Hi Respected Members,
I am Sacheen from India and new to this forum .
In the quest of enjoying vinyl playback to the maximum, ended up designing and developing a MC cartridge. I want to take it to the next level by bringing it out in the market.
Please suggest your views on what should be the approach to take it forward. Need to decide the pricing , marketing strategy and much more.
Eager for your expert opinion.
Approx. Draft Specifications
Output 0.3mV @ 1kz
Coil Resistance : 12ohm
Stereo Seperation > 28 db
Stylus : Elliptical on Aluminium cantilever
VTF : 1.75 to 2 gms
Static Compliance ~ 9.5x10-6cm/dyne
Weight : ~5.7 gms
Body : Dense Indian Rosewood body
Mounting : Threaded inserts for easy mounting and tight coupling with the headshell.
I am Sacheen from India and new to this forum .
In the quest of enjoying vinyl playback to the maximum, ended up designing and developing a MC cartridge. I want to take it to the next level by bringing it out in the market.
Please suggest your views on what should be the approach to take it forward. Need to decide the pricing , marketing strategy and much more.
Eager for your expert opinion.
Approx. Draft Specifications
Output 0.3mV @ 1kz
Coil Resistance : 12ohm
Stereo Seperation > 28 db
Stylus : Elliptical on Aluminium cantilever
VTF : 1.75 to 2 gms
Static Compliance ~ 9.5x10-6cm/dyne
Weight : ~5.7 gms
Body : Dense Indian Rosewood body
Mounting : Threaded inserts for easy mounting and tight coupling with the headshell.
Legit question. I for one would also like to test one out at home, maybe for a review??
Also would be interresting to hear, at what price range you´re considering your product(s). And a bit more spec´s.....
for example coil shape, coil anchor material, type of magnets a.s.o.....
Thanks waltube, lcsaszar, Boydk for your responses.
At present, i can provide audio samples. Or even photos.
Samples & Review may be a part of suggestions I am seeking guidance on.
Coils - 6N OCC(Ohno Continuous Cast) pure copper wire
Core - Soft Iron Unicore
Magnet - semi-annular Neodymium
Pricing is one of the difficult part yet to deal with.. need suggestions.
Let us invite more suggestions and ideas.
At present, i can provide audio samples. Or even photos.
Samples & Review may be a part of suggestions I am seeking guidance on.
Coils - 6N OCC(Ohno Continuous Cast) pure copper wire
Core - Soft Iron Unicore
Magnet - semi-annular Neodymium
Pricing is one of the difficult part yet to deal with.. need suggestions.
Let us invite more suggestions and ideas.
It was a joke. I afraid if it is not a high-end product, the market will be very small. Who listens nowadays to vinyl? Either obsessed audiophiles, or young people because of fashion. Maybe I am wrong.
In any case it must be similar to a watchmaker's job. I wish good luck with it.
In any case it must be similar to a watchmaker's job. I wish good luck with it.
Hello,
Have you characterized the cartridges performance in graphical plots?
I am also interested in the stylus profile dimensions. I would have used a line contact or variant like Shibata or micro ridge, as they have been shown to cause less wear to high-frequency grooves.
Have you characterized the cartridges performance in graphical plots?
I am also interested in the stylus profile dimensions. I would have used a line contact or variant like Shibata or micro ridge, as they have been shown to cause less wear to high-frequency grooves.
Thanks kouiky for your valuable inputs.
Can consider on graphical plot.
Stylus profile 0.3 × 0.7mil elliptical.
Had a chance to pitch this cart against another well-known microline MC. Ours held the ground very well. Our design is unique which provides several advantages.
Shibata or micro ridge can be next versions. Would love to go there as early as possible.
Can consider on graphical plot.
Stylus profile 0.3 × 0.7mil elliptical.
Had a chance to pitch this cart against another well-known microline MC. Ours held the ground very well. Our design is unique which provides several advantages.
Shibata or micro ridge can be next versions. Would love to go there as early as possible.
I would think a line contact stylus on tapered aluminum cantilever would be the minimum on a boutique cartridge, if that's the market segment you're going after.
So, somewhere between $1k-2k USD? There are a lot of nice cartridges in that price range already.
jeff
Thank you vinylkid58 for your valuable inputs on styus-cantilever profile and the pricing.
