This is a question mainly to Scott and Dave. I think I remember reading somewhere Scott that you were working on some 2-way designs incorporating FR drivers? Have you made any progress on these, I wonder?
Having built the triangle speakers using MAOP 7s and a home streamer using Alpair 6.2s I am looking for ideas for the next build, having hopefully built up enough confidence to make something with greater acoustic presence for the living room.
Ideally (but not fixed) I'd like a stand-mount solution for a 6m x 5m living room that gives "effortless bass" (if that's a term?) along with the silky-smooth mids and trebles of the MA drivers, hence the question about two-ways. I listen to a lot of electronic music (among other styles) and my first two DIY efforts reproduce this type of music politely rather than with excitement (compared to say my B&W 607s3s in the study).
I'd prefer not to use a separate sub-woofer, so would I be better off going for a conventional two-way using say SB or Scanspeak woofers and tweeters, or is there a WAW or 2-way design in the wings that might be worth waiting for? Even better if I can incorporate curves into it! My other equipment is a superb 25-year-old Lyngdorf-built Tact Millenium digital amplifier and a streamer (currently Bluesound 2i but to be upgraded). Current speakers in the lounge are floor-standing Dynaudio Contour 3.3s of a similar vintage to the amp, but I'm looking to build something with less bulk and more sparkle to get the best out of lossless streaming.
Having built the triangle speakers using MAOP 7s and a home streamer using Alpair 6.2s I am looking for ideas for the next build, having hopefully built up enough confidence to make something with greater acoustic presence for the living room.
Ideally (but not fixed) I'd like a stand-mount solution for a 6m x 5m living room that gives "effortless bass" (if that's a term?) along with the silky-smooth mids and trebles of the MA drivers, hence the question about two-ways. I listen to a lot of electronic music (among other styles) and my first two DIY efforts reproduce this type of music politely rather than with excitement (compared to say my B&W 607s3s in the study).
I'd prefer not to use a separate sub-woofer, so would I be better off going for a conventional two-way using say SB or Scanspeak woofers and tweeters, or is there a WAW or 2-way design in the wings that might be worth waiting for? Even better if I can incorporate curves into it! My other equipment is a superb 25-year-old Lyngdorf-built Tact Millenium digital amplifier and a streamer (currently Bluesound 2i but to be upgraded). Current speakers in the lounge are floor-standing Dynaudio Contour 3.3s of a similar vintage to the amp, but I'm looking to build something with less bulk and more sparkle to get the best out of lossless streaming.
Last edited:
It will be hard to beat that Dynaudio. Very nice amp, with room correction if I remember it right?
The Tact Millenium has inputs at the rear for a Lyngdorf room correction system module which I don't have. It was used to great effect in small hotel rooms at hifi shows in the late 90s (where I first heard it) but few buyers could afford one after paying almost USD$10k for the amp! Would be interested to know if such modules are still around or if another RCS solution could be used. Agreed that the Dynaudios are excellent, but they are showing their age and I'm game to find out if DIY can better them. Now there's a challenge, Scott!
I've done a number, though they're largely still in a semi-complete state (i.e. I haven't inflicted them on the long-suffering Dave yet) as they were done as / for use as commercial projects rather than general DIY release. Whether any would suit is another question; if you're after a size reduction to standmount and 'effortless bass' relative to your existing Dynaudios with a pair of 8in LF units, that's not so easy as they'd be immediately down on cone area & these things unfortunately count. Careful driver selection & enclosure load can help, obviously, though that only goes so far. Depends too what sort of cost you're looking at (drivers etc.), complexity etc. I recently finished the preliminary work on an Avalon / Vimberg style 2-way with Scan Discovery series units for e.g. -but it's an 8in trapezoidal floorstander with chamfered baffle & (within reason) me throwing the kitchen sink at an Altec / JBL fusion filter, so it has the traditional transfer functions & corners that I happen to like, with the biased passive components Timbers introduced & my favourite input Zobel to flatten the impedance load / straighten out the electrical phase angles, which isn't strictly necessary but follows my 'whatever the amplifier is, it will thank you for giving it an easier time' mantra. 😉 I doubt this would necessarily suit your needs though.
Look inward. What size woofer gives you more of a giddy feeling and involuntary smile?
24 months ago, ish, I jumped on the WAW bandwagon, so I'll give a couple of thoughts on that.
I have mixed feelings about the whole "pro midwoofer used as bass for 2-ways" idea. Guided by idealism, the woofers had to have cloth surrounds, but that invariably comes as a package deal, like stiff suspension, lacking deep bass, and bright uncontrolled upper mid-range that goes much higher than strictly necessary. If you have the spare time and energy to tinker with Linkwitz transforms or similar parametric EQ, to 'fight' with a square woofer so it fits a round hole, then go for it. The mid-range up to 1kHz is very loud and pure, so it may be worth it, if you can see it to completion.
