Ahhh now I see the problem... where I had the idea that this was not an utimate reference was from Moondogs post in the 2 way reference thread which kicked off this thread... So here is the context upon which I based my comments on being clear on what we mean by reference 
So I guess It can be a reference design for a speaker that can be built below a certain cost..
also this from early in the thread
Tony.
So I guess It can be a reference design for a speaker that can be built below a certain cost.. also this from early in the thread
Tony.
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OK if looking at this from another point of view, don't call it a "reference " speaker, let's call it "The Baseline"
As in a starting point.
I would like to think that it could be done for much less than $700- AUD plus woodwork.
So good quality but value drivers and no esoteric capacitors or coils, although that option is always available to those with the wherewithal.
Rough guide? tweeter $100-/pr Mid $150/pr Bass $150-200/pr, anyone recommend a woofer for that price that will work with a first order electrical at a reasonably low XO
As in a starting point.
I would like to think that it could be done for much less than $700- AUD plus woodwork.
So good quality but value drivers and no esoteric capacitors or coils, although that option is always available to those with the wherewithal.
Rough guide? tweeter $100-/pr Mid $150/pr Bass $150-200/pr, anyone recommend a woofer for that price that will work with a first order electrical at a reasonably low XO
Moondog55, now it´s much easier to see what you want / expect.
The midrange Monacor drivers I have mentioned before will fit perfectly into the price range you have mentioned.
The bass unit might be a little more expensive than 200 $ Au/pair - but not much. It is rated at 91 dB/1 W/1m (calculation using T-S parameters show 90,5 dB). It will go pretty low in a sealed enclosure. It is almost ruler flat up to 2 kHz.
I can tell you that it has almost exactly the same T-S parameters as Mr. Skaaning (AudioTechnology) suggested me when I was asking him for for the "perfect" 10" driver for a sealed cabinet (!!!).
When going for a Q=0,5 (best impulse response) the volume of the cabinet will be approx. 80liters. Then the sound level will only be 15 dB down at 20 Hz (!).
Q=0,707: Cabinet volume will be approx. 35 liters but the sound level will now be approx. 20 dB down at 20 Hz.
The above shown calculations are only "rough" to give you an idea of how big the bass cabinet will be depending of what you want from it. Unfortunately I can not make any calculations if you want a ported system.....
Retail of Monacor products in Australia: Hifi, Car Audio, Pro Audio and DIY - Soundlabs Group Online
Karsten
The midrange Monacor drivers I have mentioned before will fit perfectly into the price range you have mentioned.
The bass unit might be a little more expensive than 200 $ Au/pair - but not much. It is rated at 91 dB/1 W/1m (calculation using T-S parameters show 90,5 dB). It will go pretty low in a sealed enclosure. It is almost ruler flat up to 2 kHz.
I can tell you that it has almost exactly the same T-S parameters as Mr. Skaaning (AudioTechnology) suggested me when I was asking him for for the "perfect" 10" driver for a sealed cabinet (!!!).
When going for a Q=0,5 (best impulse response) the volume of the cabinet will be approx. 80liters. Then the sound level will only be 15 dB down at 20 Hz (!).
Q=0,707: Cabinet volume will be approx. 35 liters but the sound level will now be approx. 20 dB down at 20 Hz.
The above shown calculations are only "rough" to give you an idea of how big the bass cabinet will be depending of what you want from it. Unfortunately I can not make any calculations if you want a ported system.....
Retail of Monacor products in Australia: Hifi, Car Audio, Pro Audio and DIY - Soundlabs Group Online
Karsten
W 250 S - 8 Ohm - Soundlabs Group
Much more affordable for the budget mentioned
or a pair of these
W 200 S - 8 Ohm - Soundlabs Group
Although that Monacor woofer is nice
Much more affordable for the budget mentioned
or a pair of these
W 200 S - 8 Ohm - Soundlabs Group
Although that Monacor woofer is nice
The 2-way reference speaker thread was to create a reference point speaker that was economical so a lot of builders could get their foot in the door with an easy proven design. I still use mine as a reference point against any new design as it has a good balance without any nasties plus it's a very familiar sound.
