Hello,
My first project was the Pensil Alpair10p. I have been listening to these speakers the past year and enjoy them very much. As you know they are great with vocals and single instruments music but don't do well with more complex music such as rock which I listen to mostly. I understand the limitations of fullranger and accept them.
As for my second project, I am looking for higher end driver in the $1000/pr price range to build as 40L-50L standmount monitor to match my 6 watt SEP EL84 tube amp. The 2 that come up regularly during my searches are the Supravox 215 RTF and the Jordan Eikona 2.Both have great reviews but will they match up with my 6 watt amp?I have my doubts.The Jordan's sensitivity is 86db and I read that they need current to sound their best.
The Supravox look like a better option in a bass reflex monitor with a Qts=0.46 and sensitivity of 98db. I read that ideally a driver with a Qts = .27-.35 is best for a ported enclosure.I will let the more knowledgeable DIYer comment on that.
Are there better drivers than the Supravox for my intended project?
I appreciate your comments
My first project was the Pensil Alpair10p. I have been listening to these speakers the past year and enjoy them very much. As you know they are great with vocals and single instruments music but don't do well with more complex music such as rock which I listen to mostly. I understand the limitations of fullranger and accept them.
As for my second project, I am looking for higher end driver in the $1000/pr price range to build as 40L-50L standmount monitor to match my 6 watt SEP EL84 tube amp. The 2 that come up regularly during my searches are the Supravox 215 RTF and the Jordan Eikona 2.Both have great reviews but will they match up with my 6 watt amp?I have my doubts.The Jordan's sensitivity is 86db and I read that they need current to sound their best.
The Supravox look like a better option in a bass reflex monitor with a Qts=0.46 and sensitivity of 98db. I read that ideally a driver with a Qts = .27-.35 is best for a ported enclosure.I will let the more knowledgeable DIYer comment on that.
Are there better drivers than the Supravox for my intended project?
I appreciate your comments
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Frankly, if rock is your staple music diet (I've got Patti Smith's Gung Ho playing as I type 😉 ), then unsupported wideband drivers of any type are unlikely to be ideal. Especially if you have only 6w to drive them with. The Jordan is a good unit, the Supravox might be, although their advertised data doesn't entirely add up. 40 - 50 litres would be severely undersized for the latter -minimum really would be Vb = Vas, Fb = Fs, damped to taste via the old click test.
Personally, I'd be more inclined to look at either a 2-way using a wideband mid-tweet, or some other form of high efficiency multiway system e.g. one of the Pi setups Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance or if you feel so inclined, a wideband midbass supported by a supertweeter. It's more likely (in my view) to be optimal for the kind of music you say you tend to listen to.
Personally, I'd be more inclined to look at either a 2-way using a wideband mid-tweet, or some other form of high efficiency multiway system e.g. one of the Pi setups Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance or if you feel so inclined, a wideband midbass supported by a supertweeter. It's more likely (in my view) to be optimal for the kind of music you say you tend to listen to.
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Kinda sounds like you just need more power. Have you tried any other amps with you 10p's? And there's no way you're getting 6 watts out of a single EL84, at least not without 10% THD.
Or, go 2-way as Scott suggests. Then you will definitely need a different amp.
jeff
Or, go 2-way as Scott suggests. Then you will definitely need a different amp.
jeff
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Hello Scottmoose,
I was looking at 2 way speaker using Faitalpro pro drivers but decided against it since it was going to be a full on custom design including designing crossovers.
I could have bought ready made crossovers but that would not have been optimal for the chosen drivers.The risk of failure was too high so I decided to go on a different path.That lead me to a proven DIY Kit from Troels Gravesen called the Quattro MK ll 2 way standmount. This option was really interesting but again decided against it for 2 reasons.1) The end result would have been a speaker with a sensitivity of 90 db, which I don't think would have been a good match for my 6 watt amp and 2) I would have had to order it from over seas. Taxes and duties would bring the cost to more than double what I am willing to spend.
The Pensil 10p were fine with rock but I was comparing them to my Klipsch Forte ll which do rock better than the Pensil. I thought that better fullrange drivers would make rock a little better. BTW, I don't just listen to rock but less complex music as well.
And there's no way you're getting 6 watts out of a single EL84
The amp is a Finale and Frank assured me it was 6 watts and I have no reasons to doubt him.
I was looking at 2 way speaker using Faitalpro pro drivers but decided against it since it was going to be a full on custom design including designing crossovers.
I could have bought ready made crossovers but that would not have been optimal for the chosen drivers.The risk of failure was too high so I decided to go on a different path.That lead me to a proven DIY Kit from Troels Gravesen called the Quattro MK ll 2 way standmount. This option was really interesting but again decided against it for 2 reasons.1) The end result would have been a speaker with a sensitivity of 90 db, which I don't think would have been a good match for my 6 watt amp and 2) I would have had to order it from over seas. Taxes and duties would bring the cost to more than double what I am willing to spend.