To my ears, the Alpair 5 really shines above 1kHz. It can be pushed an octave, or 2 or 3 lower, but I think that whole region should be reserved for a soft roll-off, e.g. by using a small box, maybe combining it with a 1st order active filter, so the amplifier doesn't add its own distortion by unnecessary bass duties.
I kind-of shifted focus to designing amplifiers, with no time for woodwork. But I did have time to think.
For "effortless" bass, a big diameter helps, and 10" can probably be squeezed onto stands, albeit big ones.
I also have the CHP-90 (nominal ~5") running on its own in 14 litres sealed, but that does a lot better as a bedroom speaker, with satisfying room gain. But the high frequencies are not as tightly integrated as with the smaller Alpair, although in some ways they also sound nicer. My amplifier efforts also try to solve this conundrum, because the Alpair seems quite harsh and "hard to tame" if plugging it straight into a cheap class-D source.
I would try a 4" top + 8 or 10" bass, and get them to cross over smoothly with plenty of overlap at some fairly benign register like a few 100 Hz, and do listening tests to narrow down where the sweet spot is.
I built this a few years ago and it went down very well at an annual show attended by the audio talk forum here in the uk. I sat on this idea for over 10 years after attending the one and only diyaudio event here in the uk, in 2007. At that show there was a chap showing a triangle plan cabinet with a Jordan speaker which I thought sounded quite splendid.
Anyway, move forward 10+ years and I’m clearing out unused drivers from the shelf and put together this after remembering the diyaudio show and wondering what the triangle plan shape actually brings to the party. I was not disappointed.
I didn’t put the details up on my website as I was winding down all things hifi, but in essence it’s a 43ltr sealed cab with a seas fa22 and fostex ft17 with only a series cap.
If it’s of interest I will post build pictures and details.
Anyway, move forward 10+ years and I’m clearing out unused drivers from the shelf and put together this after remembering the diyaudio show and wondering what the triangle plan shape actually brings to the party. I was not disappointed.
I didn’t put the details up on my website as I was winding down all things hifi, but in essence it’s a 43ltr sealed cab with a seas fa22 and fostex ft17 with only a series cap.
If it’s of interest I will post build pictures and details.
Attachments
Thanks Scott. The move towards stand mounts is to take account of a possible downsizing move in the not too distant future. I would hate to invest time and money in new floor standers now only to find they won't fit in a smaller space in a year or two. Coming back into audiophile land after a long time away (25 years) I thought speaker technology would have remained largely unchanged, but I have been amazed at the progress in speaker technology and materials as well as the capabilities of FR drivers. I recognise that a two-way stand mount cannot compete with the Dynaudios in terms of cone "real estate" but if the B&Ws 607s3s are any guide, I was hoping new materials might bridge that gap. But if there is no obvious DIY solution I would probably just go with a pair of B&W stand mounts for the lounge and keep my DIY efforts to the study and kitchen.
The trapezoidal floor standers do come across as exciting though, even though they sound beyond my DIY capabilities.
Thanks abstract. I understand what you say about the WAW solution and your comments on Alpairs. Your "round peg in a square hole" comment makes me nervous to go down this path, especially if there are so many variables and I have no tried and tested speaker plans to build from. Being in the lounge these speakers will need to look nice and therefore I'd be using some fairly expensive timber (aren't they all these days?), so don't really want to experiment.
Thanks vitalstates. As you may have seen I love triangles! But for the reasons mentioned above in my case they would need to be stand mounted. I'm sure the plans would be of general interest to the DIY community, along with any comments on how they sound.
Unless Dave or others have any other suggestions, my search would probably move away from 2-way FRs and head off in the direction of an established stand mount BR design such as Troels Gravesen's Quattro.
I can look at a standmount variation if you wish; it just wouldn't be quite as refined as the full floorstander design with its chamfered front baffle etc.
That was certainly one I had in mind too. Only downside (I'm sure X can take it -unlike me, he's a successful commercial designer after all) is that I don't like the filter slope on the RS225. Heresy I know, but I'm not a member of the transient-perfect community, & that is one driver I wouldn't even think about running a 1st order LP on at that frequency. Beating it into submission with LR6 or > slopes and with stopband notch to stamp on the distortion amplification, yes. 😉 I stress, that's just me though -it's not meant as a criticism, & simply shows how different designers approach things differently & prioritise different characteristics.
WAW, Woofer Assited Wideband.
If you biamp this is pretty simple. Add a helper woofer to each of your triangles.
There is a HUGE selection of woofers, usually used up to a tweeter, the top end of the woofer can be ignored in a WAW and the problem areas. Pick one that suits your needs.
