Hi everyone,
I have been running a set of Dynaudio System 220 mk2s in home made boxes in our loungeroom for many years now.
System 220 (excuse the ad, pic from net):
I have recently decided to bite the bullet & would like to run my Dynaudio MW170 8in midbass drivers as well in a passive 3 way setup in new braced & baffled MDF boxes.
I have read some threads here showing this is possible & I can integrate the existing system 220 mk2 crossovers 'downstream' to handle the higher frequency band in each crossover network, with the 8's run from below a crossover point & slope of my choosing.
Some absolute noob questions I have from my initial readings:
1: I am assuming I use the 4ohm nominal impedance value instead of the 3.1ohm measured resistive value in crossover calculations, is this correct?
2: On the Dynaudio X360 (3 way) crossovers that are used for the era of drivers I have, Dynaudio advertise 6db slopes as used on the midbass crossover point @ 900hz. Would that be an indication of a simple 6db slope being suited to the 8in driver, or is the X360 crossover network more sophisticated than it appears? (There is a bit going on inside as per pic)
3: As above, should I also aim for 900hz as the midbass crossover point, or something else? (I typically run a lower midbass crossover point in 3 way active car audio installs, but I am still learning with home audio)
Inside:
Appreciate any advice or experience people can share 🙂
Although this will be my first attempt at a crossover build, I am eager to learn!
Thanks.
I have been running a set of Dynaudio System 220 mk2s in home made boxes in our loungeroom for many years now.
System 220 (excuse the ad, pic from net):
I have recently decided to bite the bullet & would like to run my Dynaudio MW170 8in midbass drivers as well in a passive 3 way setup in new braced & baffled MDF boxes.
I have read some threads here showing this is possible & I can integrate the existing system 220 mk2 crossovers 'downstream' to handle the higher frequency band in each crossover network, with the 8's run from below a crossover point & slope of my choosing.
Some absolute noob questions I have from my initial readings:
1: I am assuming I use the 4ohm nominal impedance value instead of the 3.1ohm measured resistive value in crossover calculations, is this correct?
2: On the Dynaudio X360 (3 way) crossovers that are used for the era of drivers I have, Dynaudio advertise 6db slopes as used on the midbass crossover point @ 900hz. Would that be an indication of a simple 6db slope being suited to the 8in driver, or is the X360 crossover network more sophisticated than it appears? (There is a bit going on inside as per pic)
3: As above, should I also aim for 900hz as the midbass crossover point, or something else? (I typically run a lower midbass crossover point in 3 way active car audio installs, but I am still learning with home audio)
Inside:
Appreciate any advice or experience people can share 🙂
Although this will be my first attempt at a crossover build, I am eager to learn!
Thanks.
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That's Easy to 'schematize'.
2 and 3 are the input.
Signal goes to a coil and two capacitors, First.
The coil (about 1.5-2 mH) performs the LP. The 150 uF/6.8R doesn't justify for a 2nd order (?!)...ok, send the LP signal to the woofer.
Midrange needs both HP and LP. You see a 20 uF cap and a coil, all in series.
The tweeter deserves a second order filter which Is performed by the 10 uF cap followed by the coil (this Is in parallel)
Resistors do the attenuation of the signal.
You see that all the values are chosen for a reason, and all are interdipendent because if you change one parameter, the others will follow
2 and 3 are the input.
Signal goes to a coil and two capacitors, First.
The coil (about 1.5-2 mH) performs the LP. The 150 uF/6.8R doesn't justify for a 2nd order (?!)...ok, send the LP signal to the woofer.
Midrange needs both HP and LP. You see a 20 uF cap and a coil, all in series.
The tweeter deserves a second order filter which Is performed by the 10 uF cap followed by the coil (this Is in parallel)
Resistors do the attenuation of the signal.
You see that all the values are chosen for a reason, and all are interdipendent because if you change one parameter, the others will follow
Regarding the question, whether to put the MW170 to work with the 5 (and 3/4) inches and the rest...
I'd put a smaller midrange, Say a 3".
