Hello, looking for advice on my next set of speakers.
System electronics is a NAD 7125 receiver (similar amp to the famous NAD 3020), vintage restored Sony CDP-101 CD player, AKAI GX-625 reel to reel and Pioneer PL12D turntable - some middle of the road classic 80's hi-fi, listening to old rock, Dire Straights, Leonard Cohen etc.
The sound is "satisfactory" to my 60 year old ears through a pair of well travelled Mission model 70 (original, not the MK II) speakers, now maybe 40 years old. Believing the speakers are the weak link, and pondering if to update & replace them. I am from Europe originally, and OK with a "bass lite" sound, liking clear midrange and crisp treble. Find US speakers too "bassey", and try to avoid Chinees plastic "rubbish".
Looking for an upgrade with European speakers, second hand, but newer than 1980's, with a budget of $300 to $400 ish.
Replacements for the Missions that come to mind from reviews are the B&W CDM-1 SE or NT, or Focal Cobalt 806, the 806S preferably. Like to keep to a similar size of ~15" high by 8" to 10" wide, and 8" to 12" deep for use with existing stands. Either no port or front ported for room position flexibility. "Music" room is 11' by 16' with 8' ceilings - it's my man cave/spare bedroom with speaker positioning non ideal.
Buying on eBay clearly not "demo-able", and hard to say "no" if have travelled for a Craigslist advert. So have to buy somewhat "blind" and on recommendations.
Appreciate ideas on the suitability of the B&W CDM-1, Focal Cobalt 806S, or other European classic speaker suggestions, thanks floridaclear
System electronics is a NAD 7125 receiver (similar amp to the famous NAD 3020), vintage restored Sony CDP-101 CD player, AKAI GX-625 reel to reel and Pioneer PL12D turntable - some middle of the road classic 80's hi-fi, listening to old rock, Dire Straights, Leonard Cohen etc.
The sound is "satisfactory" to my 60 year old ears through a pair of well travelled Mission model 70 (original, not the MK II) speakers, now maybe 40 years old. Believing the speakers are the weak link, and pondering if to update & replace them. I am from Europe originally, and OK with a "bass lite" sound, liking clear midrange and crisp treble. Find US speakers too "bassey", and try to avoid Chinees plastic "rubbish".
Looking for an upgrade with European speakers, second hand, but newer than 1980's, with a budget of $300 to $400 ish.
Replacements for the Missions that come to mind from reviews are the B&W CDM-1 SE or NT, or Focal Cobalt 806, the 806S preferably. Like to keep to a similar size of ~15" high by 8" to 10" wide, and 8" to 12" deep for use with existing stands. Either no port or front ported for room position flexibility. "Music" room is 11' by 16' with 8' ceilings - it's my man cave/spare bedroom with speaker positioning non ideal.
Buying on eBay clearly not "demo-able", and hard to say "no" if have travelled for a Craigslist advert. So have to buy somewhat "blind" and on recommendations.
Appreciate ideas on the suitability of the B&W CDM-1, Focal Cobalt 806S, or other European classic speaker suggestions, thanks floridaclear
Since the original Mission 70 dates from 1983/5, it may bring them back to life if you replace the ageing electrolytic capacitors that Mission employed in the crossovers with new, fresh electrolytics.
If you have never undertaken such a task then we can guide you through the replacement process.
First thing to do would be to post a photo of the crossover circuit (it may be mounted on the rear of the input terminal plate shown in the attachment) and to identify the microfarad (uF) value of the capacitors.
A capacitor refresh would certainly be much cheaper than replacing your Missions, and worth trying before going down the replacement route.
If you have never undertaken such a task then we can guide you through the replacement process.
First thing to do would be to post a photo of the crossover circuit (it may be mounted on the rear of the input terminal plate shown in the attachment) and to identify the microfarad (uF) value of the capacitors.
A capacitor refresh would certainly be much cheaper than replacing your Missions, and worth trying before going down the replacement route.
