Hi all,
Talk me out of this? I'm just enamored with the idea of a small foot print "tower" that is taller with lots of 8" drivers in it. Instead of a big box, a tall skinny tower. The small foot print is just easier to place in various rooms. Visually it's fun to see. It allows the use of lots of inexpensive drivers. And generally doesn't need much power to get loud. But would it need to be a sealed enclosure? Or ported? All the subs sharing one volume? Or make groups of 2 in their own cubbies in the enclosure? 4 to 8 drivers so that wiring loads is easier?
I tried modeling some options in WinISD but I'm not sure if it handles real world what happens with multiple drivers in one volume or not? Any other options that are more realistic?
Overall bad idea? Better to just build two 10's and stack them instead?
Purpose would be music mostly.
Very best,
Talk me out of this? I'm just enamored with the idea of a small foot print "tower" that is taller with lots of 8" drivers in it. Instead of a big box, a tall skinny tower. The small foot print is just easier to place in various rooms. Visually it's fun to see. It allows the use of lots of inexpensive drivers. And generally doesn't need much power to get loud. But would it need to be a sealed enclosure? Or ported? All the subs sharing one volume? Or make groups of 2 in their own cubbies in the enclosure? 4 to 8 drivers so that wiring loads is easier?
I tried modeling some options in WinISD but I'm not sure if it handles real world what happens with multiple drivers in one volume or not? Any other options that are more realistic?
Overall bad idea? Better to just build two 10's and stack them instead?
Purpose would be music mostly.
Very best,
It’s a good idea if you can buy in bulk. Three or four 8” woofers per side looks pretty nice.
My plan is triple 8” 8 ohm woofers in parallel for a 2.2 ohm load, in a cabinet 24cm wide.
until I look at the price- three 8” invariably costs more than one 12” woofer, but the volume displacement and ultimately low bass SPL capability is lower. The 12” only needs 1 hole to cut and a simpler box.
So less output than a pair of 12” woofers. But higher cost in drivers, and more work on building.
But 11cm slimmer cabinet and probably 100% preferable to everyone I ask.
Trade-offs.
Mock-up:
My plan is triple 8” 8 ohm woofers in parallel for a 2.2 ohm load, in a cabinet 24cm wide.
until I look at the price- three 8” invariably costs more than one 12” woofer, but the volume displacement and ultimately low bass SPL capability is lower. The 12” only needs 1 hole to cut and a simpler box.
So less output than a pair of 12” woofers. But higher cost in drivers, and more work on building.
But 11cm slimmer cabinet and probably 100% preferable to everyone I ask.
Trade-offs.
Mock-up:
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Greets!
Been there, done that and as the line increases the coherent bandwidth (BW) shrinks for a given listening distance (Lp) due to increasing ctc driver spacing and why they normally either use one or more smaller drivers and/or tweeters or use 'shading' XOs, which now is easier/cheaper with DSP. A White Paper on line arrays.
CBT line array
Yes, if the drivers are the same, then just one big box which can be sealed or vented depending on the driver(s) used.
You'll need Hornresp or similar pro designer software.
Hornresp thread
Personally prefer 'infinite' corner arrays, i.e., one that's at least ~0.707x a room corner's height, centered vertically.
One pro's infinite array
Infinite line array analysis
Been there, done that and as the line increases the coherent bandwidth (BW) shrinks for a given listening distance (Lp) due to increasing ctc driver spacing and why they normally either use one or more smaller drivers and/or tweeters or use 'shading' XOs, which now is easier/cheaper with DSP. A White Paper on line arrays.
CBT line array
Yes, if the drivers are the same, then just one big box which can be sealed or vented depending on the driver(s) used.
You'll need Hornresp or similar pro designer software.
Hornresp thread
Personally prefer 'infinite' corner arrays, i.e., one that's at least ~0.707x a room corner's height, centered vertically.
One pro's infinite array
Infinite line array analysis
Sometimes good WAF means more money and effort
I came across what seems to be the perfect driver for this application. Four drivers an each in its own dedicated ported volume. Each driver tuned 20hz higher than the next, starting at 40hz, 60, 80, 100
Why, just to mess around and see what would happen 🙂
Link to driver
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32825973346.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.6f7c38daNw1IBm&mp=1
Why, just to mess around and see what would happen 🙂
Link to driver
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32825973346.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.6f7c38daNw1IBm&mp=1
Hrm,
So do all these line arrays apply to this application with 8 inch subwoofers in a line? We see plenty of dual driver subs. In car audio we see lots of drivers all over the place in the cabinets. But in home audio, we mostly see separate subs for reasons we know about. In this case, I'm thinking about smaller 8 inch drivers, heck even 6.5" drivers would be cool, in a tall skinny enclosure and lots of them to have a smaller foot print, taller for the cab volume, to operate as a competent sub. Not looking to get 20hz performance, but let's say 25hz F3 and strong 30hz and up? I'm not sure how to model this and if WinISD is appropriate for 4+ drivers in a single ported enclosure or sealed?
