Beautiful build Sadik!
Btw I noticed TG9FD's 8 ohm version is back on sale:
Peerless by Tymphany TG9FD10-08 3-1/2" Glass Fiber Cone Full-Range Driver 8 Ohm
I've read that it's supposedly superior to the 4 ohm version, frd graph in the datasheet does show a flatter high frequency response but also a step around 1kHz. Do you guys think I should consider upgrading? (I'm currently using 4ohm TG9FDs)
Btw I noticed TG9FD's 8 ohm version is back on sale:
Peerless by Tymphany TG9FD10-08 3-1/2" Glass Fiber Cone Full-Range Driver 8 Ohm
I've read that it's supposedly superior to the 4 ohm version, frd graph in the datasheet does show a flatter high frequency response but also a step around 1kHz. Do you guys think I should consider upgrading? (I'm currently using 4ohm TG9FDs)
Happy new everybody : )
@Sadik, beautifull work.
@wxn, about responses for TG9 4 ohms verse 8 ohms a guess is as long you measure your system and use active DSP correction you should be able get same results in that regard, that said stuff as a real tranducer is also kind of occilating microphone (motional feedback) then relation ratio of output impedance from whatever amp is used to short motional feedback is better for 8 ohms version. Guess to test if you subjective like sound of a relative stiffer electric transducer you could try ad "Resonance" and "Inductance" compensating networks to your 4 ohms version of TG9 or also try using a shortest as possible speakercable in a test situation. Example of "Resonance" and "Inductance" compensation networks is in below XSim for a TC9 in its enclosure situation, without any network compensation impedance is the grey traces where blue traces is with the network components, C1/L1/R2 is taking care of 151Hz resonance and C2/R3/C3/R4 takes care of inductance rise above resonance. Outcome is one gets a stiffer electrical transducer that is less sensitive to pressure from enviroment such as reflecting acoustic waves as those from woofer band and also some measurements have shown when they measure at speaker cable terminals in whatever end of cable it can improve numbers.
@Sadik, beautifull work.
@wxn, about responses for TG9 4 ohms verse 8 ohms a guess is as long you measure your system and use active DSP correction you should be able get same results in that regard, that said stuff as a real tranducer is also kind of occilating microphone (motional feedback) then relation ratio of output impedance from whatever amp is used to short motional feedback is better for 8 ohms version. Guess to test if you subjective like sound of a relative stiffer electric transducer you could try ad "Resonance" and "Inductance" compensating networks to your 4 ohms version of TG9 or also try using a shortest as possible speakercable in a test situation. Example of "Resonance" and "Inductance" compensation networks is in below XSim for a TC9 in its enclosure situation, without any network compensation impedance is the grey traces where blue traces is with the network components, C1/L1/R2 is taking care of 151Hz resonance and C2/R3/C3/R4 takes care of inductance rise above resonance. Outcome is one gets a stiffer electrical transducer that is less sensitive to pressure from enviroment such as reflecting acoustic waves as those from woofer band and also some measurements have shown when they measure at speaker cable terminals in whatever end of cable it can improve numbers.
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Happy new year!
BYRTT: that is indeed inpressive correction! So if I understand you correctly, the same could be achieved with speaker cables of half resistance? My current setup is like you're suggesting - one speaker has .7m cable, the other over 3m. I can't say I'm hearing any differences between them. Maybe the effect is too subtle for my ears.. I do however see the reason behind compensation networks, worthy experiment if one has adequate impedance measurement capability!
BYRTT: that is indeed inpressive correction! So if I understand you correctly, the same could be achieved with speaker cables of half resistance? My current setup is like you're suggesting - one speaker has .7m cable, the other over 3m. I can't say I'm hearing any differences between them. Maybe the effect is too subtle for my ears.. I do however see the reason behind compensation networks, worthy experiment if one has adequate impedance measurement capability!
