Sounds like you've been having fun. For future reference you should be able to pause your AV.
I'm fed up of the diyaudio writting interface that erase and lost the text when you spent more than 2 minutes from writting a mail...
So past & copy as I placed it in the core of your quoting :
Yup, should be named a Bardones though not to mistake it with the saxhorns like french baryton and the others barython instruments mixing horn & brass and wood.
I particulary like those registers - I'm more a cello fan than a violin one.
All the mandolin shapes sounds good to me as the Oudh for example whatever olo, traditional, or in rock. Haydn, yes I' fan and have chosed conductings about him corpus.
In that baryton tone and also stringed instruments works and also sota live reccordings : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKN6AawEgBQ There is a Live double CD that is just a marvel !
Robert Plant has a better and better singin art though lost trebles climbing. Add an Oudh and bingo : Robert Plant - Carry Fire (Live) - YouTube
lthough it's seems played with a guitar it's clearly Oudh tones and I bet in the reccording it's a true Oudh as he knows a bunch of good musicians in Maroco and in it's world area where he lives.
🙂
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I think I need at least an 8 inch woofer in place of the MW16. I read that SB will eventually have 13, 19 and WO24 TexTreme drivers in the future. I could go with the current MW19 white cone Satori; or even the Mark Audio Alpair 12PW. Again; everything on temporary pause. With the MW19 HP at 250 Hz 2nd order; it still has some power handling issues so 8 inch will be best here I'm now thinking. New solder station on order now; more later...
I meant the MW16 still has power handling issues (not MW19)...allergy pill brain haze! ha ha ha...
Next idea: Wavecor vs Satori.. (8 3/4 inch vs 7 1/2 inch)
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/pdf/MW19PNW-4.pdf
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/298-1212-1214--wavecor-wf223bd01-02-specifications.pdf
I would want the 4 Ohm version in either case; the white cone Satori has a lighter moving mass than it's gray cone siblings so I prefer that.
The question is max power handling. The Wavecor says 150 W continuous, the Satori says 70 W. Both are showing per IEC 268-5. BUT, look at the voice coils and X max; VERY SIMILAR! I would like to buy just one Wavecor and try it. I talked to PE; they have a 60 day return policy so no problem as long as I don't solder it or scratch it or damage it in any way. BUT; they won't be in stock for at least 6 more weeks. My Daughter has a good chance of starting a new job soon so that would help free up some money. I am tempted to buy one from Solen; the price and shipping are higher but not by a huge amount.
I did a couple of sims; if you assume the Satori can take 140 W and the Wavecor can take 150 W; there is only 1 or 2 dB difference in them at max output where the thermal limit is reached. If the Wavecor can really take 150 W and the Satori can only take 70 W; no contest; I choose the Wavecor. My goal after all from the very beginning was more SPL in the bass region.
CAN ANYONE ENLIGHTEN ME ON THESE POWER SPECS?????
Has anyone tried either of these drivers? The Wavecor has good reviews; I already know how good the Satoris are...
These would both be in a closed box with a 1st or 2nd order HP at 200 Hz or above; it is more of a thermal max question as opposed to a max excursion question in my particular case.
Again, third party testing here would be VERY beneficial!
The Wavecor has a much larger Sd than the Satori; 213 cm^2 vs 158 cm^2. All else being equal; that would have me choose the Wavecor over the Satori. The pricing between these is not much different so that is a non issue; (my goal was no more than $200 US per driver).
It's interesting to compare the Qms and Mms of these; huge differences here!
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/pdf/MW19PNW-4.pdf
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/298-1212-1214--wavecor-wf223bd01-02-specifications.pdf
I would want the 4 Ohm version in either case; the white cone Satori has a lighter moving mass than it's gray cone siblings so I prefer that.
The question is max power handling. The Wavecor says 150 W continuous, the Satori says 70 W. Both are showing per IEC 268-5. BUT, look at the voice coils and X max; VERY SIMILAR! I would like to buy just one Wavecor and try it. I talked to PE; they have a 60 day return policy so no problem as long as I don't solder it or scratch it or damage it in any way. BUT; they won't be in stock for at least 6 more weeks. My Daughter has a good chance of starting a new job soon so that would help free up some money. I am tempted to buy one from Solen; the price and shipping are higher but not by a huge amount.