This allows for a higher crossover cut for both mid and tweeter, as in the 3 Way crossover you showed. Mantaining the 2 way crossover implies a cut @ 2-3 kHz, which Is what you would want when you use a 6" and a 1" dome.
I'd put a smaller midrange, Say a 3".
This allows for a higher crossover cut for both mid and tweeter, as in the 3 Way crossover you showed. Mantaining the 2 way crossover implies a cut @ 2-3 kHz, which Is what you would want when you use a 6" and a 1" dome.
Interesting to hear your interpretation of the X360 setup!
If it's best practice to follow Dynaudio in terms of the crossover points & slopes I'm happy to use the X360 as guide. The only issue I have with following it completely would be the typical MW140/2 mid driver that comes with the Dyn system 360 is actually 8ohm (for whatever reason) & both the System 220 MW150 & tweet I currently use are both 4ohm.
With that in mind I'm hoping to retain my current System 220 on the high frequencies & add a woofer crossover on the lower end for the 8in MW170.
I'm just assuming that the 360 8ohm MW140/2 changes things & I can't copy the design completely, so I'm happy to add a 4ohm midbass crossover onto the 4ohm system 220 I already have.
Unless I've got it all wrong?
If it's best practice to follow Dynaudio in terms of the crossover points & slopes I'm happy to use the X360 as guide. The only issue I have with following it completely would be the typical MW140/2 mid driver that comes with the Dyn system 360 is actually 8ohm (for whatever reason) & both the System 220 MW150 & tweet I currently use are both 4ohm.
With that in mind I'm hoping to retain my current System 220 on the high frequencies & add a woofer crossover on the lower end for the 8in MW170.
I'm just assuming that the 360 8ohm MW140/2 changes things & I can't copy the design completely, so I'm happy to add a 4ohm midbass crossover onto the 4ohm system 220 I already have.
Unless I've got it all wrong?
Ideally I could do something with a smaller mid as you say (& I may in the future), though for now I'm happy to add the MW170 to the current setup as I have all these drivers, am happy with the sound of the System 220 & want to make use of them all if possible!Regarding the question, whether to put the MW170 to work with the 5 (and 3/4) inches and the rest...
I'd put a smaller midrange, Say a 3".
This allows for a higher crossover cut for both mid and tweeter, as in the 3 Way crossover you showed. Maintaining the 2 way crossover implies a cut @ 2-3 kHz, which Is what you would want when you use a 6" and a 1" dome.
(They sounded great together in the old car setup)
Oh well, the environment inside a car Is different than a room with walls.
The speakers are positioned differently
Mostly in a car you hear a 'melange' because direct sound hardly hits your thympanies at First.
In house, in a room, you can position the speakers frontally and have them stacked on vertical axys.
I'd Say to put the Dynaudio MW170 in a box and leave the mid & tw without box.
Dynaudio MW170 Is 8 Ohm...
It'll Need a coil of higher value.
Same for the midrange: it'll Need a larger cap and so on( not counting the driver behaviour i.e. reactance, Mass, suspensions etc.)
The speakers are positioned differently
Mostly in a car you hear a 'melange' because direct sound hardly hits your thympanies at First.
In house, in a room, you can position the speakers frontally and have them stacked on vertical axys.
I'd Say to put the Dynaudio MW170 in a box and leave the mid & tw without box.
Dynaudio MW170 Is 8 Ohm...
It'll Need a coil of higher value.
Same for the midrange: it'll Need a larger cap and so on( not counting the driver behaviour i.e. reactance, Mass, suspensions etc.)
Sorry, but my MW170s are 4ohm 🙂
Agree that they are very different environments, as I typically work in cars.
Regarding boxes, I've already made the new ones with separate compartments for the 220 & the 8s, the crossover is the final part before I paint, test & tweak them.
Agree that they are very different environments, as I typically work in cars.
Regarding boxes, I've already made the new ones with separate compartments for the 220 & the 8s, the crossover is the final part before I paint, test & tweak them.