Agree its mostly a subtle effect and especially the cable test can be subtle or non audioable, but if one seek a bit less distortion here and there in diy adventure it can be one of them. In one case its also a visual improvement, that is if one linearize resonance of a real woofer although it takes some huge values for components, then one can see with eyes that on some old tracks where there can sometimes be much low rumble or DC thump interference that make woofer visual occilate, but when linearized it get steady as a rock. In guitar world there is another funny related effect to low verse high impedance cases, guitar pickups are mostly of relative high impedance and same is amp input that can be huge so with high gain settings to get distorted sound one can hop upon cable and hear how cable R/L/C effects pops out of system because its so undamped and sensitive to cable R/L/C changes.
REW can do those measurements, hit "Help" "Impedance Measurements", but be carefull never overload input of soundcard, it should be best use low impedance output so use a real power amp or headphone amp there combined use of a resistor divider network. Then load measurement into XSim and use "Shunt Notch" network in "Circuitblocks" meny to linearize resonance is the most easy way to tune resonance flat.
REW can do those measurements, hit "Help" "Impedance Measurements", but be carefull never overload input of soundcard, it should be best use low impedance output so use a real power amp or headphone amp there combined use of a resistor divider network. Then load measurement into XSim and use "Shunt Notch" network in "Circuitblocks" meny to linearize resonance is the most easy way to tune resonance flat.
I use the TG9 in a fast type of speaker, system is used in a quite small listening room with relative short listening distance. I think Tg9 quickly starts to sound hard when increasing the sound level. Tg9 are hp crossed at 350hz with 4order LR. Would a change to s-s 10F improve sound quality by a margin?
Can you clarify if you are using 4ohm or 8ohm version of TG9? They are quite different drivers actually from T/S parameters as well as frequency response and power handling. Even the driver basket and magnet structure looks different.
I think 8ohm TG9 sounds very similar to 10F/8424 and doesn’t sound hard. What you maybe calling “hard” is simply the lack of sufficient baffle step correction to equalize the mids and highs with the bass falloff.
Hi celef,
Conclude sound is hard sounds as something is terrible wrong for setup somewhere i think, especially based you listen relative nearfield in a small room, think 350Hz should be fine when you at a 4th order roll off. Guess you have some interference problems either acoustic electric or for both those domains that needs bit of attention or research.
Below polar is theoretical half space beaming for 68mm driver and high passed LR 4th order at 350Hz.
Below REW overlay is room gains for a speaker placed at a random position inside a room with longest room dimensions of 2/3/4/6 meters (see legend for colours), moving position of speaker around in room will change distances to boundarys and so will change curves too, smaller room in general increase pressurization as seen there and in head phones can go up to 2-3kHz area predicted my study is done right.
Hard sound for TG9 i cant think of except as said if you have to big interference problems where stuff cansel out with out knowing, else can think of sound can be hard if room gain example below conflict with speaker resonse down there say 200Hz and below because then low end timing comes too early and rhytm in music plus natural foot tapping is lost, and if that is the case try add some reverse EQ of your room curve down there to relax the too fast and hot amplitude bass area.
To simulate your room and speaker positions try use "Baffle Diffraction and Boundary Simulator" v1.2 from this link (software), it can export curves as frd files over to REW where you can reverse them or EQ them or whatever to think about.
Conclude sound is hard sounds as something is terrible wrong for setup somewhere i think, especially based you listen relative nearfield in a small room, think 350Hz should be fine when you at a 4th order roll off. Guess you have some interference problems either acoustic electric or for both those domains that needs bit of attention or research.
Below polar is theoretical half space beaming for 68mm driver and high passed LR 4th order at 350Hz.
Below REW overlay is room gains for a speaker placed at a random position inside a room with longest room dimensions of 2/3/4/6 meters (see legend for colours), moving position of speaker around in room will change distances to boundarys and so will change curves too, smaller room in general increase pressurization as seen there and in head phones can go up to 2-3kHz area predicted my study is done right.
Hard sound for TG9 i cant think of except as said if you have to big interference problems where stuff cansel out with out knowing, else can think of sound can be hard if room gain example below conflict with speaker resonse down there say 200Hz and below because then low end timing comes too early and rhytm in music plus natural foot tapping is lost, and if that is the case try add some reverse EQ of your room curve down there to relax the too fast and hot amplitude bass area.
