Folding into a corner merely is a "cheat" for making an effectively larger mouth and improving the loading into the room volume - reasonable "cheats" but in my experience the results are entirely room dependent, and unpredictable.
Any room is somewhat different and unpredicatable, but corner loading is especially so.
I still say this horn is truncated, and effectively has no mouth... maybe that's ok given the limited range - about one octave - that seems to be of interest.
Sure, dependent to some extent... but corner loading is *highly* dependent upon the room, and really can't be overcome by means of EQ. At least that is my view.
Sorry, not sure what your saying in 4. Are you referring only to the TH design??
Gunnite anyone??
No!
The enclosure and room corner together form the bass horn. While the characterizations of "cheat" and "truncated" have the desired negative connotations, they remain acoustically irrelevant notions here.
For bass horns to function as such, they must be large. Such sizing is incompatible with sub-woofer sweet-spot placement in any room of acoustically small dimensions.
In the room in question the first eigenfrequency occurs at 29 Hz, followed by several others all of which will be excited by corner placement of any subwoofer, horned or not.
The particular room to be used here is not an unknown. It is fairly large for a domestic setting, all be it, a 20 ft. square. Never the less, it remains acoustically small when bass frequencies are considered. At 100 Hz, wavelength spans 11.3 ft.
For Room Mode Calculators see:
Spreadsheet
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurComp...ocuments/Calculators/Room Mode Calculator.xls
HTML & Detailed Description
Room modes calculator calculate 3 modes - rectangular room control room eigenmodes eigenfrequencies standing waves room acoustic node frequency - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
For an in-depth treatment of low frequency room acoustics and sub-woofer placement see article Volumes 1 through 5:
Product Articles
Below 29 Hz, there are no eigenmodes present for the room in question. Pressure fluctuation in this region is uniformly distributed throughout the room.
The bass horn enclosure recommended is an E.V. Pat. IV. This design belongs to PWK as interpreted by Carlson & Hoodwin.
Plan to do a swimming pool at the same time.
Then you can invite your neighbors for a swim and hand-out complementary ear plugs as well.
Regards,
WHG
The enclosure and room corner together form the bass horn. While the characterizations of "cheat" and "truncated" have the desired negative connotations, they remain acoustically irrelevant notions here.
For bass horns to function as such, they must be large. Such sizing is incompatible with sub-woofer sweet-spot placement in any room of acoustically small dimensions.
In the room in question the first eigenfrequency occurs at 29 Hz, followed by several others all of which will be excited by corner placement of any subwoofer, horned or not.
The particular room to be used here is not an unknown. It is fairly large for a domestic setting, all be it, a 20 ft. square. Never the less, it remains acoustically small when bass frequencies are considered. At 100 Hz, wavelength spans 11.3 ft.
For Room Mode Calculators see:
Spreadsheet
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurComp...ocuments/Calculators/Room Mode Calculator.xls
HTML & Detailed Description
Room modes calculator calculate 3 modes - rectangular room control room eigenmodes eigenfrequencies standing waves room acoustic node frequency - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
For an in-depth treatment of low frequency room acoustics and sub-woofer placement see article Volumes 1 through 5:
Product Articles
Below 29 Hz, there are no eigenmodes present for the room in question. Pressure fluctuation in this region is uniformly distributed throughout the room.
The bass horn enclosure recommended is an E.V. Pat. IV. This design belongs to PWK as interpreted by Carlson & Hoodwin.
Gunnite anyone??
Plan to do a swimming pool at the same time.
Then you can invite your neighbors for a swim and hand-out complementary ear plugs as well.
Regards,
WHG
Fwiw, the placement of a sub in a corner or on a room boundary is something that I prefer to avoid completely.
WRT the TH I was wondering aloud "why the small mouth"?? And, so, is this really a tapped "horn" or is it really a Tapped TL ??
Seems to my eyes more akin to a TL than a horn per se...
You have my advantage, sir, PWK? Carlson & Hoodwin?
I freely show my ignorance. No shame at all.
Oh, wait, Paul W Klipsh??
_-_-bear
WRT the TH I was wondering aloud "why the small mouth"?? And, so, is this really a tapped "horn" or is it really a Tapped TL ??
Seems to my eyes more akin to a TL than a horn per se...
