I have a pair of Tannoy Comet 10 speakers (made in Canada a while ago). Two years ago I upgrade the original Vifa Tweeters for a pair of Fostex FT17H horn Tweeter with great success ... ie, High frequency are very good now with no distortion. The bass is so so, not sure of that but I think that there is nothing that cut the frequency going to the woofer witch may cause distortion in the low frequency woofer, the only have a capacitor acting as a high pass filter. I'm using a small subwoofer made by Energy with a 8 inch woofer. So my bass is good, the high are good but I'm missing medium frequency to my taste.
Since I'm on a very tight budget, I want to add a mid range and I found this mid compression tweeter at low cost : https://www.skaraudio.com/products/pd1-x-1-inch-horn-driver but they are design for car audio, PA and Monitor system. The specs are exactly what I need, ie, 100 Watts RMS, 110db (wow) 550 Hz - 6,000 Hz but I'm not convince that the quality will be there, what do think ?
I would add this low cost 3 way crossover witch have the specs I need : https://www.ebay.ca/itm/321510819685?epid=1400372746&hash=item4adb89c765:g:rgIAAOSwxH1UBzqV
Thank you for your input.
Since I'm on a very tight budget, I want to add a mid range and I found this mid compression tweeter at low cost : https://www.skaraudio.com/products/pd1-x-1-inch-horn-driver but they are design for car audio, PA and Monitor system. The specs are exactly what I need, ie, 100 Watts RMS, 110db (wow) 550 Hz - 6,000 Hz but I'm not convince that the quality will be there, what do think ?
I would add this low cost 3 way crossover witch have the specs I need : https://www.ebay.ca/itm/321510819685?epid=1400372746&hash=item4adb89c765:g:rgIAAOSwxH1UBzqV
Thank you for your input.
Attachments
To sound decent at 800 Hz, the horn for the thread-on mid driver would need to be nearly the size of the cabinet, even if that driver could sound decent, which is probably unlikely given no frequency response charts are available.
The chances that the generic crossover would work well with your components is pretty slim.
Maybe you could keep it two way if you find the right waveguide, then cross it lower to cover some of the midrange?
This project sounds like a Frankenstein speaker with a low probability of sounding good. There is more to speaker design than just swapping drivers and throwing in an off the shelf Xover. I suggest you start from scratch and find a suitable replacement for your current speakers. Of course if sound quality is not a factor for you then go for it.
Keep your monney, a bad diy is more expensive than a good second hand. Imho it will be monney lost but for the fun. Limited budget asks for efficienty without fun, so a kit if doing diy, with flat pack for instance or a good second hand. Keep what you got !
I don't see anything wrong ading a mid range speaker into an existing 2way speaker box. But, since I'm not ''experience'' in speaker design I'm asking positive suggestion !
I suppose the bottom box in your picture is the subwoofer & the top one your mid+high range? Box is tiny on the upper, woofer is 6"? Many paper cones have enough inductance to roll off before the cone breaks up causing distortion. My KLH23 10"+3" has no woofer inductor, sounds good.
You should be able to do better with something used. I bought a pair decent sounding 3 way for $5 at Salvation Army resale. 7" + 2" + 1". If it didn't sound decent the particle board box was 28"x13.5"x7.5" which offers good chance for upgrade. Lots of used speakers at the nearest resale shop; they get donated when the receiver/cd dies for bad capacitors. I'm using with 75 w amp.
A 6.5" woofer should be able to cover to 3000 hz without strain. Look for something with paper cone that doesn't break up harshly. Visaton BG17-8 covers 100-10000 without bumps and you can put in a series inductor to roll off the dip at 15000 by crossing @ 10000 or less. rated AES power 40 w, not suited for higher power.
If you need more power an Eminence beta-8a is 225 w AES, +-3db 100-4500 hz. With Fs 65 hz a bass reflex box can extend bass f3 down to that frequency. https://eminence.com/collections/pro-audio/products/beta_8a#specifications
Higher power woofer may require thicker enclosure walls + bracing to not resonate. eminence has a suggested box design you can download.
Per post #8 I do first cut equalization with a 15 band analog equalizer, usually about $60 on ebay. 31 band a little more. Peavey and Alesis equalizers don't usually wear out the slide pots the first year. DSP can be used but requires a smart phone which I do not have. You need to insert between music source ( radio CD player, MP3 player, PC with green earphone jack) and power amp line level input.