The Pensil 10p were fine with rock but I was comparing them to my Klipsch Forte ll which do rock better than the Pensil. I thought that better fullrange drivers would make rock a little better. BTW, I don't just listen to rock but less complex music as well.
And there's no way you're getting 6 watts out of a single EL84
The amp is a Finale and Frank assured me it was 6 watts and I have no reasons to doubt him.
So you already have speakers that can do rock.😕
I'm guessing you want something in between. What about a WAW with A12pw + A5.3?
jeff
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Would the Supravox 215RTF Qts=0.46 be a good option for a bass reflex monitor? What would the optimal box volume be?
Does anyone have experience with Audio Nirvana Alnico drivers?
How about EMS drivers?
Thanks
Does anyone have experience with Audio Nirvana Alnico drivers?
How about EMS drivers?
Thanks
Re the Supravox, see my post above. Minimum realistic for that unit would be Vb = Vas, Fb = Fs, damped to taste using the old click test.
Re Audio Nirvana, the AlNiCo drivers have extremely high Q values, so are not especially well suited to most vented boxes, though with a bit of fooling they could be made to work in a classical[ish] alignment -the 5.6ft^3 would be a sensible minimum box size though for most.
Re EMS -pass.
As an observation, spending more on wideband drive units does not necessarily get you superior performance. You'd hope it would, but it doesn't always (often doesn't) work out that way.
Re Audio Nirvana, the AlNiCo drivers have extremely high Q values, so are not especially well suited to most vented boxes, though with a bit of fooling they could be made to work in a classical[ish] alignment -the 5.6ft^3 would be a sensible minimum box size though for most.
Re EMS -pass.
As an observation, spending more on wideband drive units does not necessarily get you superior performance. You'd hope it would, but it doesn't always (often doesn't) work out that way.
Ok I might have found something interesting but would need some advise.
As you know I built a Pensil 10p, so I went back on frugal-phile and saw the DBR and the Golden Ratio MarKen plans for the Alpair 12p.The Alpair 12p driver being 92db might work fine with my 6 watt tube amp since the 10p does a good job.Which one of these 2 designs would work better for me? I believe the DBR plans are for the older Alpair 12.Is there one for the newer Alpair 10p?
As you know I built a Pensil 10p, so I went back on frugal-phile and saw the DBR and the Golden Ratio MarKen plans for the Alpair 12p.The Alpair 12p driver being 92db might work fine with my 6 watt tube amp since the 10p does a good job.Which one of these 2 designs would work better for me? I believe the DBR plans are for the older Alpair 12.Is there one for the newer Alpair 10p?
How about the 10f supported by RS225 as in X's design?
The sealed box is quite capable, but the TL version would certainly be able to play anything you throw at them.
The XO is quite easy and simple. Just follow the diagram.
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
The sealed box is quite capable, but the TL version would certainly be able to play anything you throw at them.
The XO is quite easy and simple. Just follow the diagram.
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
Good speaker -might be a bit low on the old SPL front though for the amplifier in question. IIRC (and I'm speaking under correction) isn't it averaging about 82dB 1m/2.83v?
Correct, the DBR was for the original Alpair 12. The 12P doesn't really suit that load. So the mar-Ken would be a better bet for obvious reasons. The 12P doesn't get quite as low as the 10P in most boxes as it's a lower Q driver, although I prefer it myself for its dynamic range & what is to me a superior handling of microdynamics. I know Dave favours the 10P though, so YMMV on that front. The 12P does work quite well with lower power amplifiers -a friend of mine in Scotland has, or had, a pair in custom MLTLs I designed for him with a SET that likely had about 6w output, although I don't know for certain on that latter point.
I must admit... For all the time I spend reading about things I'll never do, XRKs FAST is one I would feel best about attempting. Everything I've seen on it is very positive and sounds like a speaker that would work in many domestic situations. A coworker wanted to build speakers and tried to coax a higher budget out of them as I wanted them to build them. Your power situation tho will probably make them too inefficient for your requirements.
The game changer for me and what led me down a good road was a pair of Visaton B200 with Planet 10 plugs and a quad of Goldwood 1858 in HFrames with an Ashly XR2000 crossover. May not be your cup of tea, but it really helped the B200 out and made things come alive. My listening ranges from simple single songwriter stuff like Billy Bragg to Slayer, and everything in between.