It's a good call to do this with a 3-way as there are lots of builders who want to build something like this without a huge outlay. This would be a huge step up from the little 2-way with added bass, SPL and power handling capabilities so music can get more life like.
I'm not recommending this speaker but gives you an idea of what can be on offer using good quality but not expensive drivers.
Troel's 3W Classic
You need drivers that a readily available, have a reasonable expected retail availabilty and are known to perform well. It's easiest if they all come from the same manufacture such as in the 3W Classic. Contenders have to be SEAS as they do have the Prestige range that seem to live on for years but not only that they have drivers that excel (no pun intended) for tweeters, mids, woofers. Very few other manufacturers have that but of course you can mix and match brands but was thinking availability and shipping costs (from the same supplier). SEAS is a problem in Australia but that might change with the new distributor in NZ who may do a special price for this project. SB Acoustics are another possibility but not familiar with their tweeters (the one in the Madisound RBR looks very good). Tymphany products seem all over the place at the moment and need time to settle down. Peerless have a reputation on pulling the plug on drivers rapidly so would count them out even though there are some crackers (such as the Nomex).
The other thing to consider is the size of the mid.... speed (say 4") or extension (5"-6") so most of the mids are carried by 1 driver and the woofer crossed over lower. For the woofer it has to be 10" minimum to be effective.
There are a lot of projects available which use expensive drivers and can be called true reference speakers but something like that would have a very small builder following and I think misses the intention of this thread.
I'll sit back and enjoy this thread as it evolves.
It's a good call to do this with a 3-way as there are lots of builders who want to build something like this without a huge outlay. This would be a huge step up from the little 2-way with added bass, SPL and power handling capabilities so music can get more life like.
I'm not recommending this speaker but gives you an idea of what can be on offer using good quality but not expensive drivers.
Troel's 3W Classic
You need drivers that a readily available, have a reasonable expected retail availabilty and are known to perform well. It's easiest if they all come from the same manufacture such as in the 3W Classic. Contenders have to be SEAS as they do have the Prestige range that seem to live on for years but not only that they have drivers that excel (no pun intended) for tweeters, mids, woofers. Very few other manufacturers have that but of course you can mix and match brands but was thinking availability and shipping costs (from the same supplier). SEAS is a problem in Australia but that might change with the new distributor in NZ who may do a special price for this project. SB Acoustics are another possibility but not familiar with their tweeters (the one in the Madisound RBR looks very good). Tymphany products seem all over the place at the moment and need time to settle down. Peerless have a reputation on pulling the plug on drivers rapidly so would count them out even though there are some crackers (such as the Nomex).
The other thing to consider is the size of the mid.... speed (say 4") or extension (5"-6") so most of the mids are carried by 1 driver and the woofer crossed over lower. For the woofer it has to be 10" minimum to be effective.
There are a lot of projects available which use expensive drivers and can be called true reference speakers but something like that would have a very small builder following and I think misses the intention of this thread.
I'll sit back and enjoy this thread as it evolves.
3 way is classic
Think the best I've ever heard is the Wilson Sophia.
I've had my eys on the Dayton 10" refference sub (RSS 265 HF-4) for some time. If the TS parameters are correct, put it in a 60-70 l vented enclosure and get super bass. Only problem is the 4 ohm ..... but I think I would go for a electronic Xover for bass and separate amp anyway.
For mid, I would go for a 6". Smaller units actually tend to have higer distortion, also up in upper mids .... so the only problem will be that you have to cross over a bit lower to the tweeter.
If you want to save some money, go for the Dayton RS180S-8, otherwise I would go for the ScanSpeak 6" Revelator.
As for tweeter I'm not so sure. To save money go for the Peerless HDS 810921 1". If you have a lot of money the ScanSpeak 6600 or a Focal TC 120 TD5 (or if you have too much money the Focal Be or the new ScanSpeack Berylium).
