I have a dedicated room which is 6m x 6m, separate from the house so WAF isn't an issue. Horns are diy 3 way horn with Fane 8m in a Le Cleach 160hz horn, Yamaha 6681 in a Le Cleach horn and a RAAL ribbon supplementing the 10k upwards.
I need to work out a solution for 20 to 100hz, defiantly horn loaded, any ideas are appreciated.
So far considering tapped horns, a Le Cleach style horn stand or two big square horns hanging outside the room and entering thru the wall. Drivers are yet to be sourced but local availability would be advantageous.
I need to work out a solution for 20 to 100hz, defiantly horn loaded, any ideas are appreciated.
So far considering tapped horns, a Le Cleach style horn stand or two big square horns hanging outside the room and entering thru the wall. Drivers are yet to be sourced but local availability would be advantageous.
Vincent Brient, like this possibly 
http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/10834-you-want-audio-this-is-pretty-flippin-crazy/, but maybe not this crazy
http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/10834-you-want-audio-this-is-pretty-flippin-crazy/, but maybe not this crazy
run the numbers for the mouth size at 20Hz...
big.
but you will have room boost.
how to calculate? dunno.
Also it will be so large that it is unclear how to model it... will it "see" the floor and wall as part of the expansion? meaning the mouth can be a bit smaller...
Imo, unless you use digital correction to get the thing more or less free of delay WRT the mids, the subs will need to exit somewhere near your listening position...
That leaves only a few options in reality...
One of the best ones I have seen or found - seen in images on the web - is to build a platform in front of the listening position, about 14-16" high I would guess, and under where the rest of the horn system sits. The platform forms the bass horn, fully spanning the room left to right. the expansion is under the platform, drivers to the rear, in the corners mostly, for max length... the floor makes an image of the mouth, and you get a slightly small dimension that way, but make up for it in the horizontal expansion...
I just looked, don't seem to be finding the pix I saved of the two similar installations I saw...
Also, for 20-100Hz. I can not think of any reason to not fold the horn if that helps space wise...
_-_-bear
big.
but you will have room boost.
how to calculate? dunno.
Also it will be so large that it is unclear how to model it... will it "see" the floor and wall as part of the expansion? meaning the mouth can be a bit smaller...
Imo, unless you use digital correction to get the thing more or less free of delay WRT the mids, the subs will need to exit somewhere near your listening position...
That leaves only a few options in reality...
One of the best ones I have seen or found - seen in images on the web - is to build a platform in front of the listening position, about 14-16" high I would guess, and under where the rest of the horn system sits. The platform forms the bass horn, fully spanning the room left to right. the expansion is under the platform, drivers to the rear, in the corners mostly, for max length... the floor makes an image of the mouth, and you get a slightly small dimension that way, but make up for it in the horizontal expansion...
I just looked, don't seem to be finding the pix I saved of the two similar installations I saw...
Also, for 20-100Hz. I can not think of any reason to not fold the horn if that helps space wise...
_-_-bear
PWK's Solution
As output from the bass horn(s) will be appreciably below 200 Hz. a Klipsch Folded Corner Horn Design should suffice. If you want them big, the EV Patrician IV [1] design with 18" drivers, such as PD1850 [2], would provide an impressive performance within a reasonably sized footprint.
Regards,
WHG
[1a] http://electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?f=Patrician IV DIY Manual.pdf
[1b] http://electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?f=Patrician IV Assembly.pdf
[2] Precision Devices International Limited
As output from the bass horn(s) will be appreciably below 200 Hz. a Klipsch Folded Corner Horn Design should suffice. If you want them big, the EV Patrician IV [1] design with 18" drivers, such as PD1850 [2], would provide an impressive performance within a reasonably sized footprint.
Regards,
WHG
[1a] http://electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?f=Patrician IV DIY Manual.pdf
[1b] http://electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?f=Patrician IV Assembly.pdf
[2] Precision Devices International Limited
I always wonder about those bass horns that become a wall or two of the room. Does all the horn theory support a horn that goes merrily along expanding and then suddenly gets dumped into a tiny sealed box (the room)? I don't think a tweeter horn would work normally if I stuck a mic into a little wooden box and fed the horn's mouth right into it. This isn't a comment coming from any knowledge, though, just an "I dunno" and thinking there is something fundamentally different about a horn that radiates into free space and one that smashes into a little cube...
Similar in concept, but with the advantage of helping to cure the room's problem of being square would be to build them along the side walls.
dave
yes, that is the Le Cleach style horn stand. In that application I think they are more for mid bass with an Altec 416. I really need to setup a windows based pc so I can use hornresp again. I think a ceiling hung version would be amazing, and keep the room usable. One of the 18" Precision Device driver or even a 21" in a LeCleach horn stan would be amazing.
Anyone keen to help simulate a 18" PD driver in a Lecleach Horn with 6metres width to use?