You should be able to do better with something used. I bought a pair decent sounding 3 way for $5 at Salvation Army resale. 7" + 2" + 1". If it didn't sound decent the particle board box was 28"x13.5"x7.5" which offers good chance for upgrade. Lots of used speakers at the nearest resale shop; they get donated when the receiver/cd dies for bad capacitors. I'm using with 75 w amp.
A 6.5" woofer should be able to cover to 3000 hz without strain. Look for something with paper cone that doesn't break up harshly. Visaton BG17-8 covers 100-10000 without bumps and you can put in a series inductor to roll off the dip at 15000 by crossing @ 10000 or less. rated AES power 40 w, not suited for higher power.
If you need more power an Eminence beta-8a is 225 w AES, +-3db 100-4500 hz. With Fs 65 hz a bass reflex box can extend bass f3 down to that frequency. https://eminence.com/collections/pro-audio/products/beta_8a#specifications
Higher power woofer may require thicker enclosure walls + bracing to not resonate. eminence has a suggested box design you can download.
Per post #8 I do first cut equalization with a 15 band analog equalizer, usually about $60 on ebay. 31 band a little more. Peavey and Alesis equalizers don't usually wear out the slide pots the first year. DSP can be used but requires a smart phone which I do not have. You need to insert between music source ( radio CD player, MP3 player, PC with green earphone jack) and power amp line level input.
Last edited:
One of my real problem is that I never found the specs of my existing old ''Tannoy'' 10 inch woofer, so I'm working kind of blind. Since I have a 10'' inch hole in the baffle, I may buy as well a pair of Eminence BETA-10A 10" American Standard Series Speaker ( I like the 97db efficiency) : My amp is a Outlaw receiver RR2160 at 110 watts RMS per channel at 8 ohm). But from the specs, I would have a ''hole'' from 3.8hz (woofer) and the Fostex Horn super tweeter with is 5kHz to 35kHz. That why I think I need a mid to fill the hole ?
| SPECIFICATION | |
| Nominal Basket Diameter | 10", 254 mm |
| Nominal Impedance* | 8 Ω |
| Power Rating* | |
| Program Power | 500 W |
| Watts | 250 W |
| Resonance | 53 Hz |
| Usable Frequency Range | 51 Hz - 3.8 kHz |
| Sensitivity* | 97 dB |
| Magnet Weight | 34 oz. |
| Gap Height | 0.312", 7.9 mm |
| Voice Coil Diameter | 2", 51 mm |
| THIELE & SMALL PARAMETERS | |
| Resonant Frequency (fs) | 53 Hz |
| DC Resistance (Re) | 5.75 Ω |
| Coil Inductance (Le) | 0.67m H |
| Mechanical Q (Qms) | 8.14 |
| Electromagnetic Q (Qes) | 0.52 |
| Total Q (Qts) | 0.49 |
| Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas) | 60.1 liters / 2.12 cu.ft. |
| Peak Diaphragm Displacement Volume (Vd) | 103.5 cc |
| Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms) | 0.36 mm/N |
| BL Product (BL) | 9.6 T-M |
| Diaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (MMs) | 25 grams |
| Efficiency Bandwidth Product (EBP) | 102 |
| Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) | 3 mm |
| Surface Area of Cone (Sd) | 344.9 cm2 |
| Maximum Mechanical Limit (Xlim) | 8.6 mm |
that's what we try to told you, you need tools to measure and experience and knowledge. People answered in relation to the budget first item on the whish list. It is not as simple than cash and cary... you risk more clash and curry !
We of course people can help you about experience and knowledge, but you need tools, and that is not what you seem to plan/budget. We eventually answered about what you smelt about wasted monney doing the wrong way.
hope that is clearer, not intended to be negative. Imo AllenB advice about optimisation with EQ pots is a very good one, always underated alas. Can be aded speakers placements to play with wall reenforcement to tune the upper bass tones...
🙂
Of course you can have average advices, but it is risky if it doesn't work according the budget. So what do you really want ?