I don't see a lot of subs with more than two drivers. I imagine there's good reason for this. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. Just thinking of something fun and a bit different while filling a niche with a tall skinny box. I would think that with more drivers there would be less power needs and they could extend deeper with fairly good cabinet volume. Should be able to make a tall 6.5" driver based sub or 8" driver based sub that is a small line tower? Again I see plenty of towers with 2 bass drivers out there. What happens when you go from 2 to 4 that causes problems?
Very best,
So do all these line arrays apply to this application with 8 inch subwoofers in a line? We see plenty of dual driver subs. In car audio we see lots of drivers all over the place in the cabinets. But in home audio, we mostly see separate subs for reasons we know about. In this case, I'm thinking about smaller 8 inch drivers, heck even 6.5" drivers would be cool, in a tall skinny enclosure and lots of them to have a smaller foot print, taller for the cab volume, to operate as a competent sub. Not looking to get 20hz performance, but let's say 25hz F3 and strong 30hz and up? I'm not sure how to model this and if WinISD is appropriate for 4+ drivers in a single ported enclosure or sealed?
I don't see a lot of subs with more than two drivers. I imagine there's good reason for this. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. Just thinking of something fun and a bit different while filling a niche with a tall skinny box. I would think that with more drivers there would be less power needs and they could extend deeper with fairly good cabinet volume. Should be able to make a tall 6.5" driver based sub or 8" driver based sub that is a small line tower? Again I see plenty of towers with 2 bass drivers out there. What happens when you go from 2 to 4 that causes problems?
Very best,
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I don't know what particular driver TS parameters would suit, but there have been many tapped horn subs built over the years with multiple smaller drivers versus larger-driver traditional alignments. They can be tall and slim.
Here's some drivers I was eyeballing:
Goldwood GW-S650 6.5"
https://www.parts-express.com/Goldwood-GW-S650-4-6-1-2-Poly-Cone-Woofer-4-Ohm-290-308
GRS 6PR-8 6.5"
https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-6PR-8-6-1-2-Poly-Cone-Rubber-Surround-Woofer-292-426
Dayton GF180 6.5"
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-GF180-4-6-1-2-Glass-Fiber-Cone-Woofer-4-Ohm-295-417
GRS 8SW-4 8"
https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-8SW-4-8-Poly-Cone-Subwoofer-4-Ohm-292-480
Pretty inexpensive drivers. Was thinking if I modeled 4 of them. I figure if a tall tower speaker typically used as a main with two 6.5" or similar woofers can do fairly decent bass, a dedicated tower designed and ported for bass would do even better and with two more drivers (4 total) it should be able to perform even better at lower frequency? Hit 30hz in a room, F3 just below 30hz?
I can model two of them, like two 8's, like the DCS205 (Dayton classics) and get what I want. $60 a driver, so I'd use less.
I can't seem to do much with these inexpensive drivers, their xmax is severely limiting in the 2mm range. Otherwise, they would be fun to work with.
Very best,
Goldwood GW-S650 6.5"
https://www.parts-express.com/Goldwood-GW-S650-4-6-1-2-Poly-Cone-Woofer-4-Ohm-290-308
GRS 6PR-8 6.5"
https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-6PR-8-6-1-2-Poly-Cone-Rubber-Surround-Woofer-292-426
Dayton GF180 6.5"
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-GF180-4-6-1-2-Glass-Fiber-Cone-Woofer-4-Ohm-295-417
GRS 8SW-4 8"
https://www.parts-express.com/GRS-8SW-4-8-Poly-Cone-Subwoofer-4-Ohm-292-480
Pretty inexpensive drivers. Was thinking if I modeled 4 of them. I figure if a tall tower speaker typically used as a main with two 6.5" or similar woofers can do fairly decent bass, a dedicated tower designed and ported for bass would do even better and with two more drivers (4 total) it should be able to perform even better at lower frequency? Hit 30hz in a room, F3 just below 30hz?