The most significant WAW Scott and i have done use the now NLA Alpair 12pw :^)
If you want a passive XO that is harder, I think of the designs done that have a passive XO only Tysen V2 is still doable (a low cost WAW), a bookself version of that exists. The XO for the Aplair 5.2/3 CHN-50 is not as well developed.
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/planset/TysenV2-promo-171217.pdf
Here a picture of the only time it was demoed (siting on topof an FE207 box), with 2 members (Cal Weldon and DaveR) providiong the beef in between ;^)
XRKs WAW is very popular and probably very good, the 10F does not float my boat, and i have an aversion to Dayton (having to do with business practises not the quality, or not, of any of their products)
dave
If you biamp this is pretty simple. Add a helper woofer to each of your triangles.
There is a HUGE selection of woofers, usually used up to a tweeter, the top end of the woofer can be ignored in a WAW and the problem areas. Pick one that suits your needs.
The most significant WAW Scott and i have done use the now NLA Alpair 12pw :^)
If you want a passive XO that is harder, I think of the designs done that have a passive XO only Tysen V2 is still doable (a low cost WAW), a bookself version of that exists. The XO for the Aplair 5.2/3 CHN-50 is not as well developed.
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/planset/TysenV2-promo-171217.pdf
Here a picture of the only time it was demoed (siting on topof an FE207 box), with 2 members (Cal Weldon and DaveR) providiong the beef in between ;^)
XRKs WAW is very popular and probably very good, the 10F does not float my boat, and i have an aversion to Dayton (having to do with business practises not the quality, or not, of any of their products)
dave
I prefer the 4ohm 4424 version of the 10F myself. And I do have a fondness for many of the other Discovery range -not the most advanced motors, but very well designed & the cones are generally very good. I can send you the dimensions of the floorstander if you like. 😉 Will tweak up a simpler standmount version too.
Thanks all. The stand mount sector (say 40 litres) in the commercial world seems to be booming at the moment, I'm not sure why. Perhaps it's due to downsizing baby boomers, more multi-purpose spaces needed at home (e.g. working from home space combined with a kids play area etc.) or just having to fit speakers in with other lounge furniture as property gets more expensive. Although their footprints are similar to floor standers they are (in my view) visually less intrusive and could be used (in extremis) on top of entertainment units or even bookshelves. Thanks for your offer Scott, but there is no need to design something just on my account, but if this is something that you think the DIY community would benefit from then your suggestion to Dave to design something would be much appreciated. Are there any other DIY-ers looking for (or have found?) a stand mount solution?
I would need your help (again!) Dave to turn my (10 litre) triangles into WAWs. I could build some bigger triangles if needed. Where would they go in the cabinet? Crossover? I don't understand how bi-amping works, could I use my Tact Millenium alongside a cheap Chinese class D? Helper woofers would need to be those available in Australia - our biggest supplier of drivers is Wagner, anything there that you think would work well with the MAOP 7s?
I would need your help (again!) Dave to turn my (10 litre) triangles into WAWs. I could build some bigger triangles if needed. Where would they go in the cabinet? Crossover? I don't understand how bi-amping works, could I use my Tact Millenium alongside a cheap Chinese class D? Helper woofers would need to be those available in Australia - our biggest supplier of drivers is Wagner, anything there that you think would work well with the MAOP 7s?
It shall be done -will send when I'm awake in the morning (currently 0130 and I'm asleep, this is just my somnambulist persona currently typing 🤣 ). I quite like this one actually, although you might wince at the baffle...
No big deal, it'd be related to the existing so not entirely from scratch.
I suspect some of the popularity is down to that traditional aesthetic too, fitting in with current tastes. They look like 'proper speakers' or at least smaller versions of, like the JBL etc. models of the '70s.
@Scottmoose -- I've got four of the 4424s, that I'd like to build enclosures for. Eager to see some doodles and happy to pay for plans if I see how they might work for me.
Skip
Sorry I missed this. Forwarding the basic details to Dave today (been tied up for a couple of days) for what I've already worked up. Might be a little challenging for some on the construction / filter, but reasons for it. 😉
This is the last of a number of versions I did with the alpair 10. It uses a monacor rbt95, which I wouldn’t recommend at all. From my experiments with the fostex ft17 I would have got better results in the BR alignment….just a suggestion but an alpair in a simple BR box gives great results.
Attachments
Thanks Scott and Dave for yet more work on behalf of the community. And thanks vitalstates for the BR suggestion (and elegant speakers and stands), this could be where I end up if Scott's design is too complex (for me). But if possible I'd like to acquire some more "cone real estate" within the limits of stand mount dimensions. This did get me thinking though - how would the MA double bass reflex design (attached) compare with a (stand mount) WAW in terms of low end performance? Is this 2010 design still relevant?