Yes agree, there is lot of competition already. Hence need lot of good suggestions.
Yes agree, there is lot of competition already. Hence need lot of good suggestions.
Which is good from a marketing standpoint, because you want to "stand out" in a rather crowded marketplace.
jeff
Sample recording, which i was listening just now.. its a piece from Hiroshima - Third Generation.
Agree.... Hard to determine from totally unknown music with no top end and no bottom end.
Suggest, you try some well known "western" kind of genre with solid bass and more present top end 😉
Also.... You ask for suggestions about price.
Depends on what you want. Make a performer at a reasonable price, or do as most other "high end" brands.... Compare to
"what´s out there" and price it similarly, no matter the production costs??
Thanks Boydk & vinylkid58.
Will share different samples as suggested.
Noted, both Pricing approaches.
Lets also talk about marketing strategy and sales platform, where to begin considering that the Cartridge is hand-made and time intensive to produce. It requires highly skilled hands, patience and passion to produce each piece.
Suggestions and thoughts please..
Will share different samples as suggested.
Noted, both Pricing approaches.
Lets also talk about marketing strategy and sales platform, where to begin considering that the Cartridge is hand-made and time intensive to produce. It requires highly skilled hands, patience and passion to produce each piece.
Suggestions and thoughts please..
I would have loved to have been involved in the design of a cartridge, and I think the OP has a very fortunate opportunity.
The thing is, competition in the suggested bracket might make it difficult. The Audio-Technica ART9XI and ART9XA are tough to beat in terms of low-distortion and overall sound. I had go a fair deal higher to exceed it.
My advice is either the cartridge should perhaps offer an outstanding value and priced low to undercut the whole market, or it should be an improvement on the existing problems that MM & MC carts face.
The biggest hurdle by far is the mechanical impedance mismatch between the groove wall interface and the moving components. The result is a resonance frequency usually between 15kHz - 30kHz that causes the stylus to rattle in the groove. Why does this matter, you may ask? Wear. Stylus profile also matters, but while tracking force often receives the most blame for stylus radius wear and groove galling, the motion of the vibration returning back down the cantilever to the stylus contact points has been identified as the largest culprit of gradual wear.
Peter Ledermann gave a good lecture on this, and Sound Smith’s strain gauge cartridge was shown to have a low enough moving mass to increase resonance to about 100kHz and at a low enough amplitude that even with an outrageous 2.5g VTF it could play a lacquer cutting 150 times with no detectable wear. An MC might play it 5 or 6 times, max.
So, there is a business idea.
The thing is, competition in the suggested bracket might make it difficult. The Audio-Technica ART9XI and ART9XA are tough to beat in terms of low-distortion and overall sound. I had go a fair deal higher to exceed it.
My advice is either the cartridge should perhaps offer an outstanding value and priced low to undercut the whole market, or it should be an improvement on the existing problems that MM & MC carts face.
The biggest hurdle by far is the mechanical impedance mismatch between the groove wall interface and the moving components. The result is a resonance frequency usually between 15kHz - 30kHz that causes the stylus to rattle in the groove. Why does this matter, you may ask? Wear. Stylus profile also matters, but while tracking force often receives the most blame for stylus radius wear and groove galling, the motion of the vibration returning back down the cantilever to the stylus contact points has been identified as the largest culprit of gradual wear.
Peter Ledermann gave a good lecture on this, and Sound Smith’s strain gauge cartridge was shown to have a low enough moving mass to increase resonance to about 100kHz and at a low enough amplitude that even with an outrageous 2.5g VTF it could play a lacquer cutting 150 times with no detectable wear. An MC might play it 5 or 6 times, max.
So, there is a business idea.
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Thanks kouiky.
Agree AT's are hard to beat in terms of value, price. quality and availability. They are always in my favourite list.
Though the cart is already designed .. any suggestions you may have w.r.t design are most welcome. It will provide an opportunity to reconsider or improve upon.
Can you share some reference article on your point about mechanical impedance mismatch between the groove wall interface and the moving components.
What we tried to achieve is to minimize resonance in the body by adopting single piece Rosewood body. magnet with no pole pieces, direct mounting of Stylus assembly on the Rosewood body. Thereby lowering the total mass of the cartridge and also unwanted vibrations. Also the 6N OCC Coils are fused together to further reduce scope for micro resonance.
