order isobaric passband, the 590 has a classic 4 order passband, this is their main difference.

The midrange section is similar, although I notice some modifications of the crossover, modifications that I made myself without having consulted the schematic of the 590 before.

When listening, I found the high midrange to be very pronounced with the original crossover, almost screaming.

On the 707 the low pass of the medium is like the 590 of the 2nd order with a L of 0,89mH (0,70mH on the 590) and C of 10 uF, I simply increased the C to 12uF, and increased the attenuation because of having changed the boomers. I have a doubt on the difference of value of the choke because the diagram on the 590 found on the net contains errors, the high pass indicates 0,3mH it is certainly rather 3mH and still this value seems to me weak compared to the low pass of the boomer with a L of 6,5mH in a passband configuration.

Concerning the High Pass of the tweeter on the 590 it seems indicated L 0,27mH and C 3,3uF, on the 707 I have L 0,35mH and C 4,7uF that I brought back as the 590 to 3,3uF, the attenuation was also the subject of a modification taking into account the change of the boomers.

On the Low Pass of the boomers nothing has been modified except the diameter of the port taking into account the change of the speakers.

In conclusion, these speakers benefit from a choice of economic speakers from Vifa or Peerless, far from the standards sold at the same price by the competition such as Focal, Elipson...the crossover could be more elaborate, however, except for the capa of the High Pass of the midrange crossover, the dimensioning of the chokes remains correct with regard to the admissible power. An improvement will be noticeable by changing the electrolytic condos by polypropylenes, but I doubt that the change of cable improves the sound quality.

These loudspeakers still have a very aesthetic and high quality line and cabinetry, and a significant upgrade (HP+Filter) is far from being farfetched, which will allow them to compete with loudspeakers costing more than 2000 € per pair.

__________________________________________
QUOTE: 2

The replacement was made with Fenton woofers, an Asian product which had previously been distributed in France by Jean Michel BIGOT, well known in the world of sound systems in the 80s and 90s.


In the 707 in isobaric two pairs of these speakers do their job well in coherence with the rest, moreover in PassBand useless to look for the HDG unless needing a strong SLP; 2 dB of supplementary sensitivity would have been well come, 92 Db instead of the 90 dB (Asian) announced (let us say rather 88/89 real....)

Already the ferrite and the design allow to consider a real 100 Wts RMS, and the rubber suspension will avoid a premature deterioration.


For the 590 it's different, there is only one speaker and this one radiates towards the floor and through the vent, it's not really a bass reflex load, it's a bit of a hybrid, like the PB 6-order type, that we find on some subwoofers.


In your case, if I had to upgrade the 590, I would look at Beyma for the bass, the 8P300Fe seems to me a good candidate, good excursion, good sensitivity, and strong power. It will be necessary to control the ribs of the template but if there is a modification they should be minor.


The most complex part to work on is the high midrange cell, on this side we are limited in the choice of replacement midrange drivers, both by the size and by the closed volume which leaves little depth.

The original Vifa in polypropylene are to my taste a little colored, I would have preferred by far treated paper membranes for their naturalness, but it remains correct.


What deserves to be worked is the crossover, I made tests in full active and we obtain another speaker .....


The Tweeter has a strong sensitivity, of origin a resistance of 6,8 Ohms attenuates it, its slope is of 12 dB, and to pass it in 18 dB is already better.


For the mediums idem the slope is at 12 dB and that works well, it would be necessary however to know the parameters to bring a correction of impedance there I think.


These loudspeakers can do without a box because their bass knows how to be present when it is necessary, they remain however loudspeakers of living room 20 to 30 m² seems to me their maximum, there are only two 13 cms in direct radiation.


Derived from the Oreil (it is equipped in Dynaudio of memory), the 707/590 remain beautiful speakers which with some modifications (bass and filter) become beautiful and good speakers.


18's

Since 2020.
But in a first time, I only change the old foam suspension on my woofer, rather than change the woofer. (with some success).

I was not fully satisfied with my 707i (older version of D590)
I first thought of buying Concert 8 or 11 (D830 D870) (premium speakers from Jamo, many ° over D590).
But old one, rare, costly.

And I came across this post.
Immediatly I was taken by the ardor of this project, and the meaning of this project. to transfigure something existing into something better.
It makes sense everytime in many areas, work, sport, ...

