We have both seen how difficult this one is that's for sure.
I have tried lots of iterations but it is has eluded me, when I have tried to simplify it, the impedance goes low and almost a flat line around 4 ohms.
Right now I am listening to a 5fe100 and a SB acoustics 19mm textile dome as a possible candidate for a cheap build. £80 for a stereo set of drivers.
It sounds fine and is pretty neutral and with a nice sense of detail.
I could live with it without a sub, but I know a sub would let it make a good 2.1 solution.
I only have one playing in mono, I haven't built a second cab to prevent wasting too much MDF. Woodworking is not a strong point.
I would be interested in what you think to just the mids and the tweeter running in this config:
Both mids connected in parallel via 750uH -1mH and 15uF second order and 3rd order on the tweeter,
10uF, 200uH and 20uF .
Try in Xsim to see that it works. Making sure you open circuit the bass part of the simulation so it is not contributing anything.
I am assuming it should be a gently falling response. I know you want more bass, but right now I am interested in the correct shape and your measurements showing basically that. Then I will know we are in good agreement and then we can try to tackle the bass.
I have tried lots of iterations but it is has eluded me, when I have tried to simplify it, the impedance goes low and almost a flat line around 4 ohms.
Right now I am listening to a 5fe100 and a SB acoustics 19mm textile dome as a possible candidate for a cheap build. £80 for a stereo set of drivers.
It sounds fine and is pretty neutral and with a nice sense of detail.
I could live with it without a sub, but I know a sub would let it make a good 2.1 solution.
I only have one playing in mono, I haven't built a second cab to prevent wasting too much MDF. Woodworking is not a strong point.
I would be interested in what you think to just the mids and the tweeter running in this config:
Both mids connected in parallel via 750uH -1mH and 15uF second order and 3rd order on the tweeter,
10uF, 200uH and 20uF .
Try in Xsim to see that it works. Making sure you open circuit the bass part of the simulation so it is not contributing anything.
I am assuming it should be a gently falling response. I know you want more bass, but right now I am interested in the correct shape and your measurements showing basically that. Then I will know we are in good agreement and then we can try to tackle the bass.
Yes Ray, for sure this is a tricky one.
Maby it`s Jamos front baffle with an 5 mm edge protruding out each side on the tweeter which makes the tweeter difficult to achieve perfectly,.
The sides goes 5mm out so the frontcovers "goes in totaly" on/in the speaker, and that make a 5mm edge on both sides of the tweeter affecting the mesaurements.
Dont know ideal liter volume for the 5FE120 either, they maby would have work "better" i separate chambers.
And maby the 5mm edge affecting them also a little bit.
Working on a "new modified" xover with less parts, and maby i will get some "forward" with it, i wil know tomorrow!
But the speaker sounds real good as it is now anyway!
The sound "releases" very well from the speaker, and lots of micro details over hole spectrum and absolutely no listening fatigue or "tired ears"
Good speed and punch from the 5FE120.
Will try out it tomorrow, and come back
Interesting!....Always had loved textile dome, but many tweeters today "sounds like it" i hear and read.
How low does it go with the 5fe100, and where have you put xover-point?
Im was a carpenter, but i understand the difficulties with woodworking hahaha.....And big speakers is a lots of work!
My home looks like ****, when im building/tweaking/mesauring speakers
Best regards John
Maby it`s Jamos front baffle with an 5 mm edge protruding out each side on the tweeter which makes the tweeter difficult to achieve perfectly,.
The sides goes 5mm out so the frontcovers "goes in totaly" on/in the speaker, and that make a 5mm edge on both sides of the tweeter affecting the mesaurements.
Dont know ideal liter volume for the 5FE120 either, they maby would have work "better" i separate chambers.
And maby the 5mm edge affecting them also a little bit.
Working on a "new modified" xover with less parts, and maby i will get some "forward" with it, i wil know tomorrow!
But the speaker sounds real good as it is now anyway!
The sound "releases" very well from the speaker, and lots of micro details over hole spectrum and absolutely no listening fatigue or "tired ears"
Good speed and punch from the 5FE120.