Better suggestions could be offered if there was a schematic of the 220 and 360 boards. Every inductor should be measured with one leg desoldered from circuit. The task of adding a woofer is easily solved if you are equipped for measurements. Midrange dome used in 360 was 8 ohm nominal because there was no other version of it and its sensitivity high enough for the application.
I could certainly take the System 220 crossovers (Dynaudio X250) apart & take detail pics of the circuit as per the X360 above, but I didn't think I had to do this?
(please excuse terrible ascii drawing .. hope it makes sense)
My plan has been:
Amp
|
| (full range signal)
|
DIY crossover --(lows from DIY crossover)--> MW170
|
| (highs from DIY crossover)
|
X250---> MW150 (mid) & MW100 (tweet)
My very basic understanding of 3 way crossover design was that you could 'waterfall' 2 way crossovers like this to make a 3 way setup?
Is this not correct? I'm happy to learn if I am misunderstanding.
(please excuse terrible ascii drawing .. hope it makes sense)
My plan has been:
Amp
|
| (full range signal)
|
DIY crossover --(lows from DIY crossover)--> MW170
|
| (highs from DIY crossover)
|
X250---> MW150 (mid) & MW100 (tweet)
My very basic understanding of 3 way crossover design was that you could 'waterfall' 2 way crossovers like this to make a 3 way setup?
Is this not correct? I'm happy to learn if I am misunderstanding.
Nope, because the introduction of a speaker must be balanced somehow in the overall emission (...mèlange ?!)
So a midrange would allow the woofer to play one octave less and so the tweeter, an octave or two less
So a midrange would allow the woofer to play one octave less and so the tweeter, an octave or two less
To execute a successful 3 way design, one should at least set up a simulation using manufacturer datasheet and observe what kind of response/impedance changes a single component in a circuit does. In order to assess that, you gather parts values (220/360) you have. This is the shortest and safest way leading to a success. Both woofers are 4 ohm and x/o parts should be carefully chosen to not ruin the impedance profile by making it too great a load to an amplifier.
One is free to decide any course of action one believes to be the right one.
One is free to decide any course of action one believes to be the right one.
Yes, but it doesn't necessarily work as simply as it is written here. At the least we can say that it won't stop you from doing it.you could 'waterfall' 2 way crossovers like this to make a 3 way setup?
OK, I have been making a fair few assumptions due to my initial reading & limited understanding. There are only a few things I know for sure:
Would it be possible to get some guidance & thoughts if I can provide all the Dynaudio driver specs? I am treating this as a learning experience & also want great sound, as both these things are something I really enjoy.
I'll post the specs & info I have already (sorry for the terrible quality on the images, these are directly from an old Dynaudio PDF)
MW100
Specs
Freq response
MW150
Specs
Impedance correction circuit (hard to read!)
Impedance
Freq response
MW170
Specs
Impedance correction circuit
Impedance
Freq response
X250 crossover info:
Tweeter crossover 3000hz @ 12db
Woofer crossover 3000hz @ 6db
X360 hand drawn schematic (?) from the net (X360 uses smaller 8ohm dome mid, though was intended for MW100 & MW170 use)
- I am happy to learn & grow, I could really use some pointers.
- I enjoy the current sound of the Dynaudio Sys 220 splits & would like to add the MW170s, as..
- The 3 way (X250, MW100, MW150 & active MW170) setup in my old car was very nice & blended well with 2 IDQ12 subs.
- Though I am happy with the x250 crossover characteristics & wanted to 'add' to it, I am also happy to build a full 3 way crossover from scratch if that is the best way to go!
Would it be possible to get some guidance & thoughts if I can provide all the Dynaudio driver specs? I am treating this as a learning experience & also want great sound, as both these things are something I really enjoy.
I'll post the specs & info I have already (sorry for the terrible quality on the images, these are directly from an old Dynaudio PDF)
MW100
Specs
Freq response
MW150
Specs
Impedance correction circuit (hard to read!)