But the drivers are only half the solution, x-over over is very impotant ...
Looking forward to see YOUR solution rabbitz
Think the best I've ever heard is the Wilson Sophia.
I've had my eys on the Dayton 10" refference sub (RSS 265 HF-4) for some time. If the TS parameters are correct, put it in a 60-70 l vented enclosure and get super bass. Only problem is the 4 ohm
..... but I think I would go for a electronic Xover for bass and separate amp anyway.For mid, I would go for a 6". Smaller units actually tend to have higer distortion, also up in upper mids .... so the only problem will be that you have to cross over a bit lower to the tweeter.
If you want to save some money, go for the Dayton RS180S-8, otherwise I would go for the ScanSpeak 6" Revelator.
As for tweeter I'm not so sure. To save money go for the Peerless HDS 810921 1". If you have a lot of money the ScanSpeak 6600 or a Focal TC 120 TD5 (or if you have too much money the Focal Be or the new ScanSpeack Berylium).
But the drivers are only half the solution, x-over over is very impotant ...
Looking forward to see YOUR solution rabbitz
Now I see what you mean by a reference project...Why not to look at some other drivers like the Seas Reed cones which look very promising or SB acoustics? For midrange I know the Seas 12MCARC performs very well when used OB. Tweeters - maybe the Peerless HDS or Vifa Xt25TG, the Vifa will need higher cut off freq. I also have red some very good reviews about the Peerless HDS woofers, although I do not like them because of the very high vc inductance.
Moondog55, yes, the shown drivers are very nice. Haven´t heard them, though.
I agree with Rabbitz that at least a 10" woofer must be used for the bass. Or maybe two of the 8" Visaton in parallel and a 4 Ohm mid + a 4 Ohm tweeter. A lot of the tweeters today are 4 Ohms so this will be easy.
OK, maybe a 4 Ohm system is not the best choice for tube amps?
If 4 Ohms is not a problem maybe a MTMWW system could be nice for bringing up the sensitivity? This should not be a major problem when using nice, cheap/affordable drivers for the system. In this way it should be relatively easy to obtain a system sensitivity of 90-91 dB.
I fully agree with Baldin - the cross-over is extremely important. Even though the budget might be low it is still important to use very good components (not necessarily boutique!) for the cross-over. Try to find some nice, approved components. Please bear in mind that the price will increase 10-fold if "Audio", "High-End" or similar is stamped on the components.
Karsten
I agree with Rabbitz that at least a 10" woofer must be used for the bass. Or maybe two of the 8" Visaton in parallel and a 4 Ohm mid + a 4 Ohm tweeter. A lot of the tweeters today are 4 Ohms so this will be easy.
OK, maybe a 4 Ohm system is not the best choice for tube amps?
If 4 Ohms is not a problem maybe a MTMWW system could be nice for bringing up the sensitivity? This should not be a major problem when using nice, cheap/affordable drivers for the system. In this way it should be relatively easy to obtain a system sensitivity of 90-91 dB.
I fully agree with Baldin - the cross-over is extremely important. Even though the budget might be low it is still important to use very good components (not necessarily boutique!) for the cross-over. Try to find some nice, approved components. Please bear in mind that the price will increase 10-fold if "Audio", "High-End" or similar is stamped on the components
.Karsten
Well damn, that rules out most of my ideas
I was thinking something along the lines of Raal tweeter, Accuton Mids and Scanspeak bass. Just a pair of the tweets would have already blown your whole budget and then some 
Maybe the mods could change the title to say "budget reference" or put your price guidelines into your first post so people who join late will know what the budget constraints are?
I would recommend the Hi-Vi SP10 for the subwoofer. Although it only gives an estimate, WinISD showed that one can get to 20Hz with a 1dB drop (& +/-1dB ripple) in an 85L ported enclosure, which is pretty darn good. Of course, this comes from me defining reference more as a system from which comparisons can be drawn, rather than being an ultimate, no holds-barred rig.