You have my advantage, sir, PWK? Carlson & Hoodwin?
I freely show my ignorance. No shame at all.
Oh, wait, Paul W Klipsh??
_-_-bear
Have a look at the old articles in HFN&RR from the 60s, "Acoustic Compensation" by Rex Baldock and the Crabbe horn by John F Crabbe. They are time aligned, have good output to under 16Hz if you want it and in general the best bass solutions i have ever heard. I have built one and listened to a few and NOTHING comes even close! The only thing that comes remotely close is a well implemented IB but it takes alot of high quality drivers.
BR,
Anders
BR,
Anders
It's huge - it's essentially an IB, front horn loaded, since it takes up the entire wall, and is not going to be "time aligned" unless there is a digital delay involved.
The reason not to use the back wall for a built in horn is again the delay time for the LF energy... unless you use a digital delay of some sort.
Back to the klipshhorn, I have heard them with extremely strong bass in a narrow range, weak bass in the entire range, and almost no bass in any range - all due to the room layout and geometry, openings, etc... they seem unpredictable at best.
bappe, what is it? here in the US we don't have access to HFN&RR unless it is online somewhere??
_-_-bear
The reason not to use the back wall for a built in horn is again the delay time for the LF energy... unless you use a digital delay of some sort.
Back to the klipshhorn, I have heard them with extremely strong bass in a narrow range, weak bass in the entire range, and almost no bass in any range - all due to the room layout and geometry, openings, etc... they seem unpredictable at best.
bappe, what is it? here in the US we don't have access to HFN&RR unless it is online somewhere??
_-_-bear
I don't think bass horns do have any meaningful advantage in home setups.
What is important, is not to use just one source of bass, like a single woofer each side, since it can always be detected. The best is to have even distribution of the low frequencies in the room. that is achievable with multiple woofers. Great is a vertical line array on each corner of the room. If i had to start from scratch, i would employ a pair of Beyma 15" LX60 V2 in a vented cab on each side.
What is important, is not to use just one source of bass, like a single woofer each side, since it can always be detected. The best is to have even distribution of the low frequencies in the room. that is achievable with multiple woofers. Great is a vertical line array on each corner of the room. If i had to start from scratch, i would employ a pair of Beyma 15" LX60 V2 in a vented cab on each side.
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I do not agree with the above
A well made horn for the lowest octaves is one of the only ways to get a very even response all the way through the lowest range without having to resort to electrical eq. One will also get sensitivity and extension like nothing else. I have IB right now and it works very well but i will eventually get back to horns for sure. Below is one example where the horn is built in the basement and enters behind the listening sofa. This one is good for full output to around 18Hz.
BR,
Anders
I do not agree with the above
Anders
I was expecting to create controversy
....If a bass horn is what is needed to get extension in the lowest register, then prepare enough space to acomodate such a horn. In my view, nothing that a good sub woofer, well integrated, cannot provide....
One of the things i look for , is good transient response.
i don't need horn loading, to get this in the bass range.
Controversy
Gentlemen: In a most respectful manner I wish to throw my 2 cents in. Debate and controversy are alright if civil, yes?
In my opinion, the best/ easiest way to get very deep bass response is via
the infinite baffle approach. (it's what i use, so yes, I'm biased)
In addition to that, I think deep bass should be separated from mid and upper bass. Sub-bass duties from 60 and down. Mid & upper bass from 60 to
where ever one is comfortable with/ or limited to by the mid-range type.
I would applaud anyone trying to build a 20Hz bass horn in a home environment, but in my opinion it's a waste of effort and space. It simply has to be soooo big, that it's virtually impossible to blend in with the rest of the system.
Gentlemen: In a most respectful manner I wish to throw my 2 cents in. Debate and controversy are alright if civil, yes?
In my opinion, the best/ easiest way to get very deep bass response is via
the infinite baffle approach. (it's what i use, so yes, I'm biased)
In addition to that, I think deep bass should be separated from mid and upper bass. Sub-bass duties from 60 and down. Mid & upper bass from 60 to
where ever one is comfortable with/ or limited to by the mid-range type.
I would applaud anyone trying to build a 20Hz bass horn in a home environment, but in my opinion it's a waste of effort and space. It simply has to be soooo big, that it's virtually impossible to blend in with the rest of the system.
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