Impedance
Freq response
MW170
Specs
Impedance correction circuit
Impedance
Freq response
X250 crossover info:
Tweeter crossover 3000hz @ 12db
Woofer crossover 3000hz @ 6db
X360 hand drawn schematic (?) from the net (X360 uses smaller 8ohm dome mid, though was intended for MW100 & MW170 use)
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At the current point in time these are the questions I have:
1) It was mentioned that 'waterfalling' 2 way crossovers to make a 3+ way eg:
..might not be so simple & there is more to it. Is there an obvious reason why? I thought the inductor & cap crossed over at an appropriate freq at the first 2 way makes the amp only 'see' one circuit (assuming there is no 'resistive overlap'?)
2) I currently do not understand the requirement for specific octave separation in online calculators for 3 way crossover points. I understand crossover point choice & frequency response overlap so that separate drivers blend well, but is there a reason for specific ratios? I have never worried about this too much before in active setups & typically run the midbass drivers crossed over relatively low (~70 - ~250hz on average when running 3 way).
3) Should I open up a X250 crossover to take pics at what is going on in there for reference as well? (seeing as I enjoy the current sound profile)
Thanks for the input & feedback so far.
1) It was mentioned that 'waterfalling' 2 way crossovers to make a 3+ way eg:
..might not be so simple & there is more to it. Is there an obvious reason why? I thought the inductor & cap crossed over at an appropriate freq at the first 2 way makes the amp only 'see' one circuit (assuming there is no 'resistive overlap'?)
2) I currently do not understand the requirement for specific octave separation in online calculators for 3 way crossover points. I understand crossover point choice & frequency response overlap so that separate drivers blend well, but is there a reason for specific ratios? I have never worried about this too much before in active setups & typically run the midbass drivers crossed over relatively low (~70 - ~250hz on average when running 3 way).
3) Should I open up a X250 crossover to take pics at what is going on in there for reference as well? (seeing as I enjoy the current sound profile)
Thanks for the input & feedback so far.
Perhaps it's best to start with choosing the crossover frequencies, justifying the choice.
What size is the woofer of the 220? I may have seen 5"? 4k5Hz would be OK but perhaps a little lower would be good, or a smaller mid. After all, the beauty of a 3 way is getting these matched well while covering a wide band.
What size is the woofer of the 220? I may have seen 5"? 4k5Hz would be OK but perhaps a little lower would be good, or a smaller mid. After all, the beauty of a 3 way is getting these matched well while covering a wide band.
The 220 woofer is the MW150, which Dynaudio claim to be 5.75in, though that's just the mounting ring, in reality the cone & surround itself is under 5 (more like ~4.7in)
Crossover frequencies I'd choose (with current drivers) would be:
Tweeter & Mid 3000hz @ X250 slopes, as I enjoy the current sound & the frequency response indicates the MW150 mid may limit going much higher(?)
Again looking at the frequency response, maybe 500hz for the Midbass & Mid @ 6db slopes?
Though i'd be ok anywhere between 400 to 900hz , whatever provides a better overall outcome in terms of driver matching.
Crossover frequencies I'd choose (with current drivers) would be:
Tweeter & Mid 3000hz @ X250 slopes, as I enjoy the current sound & the frequency response indicates the MW150 mid may limit going much higher(?)
Again looking at the frequency response, maybe 500hz for the Midbass & Mid @ 6db slopes?
Though i'd be ok anywhere between 400 to 900hz , whatever provides a better overall outcome in terms of driver matching.
Yes, I wouldn't want to go higher than 3k for the mid or you might sense the tweeter cuts in too heavy above the cross.. that's as long as the tweeter can handle that cross.
I guess the other cross is better down low to keep it away from the midrange region and make the specifics less sensitive. However higher may improve your overall power handling up to some point.
Also, crossing your mid near it's resonance would add the complication of the impedance peak.
I guess the other cross is better down low to keep it away from the midrange region and make the specifics less sensitive. However higher may improve your overall power handling up to some point.
Also, crossing your mid near it's resonance would add the complication of the impedance peak.
Ok, so what would be the next move for me to plan this 3 way circuit?
I'm assuming I would want to include the impedance corrections into it as well?
Would planning the crossover be aided in taking apart the X250 xover & take pics of the layout & values as a reference?
I'm assuming I would want to include the impedance corrections into it as well?