Will try out it tomorrow, and come back
Interesting!....Always had loved textile dome, but many tweeters today "sounds like it" i hear and read.
How low does it go with the 5fe100, and where have you put xover-point?
Im was a carpenter, but i understand the difficulties with woodworking hahaha.....And big speakers is a lots of work!
My home looks like ****, when im building/tweaking/mesauring speakers
Best regards John
Ivé give my left arm for a flat 4 ohm line hahahaha
So if you whrite right 4 ohm is super.
/John
Had a little brainstorming, begain from the begaing with only 2nd order filter on woofer/mid/tweeter.
The tweeter "suits in"better with 3nd order filter, but its small values so that is good.
Woofer needs 6,2mH coil and 220uF cap, but woofers are like that so not much to do here.
Its quite stabile on around 3 ohm impedance at 100, 300 and 3200 hz, and think receivers and most "normal" amp`s can manage it.
Don´t now if its going to fall off "to much" with 4,5dB from around 400hz to 10.000hz
Best regards John
The tweeter "suits in"better with 3nd order filter, but its small values so that is good.
Woofer needs 6,2mH coil and 220uF cap, but woofers are like that so not much to do here.
Its quite stabile on around 3 ohm impedance at 100, 300 and 3200 hz, and think receivers and most "normal" amp`s can manage it.
Don´t now if its going to fall off "to much" with 4,5dB from around 400hz to 10.000hz
Quite close to your desire Ray
Best regards John
Attachments
Ok,Yes Ray, for sure this is a tricky one.
Maby it`s Jamos front baffle with an 5 mm edge protruding out each side on the tweeter which makes the tweeter difficult to achieve perfectly,.
The sides goes 5mm out so the frontcovers "goes in totaly" on/in the speaker, and that make a 5mm edge on both sides of the tweeter affecting the mesaurements.
Dont know ideal liter volume for the 5FE120 either, they maby would have work "better" i separate chambers.
And maby the 5mm edge affecting them also a little bit.
Working on a "new modified" xover with less parts, and maby i will get some "forward" with it, i wil know tomorrow!
But the speaker sounds real good as it is now anyway!
The sound "releases" very well from the speaker, and lots of micro details over hole spectrum and absolutely no listening fatigue or "tired ears"
Good speed and punch from the 5FE120.
Will try out it tomorrow, and come back
Interesting!....Always had loved textile dome, but many tweeters today "sounds like it" i hear and read.
How low does it go with the 5fe100, and where have you put xover-point?
Im was a carpenter, but i understand the difficulties with woodworking hahaha.....And big speakers is a lots of work!
My home looks like ****, when im building/tweaking/mesauring speakers
Best regards John
Yes the sound does release quite well. We agree on that.
Your point about the cabinet edges is one I had not really considered, neither did manufacturers for many years. However, people now consider the overall sound energy and try to manage that so it tends towards a gentle downward slope to Higher frequencies. With your particular baffle shape it could be interesting for you to take measurements not only on axis but at 10,15,30,45, and 60 degrees and display them on the same screen, it may show how some of the peaks you have measured are much reduced or become troughs at different angles. If you or the software can mentally judge the average of these, just a few tweaks of the roll on roll off components can balance their affect. Your on axis may look worse, but overall it is a more balanced speaker.
You say you like the sound as they are which is encouraging. For some that would be enough. But, as you were a carpenter you will want true 90 degrees and 45 degree mitres.😂
Your graphs look nice.
But how do they sound?
What you have should be able to be adjusted gently now to get the balance you like if its a bit too much. Because of the size of your living space it may be a good match already.
Attached is a snapshot of the the 5fe100 and SB19 tweeter sim and measured.
Bass impedance peak at 100Hz or thereabout, the box is sealed unlined, bare MDF and the back is a push fit to allow quick xover component changes. Once screed down and properly sealed and lagged maybe some of the ripples and the waterfall plot may tidy up a bit more.
Listening to the radio with it right now.
I may lower the treble a little bit more maybe going down to a value on the first tweeter capacitor and increase the resitance value by one more value. to get a little bit more bass i will need to add some MDF chunks to see if it can increase the Q. I could try a port but I and get more bass that way, but I do like sealed designs for the most part.