Attachments
Hi, thanks for the quick reply, I am capable of replacing the electrolytic(s) in the crossover. Was more wondering if something like the B&W CDM-1 or Focal Cobalt 806 from the early 2000's that retailed for about ~$1k (maybe $300/400 now) would be a "tremendous" step up from my Mission 70's from the early 1980's (at maybe $200 a pair new ?). I am the original owner of the Missions and they have followed me round the world - so have sentimental value..... but the financial value/price of newer possible replacements mentioned above suggest they would be noticeably better.
Reviews of the B&W and Focals are "glowing", while the Mission 70 in original version not so great, so I'm exploring the upgrade idea. Realizing the only way of really finding out would be to buy a pair ! . Am looking for advice, maybe someone has done something similar ?. Thanks floridaclear
Reviews of the B&W and Focals are "glowing", while the Mission 70 in original version not so great, so I'm exploring the upgrade idea. Realizing the only way of really finding out would be to buy a pair ! . Am looking for advice, maybe someone has done something similar ?. Thanks floridaclear
Just thought I'd give you an option. 😎
Beware of falling into the "it's more expensive so must sound better" trap.
I've found a quote from Sound on Sound relating to the B&W CDM1 that says, "Had I been given a £300 pair of speakers to review that sounded this good, I would have had no hesitation in recommending them, but given the actual price, I feel the sound quality doesn't quite make the grade."
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/bw-cdm1
I don't know if the SE version is better value.
Beware of falling into the "it's more expensive so must sound better" trap.
I've found a quote from Sound on Sound relating to the B&W CDM1 that says, "Had I been given a £300 pair of speakers to review that sounded this good, I would have had no hesitation in recommending them, but given the actual price, I feel the sound quality doesn't quite make the grade."
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/bw-cdm1
I don't know if the SE version is better value.
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Thanks for the interesting link. If I go the CDM-1 route the newer/improved SE and NT look like the better choice over the original version reviewed in the link. Also have to make sure if I look for new speakers to get a "deal", incase the (40 year !) old Mission 70's "shine" in a direct A-B listening test, and I have to on-sell the "newer but no better" acquisition. If others have advice would appreciate it, thanks floridaclear
I don't know how far you are in DIYS, but if I have a pair of speakers that does not match my idea of sound, while being optically pleasent, I consider changing chassis and x-over for a well made kit. Don't get me wrong, a "kit" is a finished construction, you do not have to develop anything with an unknown result. You only build the cabinet or in your, case modfiy an existing box.
That way for 400$ and some limited work, you should get a state of the art 2-way speaker, matching very expensive commercial products.
Volume and size have to match the plan of such a kit, while +-10% difference is usually no big problem.
If you keep the cover on the speakers anyway, there are no great problems to fit something like a 170mm woofer and a 25mm dome tweeter. If needed a vent can be put on the rear.
As you are in the US, Dayton Audio is the first adress that comes to my mind for high quality, reasonable priced chassis and kit's.
Something like that should fit: https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/smokey_waveguide_en.htm
Even as this is from Germany, you can buy the drivers (cheaper I suppose) at PartsExpress and copy the x-over. "German" sound should please your taste, as you usually don't find boomy speaker constructions there.
That way for 400$ and some limited work, you should get a state of the art 2-way speaker, matching very expensive commercial products.
Volume and size have to match the plan of such a kit, while +-10% difference is usually no big problem.
If you keep the cover on the speakers anyway, there are no great problems to fit something like a 170mm woofer and a 25mm dome tweeter. If needed a vent can be put on the rear.
As you are in the US, Dayton Audio is the first adress that comes to my mind for high quality, reasonable priced chassis and kit's.
Something like that should fit: https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/smokey_waveguide_en.htm
Even as this is from Germany, you can buy the drivers (cheaper I suppose) at PartsExpress and copy the x-over. "German" sound should please your taste, as you usually don't find boomy speaker constructions there.