Would planning the crossover be aided in taking apart the X250 xover & take pics of the layout & values as a reference?
Sorry, what's the X250? Is it the 3kHz crossover that comes standard with the mid and tweeter you plan to use. Just use it. The options are self explanatory.
What will you do if you find out the sensitivity is not right with your 8"?
Decide on a lower crossover frequency. Decide whether impedance compensation will be necessary, consider 2nd order for this.
Do you have parts for the lower cross?
What will you do if you find out the sensitivity is not right with your 8"?
Decide on a lower crossover frequency. Decide whether impedance compensation will be necessary, consider 2nd order for this.
Do you have parts for the lower cross?
"Sorry, what's the X250? Is it the 3kHz crossover that comes standard with the mid and tweeter you plan to use. Just use it. The options are self explanatory"
Yes it's the current crossover for the MW100 tweet & MW150 woofer. You are saying that I can effectively use it & add the 8in MW170 2 way crossover as an additional circuit upstream?
"What will you do if you find out the sensitivity is not right with your 8"?"
According to the old Dynaudio spec & info PDF I have the 8" MW170 & 5.75" MW150 were both options for the X250 crossover (see pic). I'm assuming that might indicate similar sensitivity? I can't find driver sensitivity specs anywhere else.
(This PDF has the crossovers listed @ 2800hz but the X250 cover IRL shows 3000hz FYI)
Other than that, I'm not sure what options there are. Maybe if things are whacky with 8" response t might be best to start fresh & design a 3 way circuit with attenuation filtering where needed? The X250 comes with tweeter +-2db path attenuation options, & the X360 has both mid & tweet +-2db options on the crossover, so I'm guessing some form of circuit attenuation design can provide a reasonable amount of minor flexibility.
"Decide on a lower crossover frequency. Decide whether impedance compensation will be necessary, consider 2nd order for this."
These are the types of questions I was hoping to get some clarity & assistance with. I'm happy with a 500hz crossover, but was also considering a 800hz point originally. Given the frequency response graphs & related info, would 500hz a good choice?
Happy to incorporate the impedance correction if it helps / is needed.
What are the benefits of running the 2nd order on the woofer/mid crossover? I was happy to keep it simple(r) with a 1st order but again, I am ok to change the plan for the better outcome with what I have.
"Do you have parts for the lower cross?"
No, I stopped short of purchasing anything before asking here, based on limited understanding & tons of assumptions.
Appreciate your time.
Yes it's the current crossover for the MW100 tweet & MW150 woofer. You are saying that I can effectively use it & add the 8in MW170 2 way crossover as an additional circuit upstream?
"What will you do if you find out the sensitivity is not right with your 8"?"
According to the old Dynaudio spec & info PDF I have the 8" MW170 & 5.75" MW150 were both options for the X250 crossover (see pic). I'm assuming that might indicate similar sensitivity? I can't find driver sensitivity specs anywhere else.
(This PDF has the crossovers listed @ 2800hz but the X250 cover IRL shows 3000hz FYI)
Other than that, I'm not sure what options there are. Maybe if things are whacky with 8" response t might be best to start fresh & design a 3 way circuit with attenuation filtering where needed? The X250 comes with tweeter +-2db path attenuation options, & the X360 has both mid & tweet +-2db options on the crossover, so I'm guessing some form of circuit attenuation design can provide a reasonable amount of minor flexibility.
"Decide on a lower crossover frequency. Decide whether impedance compensation will be necessary, consider 2nd order for this."
These are the types of questions I was hoping to get some clarity & assistance with. I'm happy with a 500hz crossover, but was also considering a 800hz point originally. Given the frequency response graphs & related info, would 500hz a good choice?
Happy to incorporate the impedance correction if it helps / is needed.
What are the benefits of running the 2nd order on the woofer/mid crossover? I was happy to keep it simple(r) with a 1st order but again, I am ok to change the plan for the better outcome with what I have.
"Do you have parts for the lower cross?"
No, I stopped short of purchasing anything before asking here, based on limited understanding & tons of assumptions.
Appreciate your time.
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