You are most welcome to share your thoughts and ideas on the design aspect.
Agree AT's are hard to beat in terms of value, price. quality and availability. They are always in my favourite list.
Though the cart is already designed .. any suggestions you may have w.r.t design are most welcome. It will provide an opportunity to reconsider or improve upon.
Can you share some reference article on your point about mechanical impedance mismatch between the groove wall interface and the moving components.
What we tried to achieve is to minimize resonance in the body by adopting single piece Rosewood body. magnet with no pole pieces, direct mounting of Stylus assembly on the Rosewood body. Thereby lowering the total mass of the cartridge and also unwanted vibrations. Also the 6N OCC Coils are fused together to further reduce scope for micro resonance.
You are most welcome to share your thoughts and ideas on the design aspect.
I don’t have a reference article on hand as it’s unfortunately outside my field of study. It’s been a while, but I know you can find some videos of him on YouTube.
Mechanical impedance matching relates to how a structure resists motion or flexion when subjected to a harmonic force. In a mismatch, a body is set in motion wants to stay in motion and longitudinal structures will flex transversely to reflect that motion like a whip or rubber band back to the origin point. To remedy it requires low mass, short lengths and high rigidity.
Peter Ledermann is a most interesting person to listen to or read from. What is immediately apparent is, this accomplished individual’s utmost awareness of the problems faced in these designs, and, that in recognizing them he has worked to devise pragmatic solutions.
Peter refers to the behaviour of the stylus as “jitter”, an unwanted high-frequency motion of the stylus and it’s moving assembly, which occurs in all directions to generate intermodulated sidebands and wear.
I feel guilty of putting ideas in your mind, but some part herein might spark a fantastic creative nexus. The link below discussed another design Peter uses in his more affordable cartridges, fixed-coil moving iron.
https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/fixed-coil-vs-moving-coil-why-make-jump-different-technology
Mechanical impedance matching relates to how a structure resists motion or flexion when subjected to a harmonic force. In a mismatch, a body is set in motion wants to stay in motion and longitudinal structures will flex transversely to reflect that motion like a whip or rubber band back to the origin point. To remedy it requires low mass, short lengths and high rigidity.
Peter Ledermann is a most interesting person to listen to or read from. What is immediately apparent is, this accomplished individual’s utmost awareness of the problems faced in these designs, and, that in recognizing them he has worked to devise pragmatic solutions.
Peter refers to the behaviour of the stylus as “jitter”, an unwanted high-frequency motion of the stylus and it’s moving assembly, which occurs in all directions to generate intermodulated sidebands and wear.
I feel guilty of putting ideas in your mind, but some part herein might spark a fantastic creative nexus. The link below discussed another design Peter uses in his more affordable cartridges, fixed-coil moving iron.
https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/fixed-coil-vs-moving-coil-why-make-jump-different-technology
I spent several months studying stylus playback distortion mechanisms earlier this year. It seems the largest contributor to distortion is the tracing error introduced by the large radius of the stylus tip. The record is cut with a sharp blade. Playback with a round tip adds harmonic distortion and phase variation as the round tip contacts the record surface at different places on the tip based on the slope of the signal. So for the lowest distortion the smallest radius stylus tip is a must. So a micro-line stylus is the only thing that gets close to providing some semblance of good fidelity. Even with the smallest stylus radius record playback has at best 0.5 % harmonic distortion in the 1 kHz range. Publishing this sort of performance measurement of stylus playback is avoided at all cost in the audiophile magazines.
It would be interesting for you to characterize the performance of your cartridge in comparison to other cartridges using a test record. This
youTube video shows some examples.
I think the audiophile high end boutique cartridges are more like a piece of art or jewelry. I think most of these products focus on the exotic materials and artistic style of the product and gloss over the technical performance.
Comparison and detailed measurements of Audio-Technica AT95E and Nagaoka MP-110 phono cartridges.
It would be interesting for you to characterize the performance of your cartridge in comparison to other cartridges using a test record. This
youTube video shows some examples.
I think the audiophile high end boutique cartridges are more like a piece of art or jewelry. I think most of these products focus on the exotic materials and artistic style of the product and gloss over the technical performance.
Comparison and detailed measurements of Audio-Technica AT95E and Nagaoka MP-110 phono cartridges.
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