We of course people can help you about experience and knowledge, but you need tools, and that is not what you seem to plan/budget. We eventually answered about what you smelt about wasted monney doing the wrong way.
hope that is clearer, not intended to be negative. Imo AllenB advice about optimisation with EQ pots is a very good one, always underated alas. Can be aded speakers placements to play with wall reenforcement to tune the upper bass tones...
🙂
Of course you can have average advices, but it is risky if it doesn't work according the budget. So what do you really want ?
Last edited:
Yes, going above 3 khz with a 10" woofer leads to beaming and possible cone breakup. With passive crossover components going >$20 apiece, I believe in 2 ways instead of 3. Smaller box, too. Your 5 khz-30 khz CD horn is leaving your hole. Lots of ways to cover 1200 hz to 17 khz with one compression driver. Cheapest is 2 used Peavey 1.4" RX22 CD in used horns from ebay. I bought my pair of spares for $140 shipped. Other choices include eminence N314T-8 1.4" on a p-audio horn (bolt on) or one from reconing-speakers.com (FL) parts-express.com (OH) or your favorite canadian speaker parts vendor. Be sure if buying from US, specify mail shipment as Royal Mail handles customs for free whereas UPS & FedEx charge a >$20 loan origination fee for the customs charge.
If you need to build a box, Toronto or other megacities probably have a maker space that can be rented by the half day or monthly charge. At home you need a saw horse, an old door for a platform, a 3' level as a straight edge, a 3/8" drill, a sabre saw, safety glasses.
Plus the sound measuring rig. I'm using audacity & REW free software on a PC with linux op sys., a intel A/D D/A chipset to blue & green 1/8" stereo jacks, a Peavey PV8 mixer for condensor mikes requiring phatom power, some cables and an outdoor yard with a block wall behind the UUT to boost the bass like indoor walls do. Its quiet out there 0000 to 0400 if the garbage truck is not emptying bins. I have a condensor mike with XLR connector and a camera stand as a mike stand. USB mikes IMHO mess up the timing with variable latency.
If you need to build a box, Toronto or other megacities probably have a maker space that can be rented by the half day or monthly charge. At home you need a saw horse, an old door for a platform, a 3' level as a straight edge, a 3/8" drill, a sabre saw, safety glasses.
Plus the sound measuring rig. I'm using audacity & REW free software on a PC with linux op sys., a intel A/D D/A chipset to blue & green 1/8" stereo jacks, a Peavey PV8 mixer for condensor mikes requiring phatom power, some cables and an outdoor yard with a block wall behind the UUT to boost the bass like indoor walls do. Its quiet out there 0000 to 0400 if the garbage truck is not emptying bins. I have a condensor mike with XLR connector and a camera stand as a mike stand. USB mikes IMHO mess up the timing with variable latency.
This. The cheapest route is not to design a speaker and find what you want out in the world.
@Godi without some dsp and time delays adding speakers can just start canceling the ones you have. There is no perfect speaker. Buy one for the midrange and swap it out. Enjoy them for what they are.
The only info is bullet points from manufacturers. Real measurements are how to make choices. Also, before getting to that, simulations in something like virtuixcad can answer questions before you even buy a driver just using the SD and baffle size.
If you do want to be Frankenstein then you need DSP and to play around with virtuixcad. Plus measurement mic, mic stand, and usb mic interface with a loopback (you can get used Scarlett 2i2 on ebay). All of this costs more than buying some local used passive box with a 5-6" mid.
These Tannoys should be 92 dB/W/m while Fostex is 98,5 dB/W/m and you have only cap in series with tweeter. No attenuator to match efficiency.
On the other side they are placed on the floor against the wall which boosts the bass.
Plus additional sub (if I understood well) which probably boosts the bass as well.
So I think the main issue here is uneven response with some serious midrange dip.
Another issue is unknown woofer.
Since you don't have measuring gear, at least you should do is simple freq. sweep of the woofer by ear. You can use some of online sweep generators thru laptop or smartphone.
Disconnect the tweeter and sweep from 1kHz to say 7kHz at low level. That will show you how high the woofer can go before rollof.
Bear in mind that sweep at constant volume sounds uneven to human ear, so this method is not good to evaluate tonal balance, just HF rollof of the woofer.
My first speaker build was Visaton Fiesta 20.