If the following review is to be relied upon then perhaps you should be upgrading to the Mission 70 MkIIs!
https://www.whathifi.com/features/old-speakers-vs-new-speakers-how-do-they-compare
https://www.whathifi.com/features/old-speakers-vs-new-speakers-how-do-they-compare
Boston Acoustics made very good little two ways for 300 USD brandnew in the 90s... should be very cheap second hand there : 150 perhaps ?
Some Kef column from the late 90s and early 2000s are cheap here second hand in EC, but do not know on the US market.
Paul Carmody diy page for cheap goood sounding two ways is a reference, Jeff Bagby, etc : great choice in US trough the drivers shop : Part-Express. Sometimes they sell flat pack : the front baffle is messy to do. https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/bookshelf-speakers/classix-ii
Also : https://www.diysoundgroup.com/
The idea of recaping is a good idea. Mission's were musical for the price. If the tweeter was ferrofluided, such units are cheap new.
Some Kef column from the late 90s and early 2000s are cheap here second hand in EC, but do not know on the US market.
Paul Carmody diy page for cheap goood sounding two ways is a reference, Jeff Bagby, etc : great choice in US trough the drivers shop : Part-Express. Sometimes they sell flat pack : the front baffle is messy to do. https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/bookshelf-speakers/classix-ii
Also : https://www.diysoundgroup.com/
The idea of recaping is a good idea. Mission's were musical for the price. If the tweeter was ferrofluided, such units are cheap new.
Thanks for the replies.
@ Turbowatch2 Great idea on the DIYS, maybe I could keep my Mission box, in decent shape, and swap out the 40 year driver and tweeter with modern Focal replacements if available ?.... French speakers in a British box for a post Brexit world !. OR as a wild idea, visit a car breakers yard and try to find midrange and tweeter units from a crashed luxury car like a BMW or Jaguar ? (no upmarket French cars are sold in the US) - wonder if anyone has tried that ?. I'm into recycle/reuse/repurpose...
@ Galu Yes it was the whathifi review that made me think my original Mission 70's were the weak link in my system, though I've nothing to compare it to.... I've recently retired so now time to tinker. There are several M70 II on ebay, but in the UK, so the shipping to Florida and probable import duties makes that route uneconomic, as well as inheriting someone else's discard. The low price on ebay, even for the Mk II, suggests to me the market does not value them.
@ diyiggy & Moondog55 Good point on the US speakers. I would not know where to start on a US brand, and prefer European things (my tool box is based on Facom hand tools, Solartron & Philips electronic gear etc....). The Classix II design looks interesting - thanks for the link.
@ Turbowatch2 Great idea on the DIYS, maybe I could keep my Mission box, in decent shape, and swap out the 40 year driver and tweeter with modern Focal replacements if available ?.... French speakers in a British box for a post Brexit world !. OR as a wild idea, visit a car breakers yard and try to find midrange and tweeter units from a crashed luxury car like a BMW or Jaguar ? (no upmarket French cars are sold in the US) - wonder if anyone has tried that ?. I'm into recycle/reuse/repurpose...
@ Galu Yes it was the whathifi review that made me think my original Mission 70's were the weak link in my system, though I've nothing to compare it to.... I've recently retired so now time to tinker. There are several M70 II on ebay, but in the UK, so the shipping to Florida and probable import duties makes that route uneconomic, as well as inheriting someone else's discard. The low price on ebay, even for the Mk II, suggests to me the market does not value them.
@ diyiggy & Moondog55 Good point on the US speakers. I would not know where to start on a US brand, and prefer European things (my tool box is based on Facom hand tools, Solartron & Philips electronic gear etc....). The Classix II design looks interesting - thanks for the link.
Having now got the measure of the Mission 70 speakers, I can't see that you can fail to obtain an improvement by replacing them with the likes of the Focal-JMLab Cobalt 806S.
... just change the serie cap, the one in // being ok (they are made by SCR) and check by eyes the tweeter surround.
Please do not fall for the trap you could simply take some speakers, put them in a box and be happy. Even if you get the world best tweeter and woofer, you will not finish off with an even mediocre sounding box. Sorry to tell you.
