Depends on who you ask, but in my time WRT antennas, audio speakers, I choose WG = no compression, horn = compression beyond a WG's polar compression, so with both having slightly curved flares I consider them technically horns, but would need polars to see how much and if one was superior to the other.
My 'gripe' is with their termination, both will ideally need a Dr. Geddes' open cell foam plug or terminus extension to damp its eigenmodes that will otherwise reflect back to the throat, comb filtering with its output.
Thank you.
My limited understanding of horns is that they not only distribute the sound waves but also increase the efficiency of a driver by having a throat smaller in size than the driver's diaphragm. Compression seems to be a function of the driver since the diaphragms are generally larger than the drivers' openings.
Are there waveguide drivers that do not function as compression drivers?
My limited understanding of horns is that they not only distribute the sound waves but also increase the efficiency of a driver by having a throat smaller in size than the driver's diaphragm. Compression seems to be a function of the driver since the diaphragms are generally larger than the drivers' openings.
Are there waveguide drivers that do not function as compression drivers?
Last edited:
There is a thread on Lansing Forum that compares JBL 2332 horn and PT-F95HF waveguide that are exactly the same size and perfectly compatible, so you can check this thread yourself. you will see that both are the same efficiency. As I said earlier, the reason why JBL stopped calling it a horn and started using the word PT WAVEGUIDE simply appeals the design that emphasizes directivity, and there is no essential difference between the two. It's basically a marketing term, not a purely technical one, as far as I understand.
https://www.audioheritage.org/vbull...PT-F95HF-a-meaningful-sonic-upgrade-from-2332
PS: I think PT-F95HF is a popular waveguide for Econowave.
https://www.audioheritage.org/vbull...PT-F95HF-a-meaningful-sonic-upgrade-from-2332
PS: I think PT-F95HF is a popular waveguide for Econowave.
Wayne Parham of Pi Speakers has several speakers similar to econowaves and the offerings of the diyaudiogroup. He'll give you the plans for free if you ask on his forum and tends to have parts in stock. You can build them without buying anything from him except the waveguide (as the crossover is designed for that waveguide). There are also full kits that have everything but the box. He also sells completely finished speakers.
There was talk a while back he'd have knock down cabinets but I'm not certain if that happened.
It's worth looking at his website as he has a lot of technical papers about speaker building and crossovers.
There was talk a while back he'd have knock down cabinets but I'm not certain if that happened.
It's worth looking at his website as he has a lot of technical papers about speaker building and crossovers.
Sure, place a dome tweeter in a waveguide and you get the restriction of dispersion without a driver which uses a compression chamber to increase efficiency. The latter is, if you do not belong to the Home Cinema crowd, mostly unnecessary for most HiFi listening anyway. At least in my European city apartment, I rarely listen at such levels that I would need this.
But then, there is also no reason why you would not want to go with the designs that rely on a compression driver. Zilch was on a different team: he admired the work of Earl Geddes (you will see when you read through his Tech Talk thread), but he considered an easy to build, good enough DiY speaker that anyone could assemble with the help of a pre-build enclosure flat pack an achievement already. Something where people could enjoy very good, albeit not perfect sound reproduction from was his aim. And I think this is a nice idea.
The price of this approach was a big, PA sized box, to control directivity down low (utilizing the early beaming of a 12-inch midwoofer,) and being restricted by the easy to get, easy to apply commercial PA waveguides. I would personally suggest a wider horizontal pattern than 90 degrees, the result of this being a rather small and focused sweet spot that additionally comes with a weird shifting behavior when one turns his head at the listening position.
A small excursion: As Geddes put it once, there might be two worlds of audio reproduction: one belonging to the flush mounted tweeter no waveguide speakers, which create a wide but somewhat occluded stage, that delivers spaciousness but diminishes image quality, and another, which he heralded, tightly controlled directivity that create a very precise reproduction of the source material, which however comes without the pleasures of the illusion that one would sit in a live venue. This illusion is created by early reflections in the listening room, that are external to the recording and hence somehow "grade" it.
My suggestion to the OP is the following: If you do have enough estate, and you want to listen to music, just build them f-in speakers. I am still listening to a speaker using the Dayton clone of the JBL PTH waveguide. It sounds great. But I used an active amplification and DSP and I must say that tinkering the frequency response to taste was what made it really enjoyable. For this, however, it is enough to get as a source that enables further equalization, because the directivity will be ”good enough”. For example, if you would buy a RaspberryPi and a HifiBerry hat with RCA outs, install Camilla DSP on top, you should be able to do the necessary ”voicing” EQ on the basis of an already acceptable analogue crossover. And you could use almost any power amp. This speakers are incredibly efficient anyway. This is the quick way to good sound, in my opinion, and in the spirit of Zilch: use his design, allow yourself additional control over linear, frequency distortion, via the source, to make it very nice.