I did a couple of sims; if you assume the Satori can take 140 W and the Wavecor can take 150 W; there is only 1 or 2 dB difference in them at max output where the thermal limit is reached. If the Wavecor can really take 150 W and the Satori can only take 70 W; no contest; I choose the Wavecor. My goal after all from the very beginning was more SPL in the bass region.
CAN ANYONE ENLIGHTEN ME ON THESE POWER SPECS?????
Has anyone tried either of these drivers? The Wavecor has good reviews; I already know how good the Satoris are...
These would both be in a closed box with a 1st or 2nd order HP at 200 Hz or above; it is more of a thermal max question as opposed to a max excursion question in my particular case.
Again, third party testing here would be VERY beneficial!
The Wavecor has a much larger Sd than the Satori; 213 cm^2 vs 158 cm^2. All else being equal; that would have me choose the Wavecor over the Satori. The pricing between these is not much different so that is a non issue; (my goal was no more than $200 US per driver).
It's interesting to compare the Qms and Mms of these; huge differences here!
Just ordered one piece only of the Wavecor WF223BD01. I have had a few discussions with others elsewhere and most felt this would be a better choice for what my design goals are vs the Satori MW19...
I can always send it back if it doesn't perform or sound like I expect it to.
I will put it in a closed box; it will replace my MW16 for use from about 200 to 700 Hz or so. I may be able to use a 1st order on the HP; the MW16 needed a 2nd order here and even then it couldn't take full power which is the reason I'm moving up in driver size for the "upper woofer".
I have enough basic power and hand tools now to do a simple box. I am using MDF "shelf board" that comes in the width I need. That way; I don't have to fool around with a large 4 ft X 8 ft sheet. I don't have the room to handle anything that large and no longer have easy access to a pick up truck or large van for hauling such large pieces around.
Eventually I will get one more amplifier for the upper woofer. That way I'll have each driver with it's own, individual power amp with individual gain controls. Still all passive though except the sub plate amp. Again; maybe next year I can go all active!??
I can always send it back if it doesn't perform or sound like I expect it to.
I will put it in a closed box; it will replace my MW16 for use from about 200 to 700 Hz or so. I may be able to use a 1st order on the HP; the MW16 needed a 2nd order here and even then it couldn't take full power which is the reason I'm moving up in driver size for the "upper woofer".
I have enough basic power and hand tools now to do a simple box. I am using MDF "shelf board" that comes in the width I need. That way; I don't have to fool around with a large 4 ft X 8 ft sheet. I don't have the room to handle anything that large and no longer have easy access to a pick up truck or large van for hauling such large pieces around.
Eventually I will get one more amplifier for the upper woofer. That way I'll have each driver with it's own, individual power amp with individual gain controls. Still all passive though except the sub plate amp. Again; maybe next year I can go all active!??
The new Wavecor WF223BD01 should be here today or tomorrow. I built a test box. I will attempt to post a few photos. It's a closed box; regular rectangular shape but I put in one internal brace at an angle to help break up standing waves as well as give extra stiffness. I also ordered Styrofoam cones and spheres I can use to further reduce standing waves (if need be). The idea is to "disrupt" parallel wall surfaces with irregular shapes. I can cut these easily and try temporary placement before I would glue them in permanently. I glued hybrid/synthetic/felt dampening material to the walls. I will stuff the rear chamber and use one of my large pyramid foam blocks inside the woofer chamber as before with the SB29.
Attachments
Just received one piece only of the Wavecor WF223BD01 (8 3/4 in. 4 Ohm woofer). I have it playing all by itself at the moment. I still think the Satori MW or MR 16 are the ones to beat for musical realism BUT; they just can't take the kind of power I want to use. I think two each MR or MW 16 Satori 6 inch, 8 Ohm in parallel would be my absolute best answer but; that is getting too expensive. Maybe the new TexTreme MW19 will be released soon; that might be the best of all worlds for my needs and requirements!??? Of course; the Wavecor needs some break-in time so too early to tell if I can live with it or try something else. That is why I only bought one piece to start with!