It have very similar tweeter Visaton DHT 9. Recomended crossing freq. is 5kHz and up. But in that design, Visaton crossed it at 3,5kHz 2nd order with 6dB atennuator without problems.
The point is, you need to attenuate the Fostex to match the woofer efficiency and that will increase power handling. So with 2nd order x-over you can lower the crossing to 3,5kHz just like DHT 9.
If frequency sweep of the woofer shows it can go to at least 3kHz you don't need to go 3-way.
Better x-over giving more balanced response should do the job.
On the other side they are placed on the floor against the wall which boosts the bass.
Plus additional sub (if I understood well) which probably boosts the bass as well.
So I think the main issue here is uneven response with some serious midrange dip.
Another issue is unknown woofer.
Since you don't have measuring gear, at least you should do is simple freq. sweep of the woofer by ear. You can use some of online sweep generators thru laptop or smartphone.
Disconnect the tweeter and sweep from 1kHz to say 7kHz at low level. That will show you how high the woofer can go before rollof.
Bear in mind that sweep at constant volume sounds uneven to human ear, so this method is not good to evaluate tonal balance, just HF rollof of the woofer.
My first speaker build was Visaton Fiesta 20.
It have very similar tweeter Visaton DHT 9. Recomended crossing freq. is 5kHz and up. But in that design, Visaton crossed it at 3,5kHz 2nd order with 6dB atennuator without problems.
The point is, you need to attenuate the Fostex to match the woofer efficiency and that will increase power handling. So with 2nd order x-over you can lower the crossing to 3,5kHz just like DHT 9.
If frequency sweep of the woofer shows it can go to at least 3kHz you don't need to go 3-way.
Better x-over giving more balanced response should do the job.
Just order a pair of Pro Audio Mid/Bass 10'' Eminence 10A. I made this selection for the frequency range of the 10A witch is 57 Hz - 4.5 kHz and Sensitivity 95.6 db. This should match my Fostex FT17H who deliver 5kHz to 35 kHz @ 96db. I also select a simple 2nd Order Butterworth set at 4750 Hertz.
Hopefully, I will be happy with that. I should have the strong mid and the presence as I wish ! The bass frequency of the Eminence is on the low side, but I have a sub witch will cover the deep bass frequency. My sub is a Energy XL S8 frequence range (theoric) 29 to 100 Hz.
Hopefully, I will be happy with that. I should have the strong mid and the presence as I wish ! The bass frequency of the Eminence is on the low side, but I have a sub witch will cover the deep bass frequency. My sub is a Energy XL S8 frequence range (theoric) 29 to 100 Hz.
Attachments
The spec sheet shows the impedance of the woofer to be above 20 Ohms at your selected crossover point and your cap and inductor values are for 8 Ohms.
In post #16 After the numerical data
In the last Pic, the graphic shows FR and Impedance.
Magnifying It, It should appear max peak at resonance frequency (Fs) and, usually at the left....or right, the impedance scale
BTW nice choice...I Guess...I would have spent 100 more in some Fancy italian speakers, but still...same for crossover: I would Copy and existing design utilizing the Delta, use the fostex as suggested, more protected by resistor(s) and steeper filters
In the last Pic, the graphic shows FR and Impedance.
Magnifying It, It should appear max peak at resonance frequency (Fs) and, usually at the left....or right, the impedance scale
BTW nice choice...I Guess...I would have spent 100 more in some Fancy italian speakers, but still...same for crossover: I would Copy and existing design utilizing the Delta, use the fostex as suggested, more protected by resistor(s) and steeper filters
Last edited:
Well, since the first post, I'm asking for recommendation, suggestion, the only thing I see is criticism ! My goal was only to save my cabinets and the Fostex super tweeters that I love so much.
I'm not a doctor, I'm not a sound engineer, I'm not a speaker builder specialist ... but I have build since 20 years civil and military aircraft. The community here seem to be more Trolls than helper. If my crossover selection is not right ... it's easy to correct.
But I need help, not criticism.
I'm not a doctor, I'm not a sound engineer, I'm not a speaker builder specialist ... but I have build since 20 years civil and military aircraft. The community here seem to be more Trolls than helper. If my crossover selection is not right ... it's easy to correct.
But I need help, not criticism.