There is also other waveguide designs nowadays, like the Directiva over at ASR, that build on the same premise of a simple 2-way speaker which yet features a very good power response throughout the spectrum. A member here has also created some beautiful 2-way speakers, @Kwesi, which in a way build on the same understanding if Zilch’s, but in a much smaller package. Here, the limit will always be distortion, and I only found out lately how low the listening levels (SPL) at my living room mostly are. This could actually turn out to be an issue only for certain people.
I would not suggest to do the same as I did: I am still sitting on preliminary designs of 120 degrees horizontal radiation pattern waveguides, have not bought a 3D printer yet, listening to my chipboard prototypes all the time, but at some point, will create the beautiful 10-inch 2-way that I was fantasizing about for YEARS. Pandemia is ”over,” job takes its toll, I am back to my other projects in visual arts, the optimized speaker is waiting for completion.
Why not build the Zilch speaker, but think how to apply some PEQs and equalization to it, after you followed the analogue part of the build? This is my suggestion for a 2023 Econowave. Go hybrid.
But then, there is also no reason why you would not want to go with the designs that rely on a compression driver. Zilch was on a different team: he admired the work of Earl Geddes (you will see when you read through his Tech Talk thread), but he considered an easy to build, good enough DiY speaker that anyone could assemble with the help of a pre-build enclosure flat pack an achievement already. Something where people could enjoy very good, albeit not perfect sound reproduction from was his aim. And I think this is a nice idea.
The price of this approach was a big, PA sized box, to control directivity down low (utilizing the early beaming of a 12-inch midwoofer,) and being restricted by the easy to get, easy to apply commercial PA waveguides. I would personally suggest a wider horizontal pattern than 90 degrees, the result of this being a rather small and focused sweet spot that additionally comes with a weird shifting behavior when one turns his head at the listening position.
A small excursion: As Geddes put it once, there might be two worlds of audio reproduction: one belonging to the flush mounted tweeter no waveguide speakers, which create a wide but somewhat occluded stage, that delivers spaciousness but diminishes image quality, and another, which he heralded, tightly controlled directivity that create a very precise reproduction of the source material, which however comes without the pleasures of the illusion that one would sit in a live venue. This illusion is created by early reflections in the listening room, that are external to the recording and hence somehow "grade" it.
My suggestion to the OP is the following: If you do have enough estate, and you want to listen to music, just build them f-in speakers. I am still listening to a speaker using the Dayton clone of the JBL PTH waveguide. It sounds great. But I used an active amplification and DSP and I must say that tinkering the frequency response to taste was what made it really enjoyable. For this, however, it is enough to get as a source that enables further equalization, because the directivity will be ”good enough”. For example, if you would buy a RaspberryPi and a HifiBerry hat with RCA outs, install Camilla DSP on top, you should be able to do the necessary ”voicing” EQ on the basis of an already acceptable analogue crossover. And you could use almost any power amp. This speakers are incredibly efficient anyway. This is the quick way to good sound, in my opinion, and in the spirit of Zilch: use his design, allow yourself additional control over linear, frequency distortion, via the source, to make it very nice.
There is also other waveguide designs nowadays, like the Directiva over at ASR, that build on the same premise of a simple 2-way speaker which yet features a very good power response throughout the spectrum. A member here has also created some beautiful 2-way speakers, @Kwesi, which in a way build on the same understanding if Zilch’s, but in a much smaller package. Here, the limit will always be distortion, and I only found out lately how low the listening levels (SPL) at my living room mostly are. This could actually turn out to be an issue only for certain people.
I would not suggest to do the same as I did: I am still sitting on preliminary designs of 120 degrees horizontal radiation pattern waveguides, have not bought a 3D printer yet, listening to my chipboard prototypes all the time, but at some point, will create the beautiful 10-inch 2-way that I was fantasizing about for YEARS. Pandemia is ”over,” job takes its toll, I am back to my other projects in visual arts, the optimized speaker is waiting for completion.
Why not build the Zilch speaker, but think how to apply some PEQs and equalization to it, after you followed the analogue part of the build? This is my suggestion for a 2023 Econowave. Go hybrid.
Last edited:
If you can get your hands on the QSC/B-52 horns - do it, they sound fantastic. I run them with a Faital HF10AK which matches the throat just about perfectly.
A design suggestion I can make is to build a wide baffle with large side bevels or roundovers. Mine are 24" wide and have a 4" bevel at 45 degrees. You get lower-reaching baffle step reinforcement and also better directivity control of both the horn and the woofer at the crossover. One strength of the QSC waveguide is that it is properly terminated (to a flat baffle) and the bevel on the cabinet becomes the other half of the termination.