More later...
More later...
OK, breaking in quicker than I thought! I added some capacitors to the HP; big improvement! I have now decided that I need more Crown amplifiers; as cheap as these are; they are hard to beat! Anything by NAD, Marantz, Yamaha, etc. in the under $1000 US can't even come close to the sound quality of the Crown as far as I am concerned. These are marketed as PA amplifiers; well, that may be but the class A/B here is damn near pure magic in this price range for sure!
Anyone that doesn't believe that capacitors, inductors, even resistors, wire and cable sound different hasn't gone to the great lengths that I have in experimenting. Plain and simple; there IS a difference! Sometimes the difference is amazing; say what you want; I'll stick by this until the end of time!
I'm not going to share the values, brands, series just yet since I'm still tweaking and playing around.
And then, of course; for those of you out there that insist on measurements; they will be made "eventually". I can tell enough major differences in selecting drivers and X/O components just by my perceived sound quality what works best. I do trust my own two ears; final tuning WILL make use of in room measurements; some day!!!...
Anyone that doesn't believe that capacitors, inductors, even resistors, wire and cable sound different hasn't gone to the great lengths that I have in experimenting. Plain and simple; there IS a difference! Sometimes the difference is amazing; say what you want; I'll stick by this until the end of time!
I'm not going to share the values, brands, series just yet since I'm still tweaking and playing around.
And then, of course; for those of you out there that insist on measurements; they will be made "eventually". I can tell enough major differences in selecting drivers and X/O components just by my perceived sound quality what works best. I do trust my own two ears; final tuning WILL make use of in room measurements; some day!!!...
I now have a Satori MW16 in it's normal closed box on one channel of the Crown amp and the new WF223BD in it's closed test box on the other channel. (Unfortunately, I have no QUICK or easy way of going monoral so this is still stereo). The Satori has more ambiance retrieval of things like low level hall reverb, etc. The Wavecor sounds a little more believable with hard piano key "strikes". The Satori has slightly better "treble" and the Wavecor easily has more and better "bass". These differences are actually not that great. I have the crossovers set for each driver as close as possible without measuring to confirm. The Wavecor seems to be about 2 dB more sensitive but that could just be the level controls on the amp not being "calibrated". I would have to do voltage measurements to be more precise here.
Overall; I would still give the Satori the edge for being more musically realistic but only by a small margin. The Wavecor has less than 4 hours on it while the Satori has been in almost constant use for about a year so break-in could be still a significant factor here. The Wavecor can certainly take a lot more power than the Satori so my goal of more bass SPL (WITH low distortion obviously) in the region of 200 to 800 Hz is now being meet.
I have two CD recordings of classical piano I am very familiar with:
Ronald Brautigam fortepiano Beethoven Hammerklavier Sonatas Opus 81a, 90 and 106. This is a hybrid SACD but I don't yet have a SACD player (on the wishlist). BIS label 1612.
And Marc-Andre' Hamelin Franz List Hyperion label CDA67760
Both are very well recorded; very nice and believable High Fidelity considering the limits in my present playback and electronic equipment.
I'm hoping the Wavecor suspension will loosen up more with time and sound better and better. I can certainly live with this at least for the near term future. I am still anxiously awaiting the new SB Satori TexTreme drivers; especially a MW19 and WO24 or similar sizes. To my knowledge; the TexTreme MW16's aren't even in stock yet (delays due to COVID I have read elsewhere).
Overall; I would still give the Satori the edge for being more musically realistic but only by a small margin. The Wavecor has less than 4 hours on it while the Satori has been in almost constant use for about a year so break-in could be still a significant factor here. The Wavecor can certainly take a lot more power than the Satori so my goal of more bass SPL (WITH low distortion obviously) in the region of 200 to 800 Hz is now being meet.