Thus, even without having the technicality or the capacity to validate the choices made, other than noting that found there is a long process built, and a lot of personal investment, on both sides (Jawen and RayJ)

I invested in the 5FE120 and the SB26, and quickly installed with success, even without updating the cross over (the gain being already obvious).
When It was done, with success,
I decided to follow the choice made specifically on the French forum in link: to change the woofers with Fenton WPP20 for the 2 pairs of woofer in push pull (on 707i) once again with success.

In the choice made by the man 18s: He used 10@12µF for the medium and 4.7@3.3µF for the tweeter, (and changing the lenght of the event for the woofer), with success too.

But, with the solution here, I showed that we can go higher.
At this point (with my xsim, woofer 222µF@197µF / medium 10µF@18µF/ tweeter 4.7@10µF/Resistor 3.3@0.51 5W).

I see the amount of work that had to be done here, and the amount of work I would need to validate other choices, or the proposal under Xsim.

This is how I think that your work will be a real plus for all those who will have the courage of the adventure, anonymous silencer, or member of the forum, owners of Jamo 7.7 Jamo D590 or Jamo 707

Thank you for sharing your work.
When the train is moving, and it goes in the right direction, there is no other question than to take it.

 

[jawen]

I followed to this one: D590 Tweak (minor)

Hi Moorclos and thank you for your kind words.

Now i have read hole that French thread, and they have wrong values in the original Jamo xover, and you can`t start simulating modifeing xover´s from the wrong values!
They are modifying ( probably in XSim or other simulationprogram)

The coil on the tweeter is original 0,47mH.....Not 0,27mH as in thread
The coil on the midrange-side is 5,1mH......Not 0,3mH as in thread

At this point (with my xsim, woofer 222µF@197µF / medium 10µF@18µF/ tweeter 4.7@10µF/Resistor 3.3@0.51 5W).

Do you mean use a 222-197 uF for woofer.....use a 10-18 uF for midrange and use a 4,7-10 uF on tweeter with a resistor between 3,3 and 0,51 ohm ??
And what coil values have you use in XSim ?


I will compile my modification with pictures and writing, so even people with low knowledge will be able to do it
It going to take some time to do that ( putting pic´s and descriptions together )

Best regards John

 

[jawen]

I had a real good listning session saturday night whit both speaker ( Left speaker with the "newbuilt" xover, and Right speaker with modify Jamo orginal xover)
Playing all differant songs on both "normal" listening levels and real high listening levels.

It has some real good power capacity now, and holds the sound image together all the time 👌, and even I was amazed at how good depth and detail they have now.

important observations.

1) You need to replace the original port with a better tuned port, if you are going to use the powerful Peerlees 830667 woofer.
I can´t say if your using the Fenton woofer, but probably then too...Because the original port is a joke 13 cm long and 100mm wide.
And when you begain to play louder, the air have to little air resistance trought the port, so the port-sound isen´t as clean as it can be.

My Left speaker have a new port, and was dead quiet and perfect!....(therefore I could compare them well)

If i simulate Peerlees 830667 in WINisd a 70 mm wide about 20,5 cm long port tuned to about 30 hz is good ( i was stupid bought a 100mm)
Maby you can just buy a cheep piece of 70mm drain pipe and saw it 20 cm long, and glue it inside original port, and fixate it properly
And i don´t have Fenton woofer values, so can´t simulate that woofers port, but original port is not good enough


2) You need to fix/peg down the components on the xover-board so they can´t shake and vibrate when playing...( you really hear that when playing high volymes)
May use melting glue or ordenary Latex, but really fixate all the Caps/coils/resistors to the board properly.

This modify Jamo speaker is now a "killer" !