A design suggestion I can make is to build a wide baffle with large side bevels or roundovers. Mine are 24" wide and have a 4" bevel at 45 degrees. You get lower-reaching baffle step reinforcement and also better directivity control of both the horn and the woofer at the crossover. One strength of the QSC waveguide is that it is properly terminated (to a flat baffle) and the bevel on the cabinet becomes the other half of the termination.
Dome tweeters absolutely can be used in waveguides, but the waveguides need to be designed to work with the domes which most are not. Dome tweeters are all different sizes and the size must be quite an accurate fit to avoid problems.
Sound Imports has a good guide on waveguides and dome tweeters that fit off the shelf
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/blogs/blog/wave-guiding-your-favorite-tweeter/
These are all much smaller than would ideally fit with a 12" woofer.
Amazing waveguides can be made for dome tweeters here is an example of mabat's Tritonia with an SB26 ADC driver simulated.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-design-the-easy-way-ath4.338806/post-6927296
But unless you can make it yourself there are not so many good options for domes. All domes are not equal either and the profile of the dome has a significant effect on whether it will work in a waveguide.
Earl Geddes can clear that up, he first used the term in his 1991 AES paper
http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/What is a Waveguide.pdf
Oh nice! I gotta nail down some things and get wife approval, but it's good to know they're potentially available. I'll let you know
That looks great, but 15 is too big. The L speaker is in a fairly tight corner
I've seen those, but want something narrower and deeper.
😎
Do you know off hand which project? I couldn't find it.
I don't want to run active at the moment, but would be interested in playing with that in the future!
As noted above, I need something narrower and deeper.
Thanks for all the advice above everyone! I want something fairly narrow (14"-17" max), and want to put the waveguide/cd on top (outside the box). Purely asthetic, but I feel like a waveguide/cd mounted in the box looks like a PA speaker (... it is!) but outside the box looks like high end audiophile stuff 😏 Ideally it would run deep enough that I wouldn't need a subwoofer, and I could add one later. My old subwoofer (4' high sonotube) got WAF'd out. I want a large "sweet spot", and although I don't need/plan on running high SPL, I feel like headroom is a decent approach to reducing distortion.
I do have a couple questions:
1. Are crossovers specific to the compression driver, or the waveguide/compression driver combo? IE can I take a known crossover design and switch out the waveguide?
2. My room has very little treatment, and one speaker is in a corner. Is this a good approach, or do I have it backwards?
3. Do the plans/parts for Jeff Bagby's Definimax-12/SEOS Econowave still exist?
Thanks again!
4. Are there any compression drivers I should consider that are better than the DE250? Any advancements in the past 12 years?
I'm leaning towards the Econowave Deluxe, unless someone has a compelling preference for a different version
I'm leaning towards the Econowave Deluxe, unless someone has a compelling preference for a different version
Last edited:
1. Combo, so depends.
2. You'll either need significant frequency shaping (acoustic and/or digital) on one speaker or the other due to all the extra room/corner gain of one.
3. No clue, links are dead and not on the Net Archive.
You're welcome!
Change the shape of the enclosure. You need to angle WG'd speakers heavily toward the LP so make them more triangular in CSA.
Klipschorns are larger than almost all speakers but because of their shape they really take up little floor space, much less than a narrow tower well away from walls.
Good suggestions what driver to use with Dayton H6512? Easy to crossover around 1.5k or lower with 10" woofer and as cheap as possible.
@Qts I used the D220ti for an LCR set (SR Compact). Having lived with them for a few months the D220ti's aren't bad but you want to bail out early (over 9k does not sound pretty regardless of how it measures).
@GM I'm still new to Vituixcad and have been trying to run a few sims on an alternative crossover. A 4th order LR @1800hz on the PA-310 and D220ti looks promising (-6db lpad on the tweeter), but I am not sure of how to model the CD on the H6512 in the diffraction window. Do you have any experience with this?
Any help is greatly appreciated!
@GM I'm still new to Vituixcad and have been trying to run a few sims on an alternative crossover. A 4th order LR @1800hz on the PA-310 and D220ti looks promising (-6db lpad on the tweeter), but I am not sure of how to model the CD on the H6512 in the diffraction window. Do you have any experience with this?
Any help is greatly appreciated!
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/hf-driver/1-0/8/de502-8
https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/hf-driver/1-0/8/ND1070
DE250 is still a great driver for home use though.
Sorry, have yet to learn/use Vcad; wasn't aware it could sim CD horn combos since CD specs aren't usually published and historically a bit too hard for DIYers to accurately measure.
Joseph Crowe sells his horns as STL for 3D printing. I printed a pair od his ES800 horns and with a BC DE500, they were really nice. Now I am into larger wooden horns, but even a large horn can be 3D printed. ATH designs by Mabat are really nice (printed and tried some), however I cannot stand the looks of a round free standing horn (irrational, I know).
You cannot model a waveguide in the diffraction tool only a piston source in a baffle. Either real measurements or a BEM simulation is needed for the waveguide.