I have two CD recordings of classical piano I am very familiar with:
Ronald Brautigam fortepiano Beethoven Hammerklavier Sonatas Opus 81a, 90 and 106. This is a hybrid SACD but I don't yet have a SACD player (on the wishlist). BIS label 1612.
And Marc-Andre' Hamelin Franz List Hyperion label CDA67760
Both are very well recorded; very nice and believable High Fidelity considering the limits in my present playback and electronic equipment.
I'm hoping the Wavecor suspension will loosen up more with time and sound better and better. I can certainly live with this at least for the near term future. I am still anxiously awaiting the new SB Satori TexTreme drivers; especially a MW19 and WO24 or similar sizes. To my knowledge; the TexTreme MW16's aren't even in stock yet (delays due to COVID I have read elsewhere).
The Wavecor can play louder and lower and with less distortion than the Satori even with the Satori having a 2nd order HP and the Wavecor JUST having a 1st order HP. THIS is what I wanted; now if the Wavecor loosens up more and starts to sound more and more like music and less and less like a speaker; we will have arrived at the "desired destination"! I would really like to try the Mark Audio A12PW but I don't think it could take as much power or play as loud as the Wavecor. If I decide the Wavecor just isn't musical enough; the A12PW is next on my list of drivers to try out.
Alpair 12PW | Markaudio
Alpair 12PW | Markaudio
I just experimented with placing resistors in parallel across the Wavecor LP inductor. 38 Ohms seems about right here; more resistance is too dull and less resistance is too bright. This wakes up the mid and upper bass "just enough" to make it sound much more musically realistic. I have on the CD player bass artist Brian Bromberg "Wood". Not only the bass but also the piano is very well recorded; plenty of richness and naturalness in the harmonics, overtones, etc. which is what separates great from just merely good.
YES! This is REALLY close to about as perfect as I think I am going to get without spending tons more money. I think this is finally the answer to my wants, needs and desires for truth in musical reproduction! Thanks to those here and elsewhere for the encouragement and hints, info, etc.!
Now, I just have to finish everything up; I may not even need another amplifier right away but that will be my next purchase other than the last few parts I need for the final.
Now, I just have to finish everything up; I may not even need another amplifier right away but that will be my next purchase other than the last few parts I need for the final.
I'm playing with the parallel resistor on the Wavecor LP inductor. On some violin music; 50 Ohms seems to be about right. Anything much smaller in resistance lets in too much higher treble which is harsh and grainy. So, here we go again, trying to get that perfect balance of just enough but not too little or not too much...the Goldilocks magic region. I have a few resistors on order to fine tune this even more. This is when I depend on my trained musician ears before I turn to my engineering and technician self to make measurements. In this case; the differences are obvious to me; maybe not so much to others. Things like this are hard to measure accurately with home based equipment, tools, software, etc. because it is very subtle frequency or amplitude changes being made here; more of an acquired gift or talent kind of a thing; subjective like art, etc.
Still playing with crossover fine tuning. I still prefer the Satori to the Wavecor; it just has more low level detail and is more musical. I can be happy with the Wavecor for now but once the Satori TexTreme MW19 becomes available; I think I have no choice but to try it. I'm sure the initial price will be ridiculous; I'm guessing $250 to $300 US each.
I have tried every trick in my book and just cannot get the Wavecor to sound as good as the Satori. Many people could be perfectly satisfied with the Wavecor I'm sure. It does many things well. It does play lower and louder and with less distortion than my Satori but it is a larger driver so physics says this is to be expected (all else being equal of course).
I will keep the Wavecor (I still only have one piece); I can try it as a sub-woofer for an office size system in the mono mode; I'm sure it well do very well at that.
I have tried every trick in my book and just cannot get the Wavecor to sound as good as the Satori. Many people could be perfectly satisfied with the Wavecor I'm sure. It does many things well. It does play lower and louder and with less distortion than my Satori but it is a larger driver so physics says this is to be expected (all else being equal of course).
I will keep the Wavecor (I still only have one piece); I can try it as a sub-woofer for an office size system in the mono mode; I'm sure it well do very well at that.