But how do they sound?
What you have should be able to be adjusted gently now to get the balance you like if its a bit too much. Because of the size of your living space it may be a good match already.
Attached is a snapshot of the the 5fe100 and SB19 tweeter sim and measured.
Bass impedance peak at 100Hz or thereabout, the box is sealed unlined, bare MDF and the back is a push fit to allow quick xover component changes. Once screed down and properly sealed and lagged maybe some of the ripples and the waterfall plot may tidy up a bit more.
Listening to the radio with it right now.
I may lower the treble a little bit more maybe going down to a value on the first tweeter capacitor and increase the resitance value by one more value. to get a little bit more bass i will need to add some MDF chunks to see if it can increase the Q. I could try a port but I and get more bass that way, but I do like sealed designs for the most part.
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How do you know when microfone is 10,15,30,45, and 60 degrees ?
Is there a easy way thinking?
Hahaha....the 90 is easy, more trubble with exact 45 !
Many machines are +-2 and not perfect for the job
Here is first measurements 10uF, 0,18uH, 10uf , 3,3 ohm on tweeter, 1mH, 30uF on midrange.
I try with 5,6 ohm resistor then 3,3 ohm and last one 1 ohm
And measurements are like this....Think a have to lower the midrange a bit and try again.
But the 2-3dB drop at 3500hz seems hard to fix
Have not listening yet, and will do so when im a little more pleased with "over al" curve
Petty i can`t "read out" everything on photo ( im to dumb
)But seems real hard to get a -+2dB curve in real life hahaha
Quite clean waterfall
Best regards John
Attachments
Have listening a bit now on the "new" xover, but most say it`s reeeeeeeal hard to judge sound between filters.
I can`t disconnect the woofer in the modified originalfilter without "to much work", and that made it even harder to compare the two.
So damn strong bass from the modified originalfilter...not right with + 9dB at 50-60hz but funny 😁
One thing i notice immediately was that "new" filter has less sensitivity, so i measaure both (one at the time) with same output from 1 meter.
And i listen on music very loud, so think i must go for the modified original xover, but have to fix response under 300hz.
As you can se both curves are quite nice, and of course a 2-way filter is "more easy" to achieve.
But in my case i build a 3 way, so ihave to fix the response under 300hz and go for modified 3 way originalfilter
I can`t disconnect the woofer in the modified originalfilter without "to much work", and that made it even harder to compare the two.
So damn strong bass from the modified originalfilter...not right with + 9dB at 50-60hz but funny 😁
One thing i notice immediately was that "new" filter has less sensitivity, so i measaure both (one at the time) with same output from 1 meter.
And i listen on music very loud, so think i must go for the modified original xover, but have to fix response under 300hz.
As you can se both curves are quite nice, and of course a 2-way filter is "more easy" to achieve.
But in my case i build a 3 way, so ihave to fix the response under 300hz and go for modified 3 way originalfilter
Attachments
Much like woodworking you have learned a lot with this project.
Your personal dB tolerances are tight especially for in room measured response.
For the bass question it may be you have to use some attenuation of the mids to bring them down so that the bass can contribute in a more even way. At the same time it may help to prevent a 200-300 Hz suckout. But that is a common room mode area so difficult to measure as you realise. You can hear there is currently a big excess so you can let your hears help decide the final balance.
Looking at your response and remembering that the ear is less sensitive to troughs than peaks, you response between 1-2KHz may still be a bit hot. I had to much in the same area with the two way for several iterations.
You can hear lots of detail, the stuff people talk about never hearing before in a recording but it needs real careful consideration . It is quite common to have a shallow dip around the 1.5 - 3KHz area some times a slightly bigger frequency dip.. It might be worth spending a little more time there before the final attack on the bass response.
Your personal dB tolerances are tight especially for in room measured response.
For the bass question it may be you have to use some attenuation of the mids to bring them down so that the bass can contribute in a more even way. At the same time it may help to prevent a 200-300 Hz suckout. But that is a common room mode area so difficult to measure as you realise. You can hear there is currently a big excess so you can let your hears help decide the final balance.