Parts-Express.com:*HiVi SP10 10" Subwoofer | Subwoofer 10" sub 10 inch subwoofer flat cone car audio subwoofer
I don't know why the title says "car" in it...that's not how I found it. Oh well.
As far as the mid's & tweeters, I think there have been some good suggestions thus far.
Parts-Express.com:*HiVi SP10 10" Subwoofer | Subwoofer 10" sub 10 inch subwoofer flat cone car audio subwoofer
I don't know why the title says "car" in it...that's not how I found it. Oh well.
As far as the mid's & tweeters, I think there have been some good suggestions thus far.
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Sadly, Monacor are not easily available in North America so don't satisfy the widely available criteria.
dave
Yes, but the sensitivity is only stated as 84 dB. Only in the frequency range between 30 Hz and approx. 150 Hz the sensitivity is higher than 80 dB. This is pretty low, I think. Unfortunately way too low if I were to make a decision.
Karsten
Arrrgh! Sorry Planet10!
I haven´t seen that. It´s a shame because the drivers are very good and the prices are fair. Maybe they can be bought via ebay or just generelly via the Internet?!
Karsten.
Yes, that's often the trade-off I find...lower frequency response for lower sensitivity. I suppose that the 500W power rating might be their way of "coping" with that, although that means one would need to spend a lot more in amplification. Anyway, I am staying-tuned to see what else pops up! Good suggestions so far!
That is a price range, where you find many interesting drivers. The important thing is to specify, what should be reference level and which compromises are acceptable.
- Should the speaker be floor-standing?
- Should it be designed for best performance, when free standing or with its back to the wall? In a highly dampened or rather highly reflective room?
- Is high SPL and flat impedance necessary for a combination with tube amps?
- Or is it more important to have a flat and extended frequency response?
- Are there any size constraints other than the abstract WAF? Women are surprisingly tolerant towards speaker size, when the speakers not noly sound good, but when they also look good, i. e. when they are not the usual angular boxes and when the finish matches the furniture.
An interesting combination with reference virtues is the Trio from HiFi-Selbstbau, a German DIY site. It uses Visaton's KE25SC ceramic dome tweeter, Visaton's AL130M aluminium mid-range and Alcone's AC10HE aluminium woofer in a 32 x 42 x 90 cm enclosure with a slightly backward tilted front. Woofer and mid range fit into your price range, if they sell at the same price in Australia as here. The tweeter however costs double as much as you specified. Tang Band's 28-1582 could be a good replacement at ~120 AU$. Or maybe the much cheaper Tang Band 25-1819 (~50 AU$) would fit better, as it also is a ceramic dome tweeter like the KE25SC.
I thought this was going o be an interesting thread, until I got to here. I was sort of hoping for something that might challenge these which sounded great last w/e. At least until one of the tweets died.
Lots of threads here reference drivers that aren't available freely outside the US and we all seem to manage.
Sorry Brett
But
Not all of us have your skills and not all of us can afford that quality of driver for a first time 3-way project.
I still think it's a valid thread and I may learn something along the way I can use for my next project
Given the interest, would it make sense for another thread for a superior performing design say 3 (3.5) or 4 way with drivers and basic crossover budgeted around $1500. Say 1200 USD.
Using the reference concept as per moon dog, We can start with a solid performer, then It shouldn't be difficult to incorporate some upgraded drivers probably Mid and HF while trying to maintain or utilize a modification of the original enclosure.
Crossover components can be substituted allowing others to decide their own budget there.
i' and i think others would like something that can be put into the lounge without WW3 but doesn't makes you wish you didn't fight to the death!!!
Using the reference concept as per moon dog, We can start with a solid performer, then It shouldn't be difficult to incorporate some upgraded drivers probably Mid and HF while trying to maintain or utilize a modification of the original enclosure.
Crossover components can be substituted allowing others to decide their own budget there.
i' and i think others would like something that can be put into the lounge without WW3 but doesn't makes you wish you didn't fight to the death!!!