The x-over is the most important thing and each has to be designed for the specific speaker components. Togeteher with the size of the cabinets baffle, as sound and radiation have to be matched to it and the orientation and distances between the chassis. There is no "universal" x-over, even as you can buy them. They do not work.
So definately a strong "no!" to your ideas.
To be succesfull with such an upgrade you have to find a kit (tweeter, woofer, x-over AND build plan) that matches you cabinet quite well. As it is from the most common shelf speaker variety, this is quite easy.
Be prepared to find in a 200$ kit the components that will match a 1000$ or even more expensive finished speaker. Such an actual speaker kit competes with todays industrial product of this price class, leaving a 20 year old, once famous 2000$ pair far behind.
Getting some old, once hyped speakers, from the digital junk yards like eBay is no alternative, but far less promising. I can tell you honestly that reputated vintage speakers are ridiculous overpriced. To many people want to have the then to expensive dreams of their youth, pushing prices.
If you are able to change the capacitors inside your boxes, you basically go the same way as if you fit anything new from a kit.
Be happy if you can recycle the cabinets, this is a great win and doable in your category.
If you really go this way, seek advice BEFORE you buy or change anything.
Measure, make pictures and ask here. If you have never build a laudspeaker, your experience and knowledge are zero. Keep that in mind.
The x-over is the most important thing and each has to be designed for the specific speaker components. Togeteher with the size of the cabinets baffle, as sound and radiation have to be matched to it and the orientation and distances between the chassis. There is no "universal" x-over, even as you can buy them. They do not work.
So definately a strong "no!" to your ideas.
To be succesfull with such an upgrade you have to find a kit (tweeter, woofer, x-over AND build plan) that matches you cabinet quite well. As it is from the most common shelf speaker variety, this is quite easy.
Be prepared to find in a 200$ kit the components that will match a 1000$ or even more expensive finished speaker. Such an actual speaker kit competes with todays industrial product of this price class, leaving a 20 year old, once famous 2000$ pair far behind.
Getting some old, once hyped speakers, from the digital junk yards like eBay is no alternative, but far less promising. I can tell you honestly that reputated vintage speakers are ridiculous overpriced. To many people want to have the then to expensive dreams of their youth, pushing prices.
If you are able to change the capacitors inside your boxes, you basically go the same way as if you fit anything new from a kit.
Be happy if you can recycle the cabinets, this is a great win and doable in your category.
If you really go this way, seek advice BEFORE you buy or change anything.
Measure, make pictures and ask here. If you have never build a laudspeaker, your experience and knowledge are zero. Keep that in mind.
The larger of the Kef 'Sixes' series using the coaxial drivers are quite vice-free, if a little dry and picky of positioning. I find it a very polite and unfatiguing speaker to live with, and well within your budget, if possibly a little 'young' for your system!
I found the Kef Blade dry too (first serie heard in a huge room with Moon electronic)...a little razor like if I dare...
My daily is also mid and tweet metal but sweeter with no harshness (filter? Beteer power response at listening position .)... I did find the imagind wax not good but surmise room dependance and the layout was bad from my memory (mismatch center sweet spot from the hifi shop that was responsible of the demo.). Finally it had a lot of transparency clearness details but not tonal correct... and more if you think of the price.
To be fair it is saying just a little about the loudspeaker and more about the poorness of the listening layout imo.
Edit : notice than the kef coax Blade flagship has not the same aluminium material but a mix with a better damping.... said the Kef adgent whom I talked with.
My daily is also mid and tweet metal but sweeter with no harshness (filter? Beteer power response at listening position .)... I did find the imagind wax not good but surmise room dependance and the layout was bad from my memory (mismatch center sweet spot from the hifi shop that was responsible of the demo.). Finally it had a lot of transparency clearness details but not tonal correct... and more if you think of the price.
To be fair it is saying just a little about the loudspeaker and more about the poorness of the listening layout imo.
Edit : notice than the kef coax Blade flagship has not the same aluminium material but a mix with a better damping.... said the Kef adgent whom I talked with.