To simulate your room and speaker positions try use "Baffle Diffraction and Boundary Simulator" v1.2 from this link (software), it can export curves as frd files over to REW where you can reverse them or EQ them or whatever to think about.
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BYRTT,
that is a very cool exercise. Something I should do to further my knowledge of crossovers.
But, if we are talking "real life" scenario, that is a lot of money thrown at a $12 driver!
We're talking about $95 in parts ... for each driver. Ouch!
Ha ha perceval you think it gets expensive
no start maybe with what you have and make some trials, myself ordered a big box well sixty or something different inductors from RS Components cost was something as 50-80€ and it makes me do whatever research on dayly basis to make objetive data curves and get a grib or feel on subjective conclusions, now its not the heavy inductors that can take hundreds of watts forever as those wesayso got for his final build but where mine is bit too small to keep cost down but they are fine for shorter time of full SPL stroke and no problem for normal SPL then one can always buy the expensive ones if build gets the approved stamp to stay for longer time. Subjective the resonance linearization for a sealed box running the woofer band can actual be a night and day experience but thats up to you to try and don't worry for the huge capacitors simply wire two electrolytic back to back and remeasure linearization or capacitor value after say 2-3 years if they keep doing their job. And why shouln't you have a couple boxes laying around with inductors and capacitors when you have tons of different drivers laying around That said now don't kill me
i could be wrong but myself been thinking about you had for a time come into a period of your audio life where simple as possible seems to rule or rock and thats fine and think can follow how it can sound interesting and kind of alive but then stuff as above is not forward but backwards in subjective system can get alot more clinic compared to simple as possible, but down the road for me and also learned from wesayso endless research (Thanks) such clues as clinic has often lead to one can find other misconfigurations and when they solved bit for bit then closer to the dream sound show up.So in general don't spend 95$ in parts per driver bandpass
at least not before outcome is stamped as improvement.
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In a way that is great because is there one driver on the earth myself been arround that have one of the most gentle impendance noice it is TC9
Welcome celef,
4 ohms is for cars low voltage isn't can you swing the higher voltage i get 8 ohms and 16 ohms if it was possible, but thats maybe just me and the little relative better damping factor ratio.
Think TC9 is fantastic especially objective but also subjective when alright dialed in it rocks, what is left is if one can one get over the non bragging rights because its low cost.
In 10F domain the two top end variants should be good, myself and X have 8 ohms version and 4 ohm version is well documented over at Zapp (LINK: Zaph|Audio), go to Blog at top and schroll down to fine benched graps for 4 ohms version. Benched graphs for lowest cost 10F/8410G10 is to find over at (LINK: DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen) schroll down to SS sector and find it somewhere either alone by itself or into various builds.
4 ohms is for cars low voltage isn't
can you swing the higher voltage i get 8 ohms and 16 ohms if it was possible, but thats maybe just me and the little relative better damping factor ratio.Think TC9 is fantastic especially objective but also subjective when alright dialed in it rocks, what is left is if one can one get over the non bragging rights because its low cost.
In 10F domain the two top end variants should be good, myself and X have 8 ohms version and 4 ohm version is well documented over at Zapp (LINK: Zaph|Audio), go to Blog at top and schroll down to fine benched graps for 4 ohms version. Benched graphs for lowest cost 10F/8410G10 is to find over at (LINK: DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen) schroll down to SS sector and find it somewhere either alone by itself or into various builds.
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i think better. i am guessing piano dac's chip pcm5142 is superior to what minidsp uses. plus i have been doing comparison listening songs with and without kali reclocker, and for very well recorded high res audio (from tidal) there is considerable audible improvement.
not really limited to first order. on request DonVK prepared bins for first order so as to work with this speaker. he has also posted ready to use bins for LR2 and for different mid/tweeter freq also. with purepath sw, any xover point can be configured. but the issue is getting the sw itself is headache.