Fwiw, I do not like the way the K-horn works in practice - it is far too room dependent, you never know what it will sound like until you try it... highly variable.
Not sure why anyone needs an 18" or 21" driver for a bass horn??
The whole idea of a horn is to convert the short strong motion of a driver via the horn into a larger weaker motion, in this case bass.
I am not certain, but it seems to me that I would prefer a pair (or more) of 12" drivers over a single large driver... at a certain point of making the driver large enough, the purpose of the horn is out the window, ie. makes the horn unnecessary.
In my mind the idea back at the driver end is *compression* - that short strong motion thing again...
And if those horns on the floor are only good to 40Hz (!!!????) then imo that is a big waste of space, time and money.
Ok, I see the previous thread, JMMC is claiming improved impulse response is worth the price of admission...
I would be curious to know if this is merely due to the use of "a horn" or if it is strictly due to using his expansion. The reason I am thinking about this is that a hyperbolic horn will undoubtedly get you flat lower in freq... although I guess with a sharper cutoff on the bottom end (so maybe that is not so good).
I'd *really* like to see some in room response curves, preferably from more than one installation, just to get a sense of the possible room lift effects (if any)... of course it would be nice to see it vs. the "anechoic" simulation (by that I mean without any room effects).
Now I am really curious about these details!
_-_-bear
Not sure why anyone needs an 18" or 21" driver for a bass horn??
The whole idea of a horn is to convert the short strong motion of a driver via the horn into a larger weaker motion, in this case bass.
I am not certain, but it seems to me that I would prefer a pair (or more) of 12" drivers over a single large driver... at a certain point of making the driver large enough, the purpose of the horn is out the window, ie. makes the horn unnecessary.
In my mind the idea back at the driver end is *compression* - that short strong motion thing again...
And if those horns on the floor are only good to 40Hz (!!!????) then imo that is a big waste of space, time and money.
Ok, I see the previous thread, JMMC is claiming improved impulse response is worth the price of admission...
I would be curious to know if this is merely due to the use of "a horn" or if it is strictly due to using his expansion. The reason I am thinking about this is that a hyperbolic horn will undoubtedly get you flat lower in freq... although I guess with a sharper cutoff on the bottom end (so maybe that is not so good).
I'd *really* like to see some in room response curves, preferably from more than one installation, just to get a sense of the possible room lift effects (if any)... of course it would be nice to see it vs. the "anechoic" simulation (by that I mean without any room effects).
Now I am really curious about these details!
_-_-bear
I have not heard a tapped horn, so it may be the greatest thing . No way to know without hearing them... but the implementations I am seeing are not really "horns" exactly - the mouth is too small to be considered a horn at LF. So, these are really some sort of hybrid "tapped transmission line" to my eyes...
I am wondering about the impulse response, since the "rear" radiation of the driver is returned to the wave travelling down the longer expansion, in phase, but later in time, and then ONLY truly in phase at one frequency (time vs. wavelength & distance).
Also the design requires a high Xmax driver, whereas a horn does not.
Interesting design the so-called TH even so...
_-_-bear
That would make it a TTTL - Tapped Tapered Transmission Line?
I am wondering about the impulse response, since the "rear" radiation of the driver is returned to the wave travelling down the longer expansion, in phase, but later in time, and then ONLY truly in phase at one frequency (time vs. wavelength & distance).
Also the design requires a high Xmax driver, whereas a horn does not.
Interesting design the so-called TH even so...
_-_-bear
That would make it a TTTL - Tapped Tapered Transmission Line?
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Bass Horn Notes
1) In the application at issue, horn use is a prerequisite and the frequency of operation is below 200 Hz. Folding it into a corner yields the best performance for the footprint allocated under these conditions.
2) Low frequency performance, irrespective of driver enclosure used, remains dependant on room dimensions. As wave length increases, standing wave modes decrease in number but become intense and localized.
3) When wavelength becomes much larger than room dimensions then it is simply a pressure response you are dealing with.
4) At these frequencies the horn becomes acoustically transparent and a large driver [VD] is required to reproduce the signal.
5) If horn loading of the first several octaves of program signal is to be seriously undertaken, the venue will be outdoors and the constructor will be an expert in the forming and placement of concret.
Regards,
WHG
1) In the application at issue, horn use is a prerequisite and the frequency of operation is below 200 Hz. Folding it into a corner yields the best performance for the footprint allocated under these conditions.
2) Low frequency performance, irrespective of driver enclosure used, remains dependant on room dimensions. As wave length increases, standing wave modes decrease in number but become intense and localized.
3) When wavelength becomes much larger than room dimensions then it is simply a pressure response you are dealing with.
4) At these frequencies the horn becomes acoustically transparent and a large driver [VD] is required to reproduce the signal.
5) If horn loading of the first several octaves of program signal is to be seriously undertaken, the venue will be outdoors and the constructor will be an expert in the forming and placement of concret.
Regards,
WHG
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