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Thanks all for the great advice, reinforcing the idea that my 40 year old Mission 70's really could do with an upgrade.
The cabinets are in reasonable shape, nicely fit my custom home made stands, I would like to keep them. The Missions externally dimensions are 8.5" by 8.5" (strangely square ?) by 14" tall, no port, (7 1/2" square x 12 1/2" internally). I opened one up (first time ever) and see a 6 1/8" diameter Mission model 70 S main unit, 3 1/2" Vifa tweeter, and simple cross over with Bennic 4.7MFD bipolar capacitor (so not electrolytic ?), and an inductor, please see pictures.
The main driver is wired straight across the posts, the tweeter in series with the capacitor, and paralleled by the inductor.
The holes in the front panel, behind the cloth, are 5 3/4" for the main unit, and 2" diameter for the tweeter placed below in the cabinet.
Would appreciate advice on midrange, tweeter and cross over replacements, preferably from Focal - thanks floridaclear
The cabinets are in reasonable shape, nicely fit my custom home made stands, I would like to keep them. The Missions externally dimensions are 8.5" by 8.5" (strangely square ?) by 14" tall, no port, (7 1/2" square x 12 1/2" internally). I opened one up (first time ever) and see a 6 1/8" diameter Mission model 70 S main unit, 3 1/2" Vifa tweeter, and simple cross over with Bennic 4.7MFD bipolar capacitor (so not electrolytic ?), and an inductor, please see pictures.
The main driver is wired straight across the posts, the tweeter in series with the capacitor, and paralleled by the inductor.
The holes in the front panel, behind the cloth, are 5 3/4" for the main unit, and 2" diameter for the tweeter placed below in the cabinet.
Would appreciate advice on midrange, tweeter and cross over replacements, preferably from Focal - thanks floridaclear
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Electrolytic cap. Start with replacing that with something else.
As for the rest, as already stated you simply can't do that and expect it to work properly, even if you could do Focal still sell to the public?
Your stands do look a tad low. How far above the ground is the tweeter, which looks like a D19 and a tweeter I personally dislike
As for the rest, as already stated you simply can't do that and expect it to work properly, even if you could do Focal still sell to the public?
Your stands do look a tad low. How far above the ground is the tweeter, which looks like a D19 and a tweeter I personally dislike
Could you please clarify? If the sound is "satisfactory" what do you want to improve?
Mission did not make their own drivers. From your most recent photos, my guess is that the Mission 70 is also a Vifa unit.. If all you want is to refurbish the Missions it should not be too difficult to determine the Vifa part numbers (there nay be something under that mission label) and buy the modern replacements. Vifa is now part of Tymphany and their drivers are available in the US from Parts Express.
Note that you can find some glowing opinions of the Mission 70 and Mission 70 Mk2:
The main difference between the Mk2 and the original was a more sophisticated crossover circuit of which, unfortunately, I can find no component details.
I would try replacing that tired, old bipolar electrolytic capacitor with a fresh, new one. You may be pleasantly surprised by the difference that makes - or maybe not! 🙃
Of course, flowery prose aside, a modern budget speaker will outshine the old budget Mission 70.
Here's an off-piste idea. Why not put a small modern, budget speaker inside an emptied out Mission 70 box (front baffle opened up to suit)? That will give you the best of both worlds - a modern sound with a retro appearance.
Just a thought! 🙂
The main difference between the Mk2 and the original was a more sophisticated crossover circuit of which, unfortunately, I can find no component details.
I would try replacing that tired, old bipolar electrolytic capacitor with a fresh, new one. You may be pleasantly surprised by the difference that makes - or maybe not! 🙃
Of course, flowery prose aside, a modern budget speaker will outshine the old budget Mission 70.
Here's an off-piste idea. Why not put a small modern, budget speaker inside an emptied out Mission 70 box (front baffle opened up to suit)? That will give you the best of both worlds - a modern sound with a retro appearance.
Just a thought! 🙂