I can model two of them, like two 8's, like the DCS205 (Dayton classics) and get what I want. $60 a driver, so I'd use less.
I can't seem to do much with these inexpensive drivers, their xmax is severely limiting in the 2mm range. Otherwise, they would be fun to work with.
Very best,
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It is a good idea. And i just happen to have open a new set of designs from Scott, where one of the boxes mimiks your inquiry.
An early teaser.
dave
An early teaser.
dave
I'm in a similar position, having picked up 16 x 8" Tannoy and 32 x Peerless 6.1/2" drivers in deals I could not miss! I am quite partial to trying a slot loaded open baffle for a bit of fun, or just a large number of individual sealed enclosures to scatter about the room. Craziest of all is a 'sit-in' sized horn built into the pitched roof of my Victorian warehouse. All just for a laugh and, a little educational to boot hopefully, but if you want to play safe and simple, a tower as Dave suggests must be the way to go. I always wonder about time smearing from such widely spaced sources, but have never found any good data regarding this...
Good luck and have fun!
Interesting,
That tower looks like it has 1 driver in it's own enclosure, ported, within a tower so its essentially 4 separate enclosures in one tower. I suppose this allows true coupling and colocating gains? It would be neat to put +/- terminals on the back of each one so that you can wire it however you want back there without opening the box or dealing with anything internal once built. Also makes dealing with any failed drivers over time easier from a wiring stand point.
For modeling purposes, would that tower basically just be modeled as the single internal enclosure and then the 2nd one just adds +3db SPL and then the other two add +3db more SPL (at least), I realize in a room or near a wall in lower frequencies it could be more, but just from a modeling standpoint, it would basically be +6db SPL over the modeled single driver enclosure inside?
Very best,
That tower looks like it has 1 driver in it's own enclosure, ported, within a tower so its essentially 4 separate enclosures in one tower. I suppose this allows true coupling and colocating gains? It would be neat to put +/- terminals on the back of each one so that you can wire it however you want back there without opening the box or dealing with anything internal once built. Also makes dealing with any failed drivers over time easier from a wiring stand point.
For modeling purposes, would that tower basically just be modeled as the single internal enclosure and then the 2nd one just adds +3db SPL and then the other two add +3db more SPL (at least), I realize in a room or near a wall in lower frequencies it could be more, but just from a modeling standpoint, it would basically be +6db SPL over the modeled single driver enclosure inside?
Very best,
That is a good description. At the frequencies involved the woofers act as a single unit.
If i had multiple woofers i would do something push-push. An early illustartion of a (slot-loaded, predayes Nelson’e by a decade or so.) OB woofer array.
https://www.t-linespeakers.org/FALL/dipole.html
The fellow i did this for had some 40 6.5” VIFA-made PSB woofers (even after i bought 20 off him)
dave
Hrm,
I wonder if I could do something like that with smaller 6.5" drivers that are inexpensive and just do like 4 of them. Goal being good in room performance to 30hz basically in a tall skinny enclosure, like a tower. I'll try and model something ported or sealed with various 6.5" drivers to see what I can do. I may even try to model some 5.25" drivers depending on the enclosure volume per driver and price, if I could do 8 of those maybe. Something fun. Will start looking at smaller drivers and model individual enclosures that would go into a larger single cabinet like above.
I compared of course to just doing a single 10" or 12" sub in a 2.5 net cubic foot enclosure ported at 25hz and it would work, but it's at least 15 inches x 14 inches x 30 inches. A small stubby fat tower. But I have plenty of 12"~15" driver subs. Looking to play with little drivers for fun and to simply do something different.
Very best,
I wonder if I could do something like that with smaller 6.5" drivers that are inexpensive and just do like 4 of them. Goal being good in room performance to 30hz basically in a tall skinny enclosure, like a tower. I'll try and model something ported or sealed with various 6.5" drivers to see what I can do. I may even try to model some 5.25" drivers depending on the enclosure volume per driver and price, if I could do 8 of those maybe. Something fun. Will start looking at smaller drivers and model individual enclosures that would go into a larger single cabinet like above.
I compared of course to just doing a single 10" or 12" sub in a 2.5 net cubic foot enclosure ported at 25hz and it would work, but it's at least 15 inches x 14 inches x 30 inches. A small stubby fat tower. But I have plenty of 12"~15" driver subs. Looking to play with little drivers for fun and to simply do something different.