Looking at your response and remembering that the ear is less sensitive to troughs than peaks, you response between 1-2KHz may still be a bit hot. I had to much in the same area with the two way for several iterations.
You can hear lots of detail, the stuff people talk about never hearing before in a recording but it needs real careful consideration . It is quite common to have a shallow dip around the 1.5 - 3KHz area some times a slightly bigger frequency dip.. It might be worth spending a little more time there before the final attack on the bass response.
Jawen
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I didn't have the time to make a measurement (in my way for the moment)
However, under Winisd:
- the fentons have an excellent rendering compared to the peerless
+2 ohms and a less tortured curve on the distance (in short with one problem less)
- moreover a better response on high bass and low medium in SPL
For the curves with Xsim
here is what the rendering gives without test in the real life by not taking into account the bass having no measure to integrate to xsim for the fentons
and taking into account that the impedance response should be better from 30@200hz than the one we see (considering the behavior under winisd of the fenton +2 ohms vs peerless)
what do you think about it?
- for the brand fenton it is a brand of sono of good quality (and not annoying for woofers in push pull)
- this solution has been used by a french Diyer with success on 707 before
______
I didn't have the time to make a measurement (in my way for the moment)
However, under Winisd:
- the fentons have an excellent rendering compared to the peerless
+2 ohms and a less tortured curve on the distance (in short with one problem less)
- moreover a better response on high bass and low medium in SPL
For the curves with Xsim
- I am at this stage
- woofer 150µF+72µF @ 150 + 47
- medium 10µF@18µF
- tweeter 4.7µF@10µF
- resistor (tweeter) 3.3ohms 5W@0.51 ohms
here is what the rendering gives without test in the real life by not taking into account the bass having no measure to integrate to xsim for the fentons
and taking into account that the impedance response should be better from 30@200hz than the one we see (considering the behavior under winisd of the fenton +2 ohms vs peerless)
what do you think about it?
Attachments
Yea, ivè learn a bit...But still stuggeling witch component value at witch place change the frequency where?
In this scenario XSim is to far away from mesauring results, so can just use XSim as a "small helper".
And i go "all in" always wishing to create a curve like i want to have, but i also know it`s unrealistic hahaha
Im not that good reading out those photos you send, but you`r xover in XSim look like nothing ivè seen.
Will be real interesting when you can mesaure you "ide´s", and se if the Fenton woofer is easier to implant.
Think its impossible to make a "new front-plate" for the mids and twe, AND still use the original grill.
In that case you have to make a new grill....Maby just 5mm mdf-plate and black polyestercloth.
But think you must build up original holes from tweeter and mid, so hole baffle get "massive"
I did a test on modified Jamo originalfilter, i took away 150uF cap so now its 150uF insteed of 300uF.
The big BUMP at 60hz is gone with -5dB, but now a "suck-out" between 90-300hz ??
Best regards John
Attachments
That appears to be getting closer, maybe some subtle room placement, or the old sock in the hole trick to dampen an over enthusiastic bass. Not sure whether you should use cheap everyday socks, thermal, silk, wool or exotic audio ones. You will have to do some more measurements and publish you findings.
Hahaha.....Old sock in the woofer-hole trick 😁
Put a 5,6 ohm resistor after 150uF at modified origninal Jamo xover and measaure from 1 meter with 1/1 smooting and 1/6
Quite troublesome as I need to unscrew the original filter every time I test other components
Put a 5,6 ohm resistor after 150uF at modified origninal Jamo xover and measaure from 1 meter with 1/1 smooting and 1/6
Quite troublesome as I need to unscrew the original filter every time I test other components
Attachments
Hard to do so i think Belemakare and at the same time get it to look real good like original does ( even if it`s possible, i don`t prefer port in front either)
Not either sure the reflex port is the "little problem" here, more the woofers sound wave.
So place the speaker a bit out from the frontwall, i think is more relevant to dampen the bass a little.
PS! The "real good" spl curve in my earlier post also have original port!...But i have modified a new 50 cm 100mm port in the other speaker, but that speaker still don`t have a finish xover because I'm still working/testing it
Best regard John