 

[Moorclos]

Thanks for your observations. Quickly, for my 707 (crossover near but not the same as on assembly for 707, and not the same but near D590)
For the tweeter 0.35mH it seems (on 707)
I look better thid evening.
(Thé picture is m'y cross (have 150+72uF for woofer on schematic they use 150+48) (they use thermidor and 6. Ohms resistor in //, on m'y crossover 3.3 ohm without thermidor)

 

[Belemakare]

Do you have a 70mm*20.5cm port now jawen?
I can recomend the new album with Midnight oil if you are in to classic rock or what to call their style,good soundquality also

 

[Belemakare]

Sorry now i see that you wrote that you had a 100mm pipe

 

[jawen]

Thanks for your observations. Quickly, for my 707 (crossover near but not the same as on assembly for 707, and not the same but near D590)
For the tweeter 0.35mH it seems (on 707)

Aha, your model is different!
Do your model Jamo 707 have 2 woofers in push-pull arangement ....6,5 inch or what ?..Must be hard to change this woofers
inside cabinette.
And maby then you also have the old ferrofluid tweeters...That ferrofluid has dry out of course, so now i understand why you happy with the new SB26ADC.
Your old tweeters must have sounded like **** hahaha

(Thé picture is m'y cross (have 150+72uF for woofer on schematic they use 150+48) (they use thermidor and 6. Ohms resistor in //, on m'y crossover 3.3 ohm without thermidor)

Are you sure that your XSim scheme is right about the woofers ?
There is nothing on + side before woofers in your XSim simulation?

All people draw lines in different ways in XSim from amp to driver, so i must look at your model more when i have time.

Sorry now i see that you wrote that you had a 100mm pipe

Yes i orderd everything a little to early hahaha, so i have the 100mm version that suck´s because it have to be 48 cm long.
With a 90 degree bend inside, it goes all the way down to the woofers backside 😜

A 70 mm port is much better in this project (nowing what i know now)
It only have to be about 20 cm long, and thats much more easy done....and also cheeper.

Best regards John

 

[jawen]

Thanks for your observations. Quickly, for my 707

See that you dont have the gap in the bottom like the D590 has.
But if you want to re-build this 707 to be a D590 its quite easy !

Just to make one more "bottom-plate in 19-22 mdf per side and make 4 small woodpieces (so you get a 20mm gap for the woofer in the bottom of the speaker)
And mill out in the bottom-plate you have now (original) so you can fit the woofer, and then just mount you "new bottom-plate" with the woodpieces

Spraypaint everything black and its done.

/John

 

[Moorclos]

Do your model Jamo 707 have 2 woofers in push-pull arangement ....6,5 inch or what ?..Must be hard to change this woofers
inside cabinette.
And maby then you also have the old ferrofluid tweeters...That ferrofluid has dry out of course, so now i understand why you happy with the new SB26ADC.

Your old tweeters must have sounded like **** hahaha

[For sure]

• a wooden circle connects the 2 woofers at the level of the bowl, between the metal edge and the suspension
• 4 screws go through the whole and are attached to the structure
• so easy to change

- not 6.5'', 8" !! so 2x8"=12" of useful surface
- 4th isobaric bandpass (= useful volume x2 I seem to remember, so 12" in like '94liters')

- the change is phenomenal (compared to before)
i have 2 closed subwoofers 12" in stereo i don't ear the difference

- a picture attached for the difference between the original 8" woofer and the new one

See that you dont have the gap in the bottom like the D590 has. But if you want to re-build this 707 to be a D590 its quite easy !

Good Idea! but Replacement already done with 2 Fenton WPP20 (8"). [I think the choice 2x8" in push pull for bass is good with 707 perhaps better than downfiring? (no importance to know) Just happy with it ]

Are you sure that your XSim scheme is right about the woofers ?

There is nothing on + side before woofers in your XSim simulation?

I use the original schema from Jamo to draw the xsim (perhaps with mistake?)
(writes the differences corresponding to my physical cross over compared to Jamo's schema)


WPP20 file for winisd
(don't have Frd or Zma for it because don't find graph for db SPl or impedance and can't use fpgraphtracer to make frd and zma (don't know other way, don't have yet micro like Umik)
(other TS in pdf but think TS on jpg are the good one)

 

[jawen]

Hi Moorclos

Ivé simulate some new re-built xover for your Jamo 707 in XSim, based on your orginal filter/xover. (Based on your original xoverparts)

The XSim xover that you had in your last post had very low impedance, and no woofer curves.

This xover match crossover-points better at both 150 and 2.500 hz, and just to show you i used 2 x Peerlees 830667 (to get something to work with)
You can use most of your "orginal xover parts" for example you can un-wind the 5,3mH coil in the midrange down to 4mH.

Borrow a LCR meter if you dont have one!

ANd remember....The Peerlees woofer in XSim was just an example!

Best regards John