Very best,
Of course! Doesn't matter the driver size, though for strictly 'sub' duty the driver ctc spacing only needs to be based on the XO point/slope, so doesn't have to have the line full of drivers unless you want the extra efficiency = less power required for a given peak SPL.
Again, you ideally need a TL/horn design program to do high aspect ratio (width x depth Vs height) cab alignments regardless of height to accurately design a vent and if an extremely high aspect ratio there's its eigenmodes that will limit the XO point/slope options if not heavily damped, lowering peak efficiency/SPL. In short, we're always trading efficiency for bandwidth (BW).
Hrm,
This is not the first time the TL/horn proposal has come up for a skinny "sub" with smaller driver. I'm not opposed to it. If it means I could get a nice little sub with a 6.5" driver or 8" driver even, though I admit I like the idea of a little 6.5" driver or two doing the work, in a TL or horn that would be neat. With one driver, it makes it easier for me to power and build. So probably a good 8" or 6.5" driver in the enclosure and just build TL/horn. I have never done that nor learned to use hornresp, but I would also be happy to just follow a pre-made plan I'm sure someone else has already done plenty of 8" TL/horns that can do 25~30hz.
I would love to know if it's possible to do a skinny tall TL/horn that will do 30hz to 80hz with a 6.5" driver that is good quality on 100~300 watts at 4ohm with a smaller foot print, just something taller but skinny and not too deep.
Very best,
This is not the first time the TL/horn proposal has come up for a skinny "sub" with smaller driver. I'm not opposed to it. If it means I could get a nice little sub with a 6.5" driver or 8" driver even, though I admit I like the idea of a little 6.5" driver or two doing the work, in a TL or horn that would be neat. With one driver, it makes it easier for me to power and build. So probably a good 8" or 6.5" driver in the enclosure and just build TL/horn. I have never done that nor learned to use hornresp, but I would also be happy to just follow a pre-made plan I'm sure someone else has already done plenty of 8" TL/horns that can do 25~30hz.
I would love to know if it's possible to do a skinny tall TL/horn that will do 30hz to 80hz with a 6.5" driver that is good quality on 100~300 watts at 4ohm with a smaller foot print, just something taller but skinny and not too deep.
Very best,
For reference; a T/S max flat alignment is Vb = Vas, Fb = Fs, Qts = ~0.403, ergo:
< ~0.403: Vb = < Vas, Fb = > Fs
So at a glance, none of your linked choices are sufficient to meet my understanding of your 'strong' goals without at least (8) drivers = 20log(8) = +18 dB referenced to a driver's mid-band efficiency, which may (too often not with el cheapo drivers) be accurately published.
FYI/FWIW/YMMV, a single DCS205-4 (default = most basic bi-fold) TH I did out of curiosity awhile back = 44.9 L = 89.8 L net for dual + actual box construction additions, so DL HR, file and use IMPORT to view, otherwise:
Sim in 2pi space = ~33 - 103 Hz F3/85 dB/W/m; ~105 dB/40 W max, so ~ +6 dB for two
There can of course be better performing TL/horn options with the trade-off being larger.
Thanks,
Yea modeled a couple of them and none of them will do.
I am intrigued with the idea of a tall skinny simple TL/horn build. Was just reading a thread about them, no angled folds, just bends and stuffing at various points. Tall ones wouldn't need to be folded much. I need to learn to understand the concepts and hornresp I suppose.
Very best,
Yea modeled a couple of them and none of them will do.
I am intrigued with the idea of a tall skinny simple TL/horn build. Was just reading a thread about them, no angled folds, just bends and stuffing at various points. Tall ones wouldn't need to be folded much. I need to learn to understand the concepts and hornresp I suppose.
Very best,
A single-fold tapped horn, using a single or double driver could cover that frequency range, and would be approximately equal in output to a double the drivers in a similar size box tuned to the same frequency, around 28 Hz.
Been so long since I've done/seen a small TH I'd forgotten that this cheap 8" driver is the one to use with plenty of designs scattered across the net over time tuned as low as ~18 Hz.
Interesting, would love to see a design that could use a 6.5" driver an do 30~80hz (even if the 30hz was F3, though ideally would prefer F3 be under 30hz). I don't mind buying a good driver to do the job.
Maybe something like the Tang Band W6-1139SIF 6.5" with 11.5mm xmax?
https://www.parts-express.com/Tang-Band-W6-1139SIF-6-1-2-Paper-Cone-Subwoofer-Speaker-264-919
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
@GM , Neat driver, thanks!
Very best,