Until the new Satori TexTreme MW19's come out; I think I might retire the Wavecor or use it elsewhere. I have a slightly newer idea to use my Satori MW16's (closed box) but on the Yamaha amp by themselves and at a higher 2nd order HP X/O. I would put the P7P's on the Dayton amp. by themselves. (The Fostex ST's will be on the NAD by themselves and the SB29's on the Crown by themselves). This may require me to raise the LP on the SB29's slightly (TBD)...
Not the best set up but I need to experiment with this idea at least. Ultimately, it is looking more and more like the TexTreme MW19 and another Crown amp. may be my next big purchases. This will have to wait though as I am still helping to support others...The nice thing about being retired is I have all the time in the world to keep experimenting and changing things around. Honestly, I may never be COMPLETELY satisfied and will probably always be looking for improvements as long as I am able!
Not the best set up but I need to experiment with this idea at least. Ultimately, it is looking more and more like the TexTreme MW19 and another Crown amp. may be my next big purchases. This will have to wait though as I am still helping to support others...The nice thing about being retired is I have all the time in the world to keep experimenting and changing things around. Honestly, I may never be COMPLETELY satisfied and will probably always be looking for improvements as long as I am able!
It's a new day so time to try something new now. I have a 3rd order HP on the Satori MW16; -3 dB about 200 Hz and a 1st order LP about 2000 Hz. Compared to the Wavecor; the Satori is more up front and honest without "being in your face". The Wavecor sounds more "hollow", "distant", "nasally"; less refined. It is not congested or harsh by any means; just overall less musical.
I raised the LP 1st order on the SB 29; still playing with values here.
I guess I now MUST start some measurements so I need to break the microphone out and learn to use REW. Because the SB29 LP is 1st order and the MW16 HP is 3rd order; there may be a null or cancellation due to an out of phase condition. Of course; they are on different amplifiers so that could make for another phase anomaly???
Here we go again; I call this my mad scientist mode (yes; others before me have also used this term but it is appropriate don't you think???)...
I raised the LP 1st order on the SB 29; still playing with values here.
I guess I now MUST start some measurements so I need to break the microphone out and learn to use REW. Because the SB29 LP is 1st order and the MW16 HP is 3rd order; there may be a null or cancellation due to an out of phase condition. Of course; they are on different amplifiers so that could make for another phase anomaly???
Here we go again; I call this my mad scientist mode (yes; others before me have also used this term but it is appropriate don't you think???)...
Well, that didn't take long. That above configuration just isn't very good at all musically. Now I am trying 1st order HP on the MW16 (connected to Yamaha) at about 250 Hz and 1st order LP on the SB29 (connected to Crown) also at about 250 Hz. Certainly way more real and musical. Once I know for sure the neighbors are up; I'll gradually crank up the volume and see how well the MW16 does here. The Crown amp makes the MW16 really sound wonderful but in order to use it and the SB29 both on the same amp; it just can't take the extra power. So; I guess the next thing to buy is another Crown amp. I would use it for the MW16's and if still not happy; the MW19 TexTreme...again, all in the future...I will see how well the MW16 does with 1st order at 250 Hz once the Yamaha gets cranking...
Round and round she goes; where she stops; nobody knows! ha ha ha...If I play the SB29 and the Wavecor WF223BD and the MW16 and the P7P and the T90A ALL; I get great results! Well, gimmie a break already; I'm not going to do a 5-way with sub; that borders on ridiculous! (I don't have the space for that many stereo pair boxes anyway) If I had only known about the Vifa/Tymphany/Peerless NE265 at the beginning; I could probably have just had that plus the Pluvia and Fostex, easy peasy 3-way with sub. I don't want to give up the SB29's though, they do GREAT bass from about 40 to 160 Hz; better than almost anything else out there. So; I'm REALLY hoping the TexTreme MW19 comes out soon, gets great reviews and then price drop! (asking too much?; it doesn't hurt to dream). Again; if money were no object; I could have gone for the Audio Technology 10 inch from the very beginning
Sandwich cone
ALMOST $700 per each US, totally out of my budget!!!
Sandwich cone
ALMOST $700 per each US, totally out of my budget!!!