Swapping to an open baffle coaxial 15" full range and running it off a TPA3116 was another game changer. The amp was only putting out like 25 watts or so per channel but it was more than enough. I mounted the 1858s on a flat baffle, MTM but then slot loaded the fronts. Should have added wings too. The coaxial was far from perfect but it did so many other things right that I was content.
All of these setups cost less than $1000 as everything but the Goldwood were used. I'm not advocating for open baffle over boxes, or anything in particular. While I admire smaller full range stuff, it really is an experience going to large high efficiency designs, especially with your tube amp.ig you have the space and the wife that we all wish we could have, then I'd suggest something large.
The game changer for me and what led me down a good road was a pair of Visaton B200 with Planet 10 plugs and a quad of Goldwood 1858 in HFrames with an Ashly XR2000 crossover. May not be your cup of tea, but it really helped the B200 out and made things come alive. My listening ranges from simple single songwriter stuff like Billy Bragg to Slayer, and everything in between.
Swapping to an open baffle coaxial 15" full range and running it off a TPA3116 was another game changer. The amp was only putting out like 25 watts or so per channel but it was more than enough. I mounted the 1858s on a flat baffle, MTM but then slot loaded the fronts. Should have added wings too. The coaxial was far from perfect but it did so many other things right that I was content.
All of these setups cost less than $1000 as everything but the Goldwood were used. I'm not advocating for open baffle over boxes, or anything in particular. While I admire smaller full range stuff, it really is an experience going to large high efficiency designs, especially with your tube amp.ig you have the space and the wife that we all wish we could have, then I'd suggest something large.
The best will be use a high efficient fullrange for the top, and add a sub with an other amp. The only other option i know that would be fit for that, would be a Fane 12-250TC in a huge 300L ported cabinet tuned to 30Hz. The driver is 98dB efficient, and it can take a lot as it was ment as pro audio driver, but on the same time it has a low mms so fit for low power and it has decent details in the sound (not like the Mark Audio's, but still better than most big fullrange drivers) and reasonable flat response for off axis listening. And it's very cheap for what it delivers.
If you can live with a little bass, that same driver in a 80L sealed works also. But the response is only to 50Hz.
But in most cases, i would make a multiway, or at least a waw and use amps that are a bit more powerfull (15-30w is mostly enough). For more heavy complex music i use a waw with an Alpair 10.3 and a 10" Scanspeak 26w/8534G00 woofer and a crossover at 250Hz. But there are many ways to do it right with a waw. That system is powered with an amp between 20 and 45w (i switch amps from system to system these days ;-) )
If you can live with a little bass, that same driver in a 80L sealed works also. But the response is only to 50Hz.
But in most cases, i would make a multiway, or at least a waw and use amps that are a bit more powerfull (15-30w is mostly enough). For more heavy complex music i use a waw with an Alpair 10.3 and a 10" Scanspeak 26w/8534G00 woofer and a crossover at 250Hz. But there are many ways to do it right with a waw. That system is powered with an amp between 20 and 45w (i switch amps from system to system these days ;-) )
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Scottmoose,
The DBR has an internal volume of 37L's. Would the 12p work in a simple 40-50L bass reflex rear ported enclosure? What is the optimal box volume for the 12p? This would be an easy build for me similiar to the Pensil 10p.
If this won't work, can someone recommend a proven large standmount (40-50L) design with whatever fullrange driver?I will look into the Visaton B200.
I am still open to the 2 way option but it would have to be a proven design that will work with a low power tube amp. Is the sound quality of a pro driver as good as a hifi driver?
The DBR has an internal volume of 37L's. Would the 12p work in a simple 40-50L bass reflex rear ported enclosure? What is the optimal box volume for the 12p? This would be an easy build for me similiar to the Pensil 10p.
If this won't work, can someone recommend a proven large standmount (40-50L) design with whatever fullrange driver?I will look into the Visaton B200.
I am still open to the 2 way option but it would have to be a proven design that will work with a low power tube amp. Is the sound quality of a pro driver as good as a hifi driver?
Yes, but you'd need about 5 1/2ohms series R to get the alignment into shape, which would rather negate the point, and won't help power-handling in general.
'Optimal' is a floating point that varies with design objectives, so there's no simple answer to that one unfortunately. Assuming a near-voltage source, then my favourite vented box for the 12P is actually this one I designed when the driver first came out: http://www.madisound.com/pdf/SmallReflexA122p-191012.pdf It doesn't get especially low, but I like most other things about it.
Any particular reason that it has to be 40 - 50 litres? Typically you design an enclosure for a driver according to its requirements, assuming both match the acoustic objectives.
I avoid references to subjective sound like the plague, but short version: yes, good ones can. Or superior. There are a number of 2-way designs floating around here; Dave's big MTM using the 12PW & various mid-tweeter options are a good example (being designed for more or less this sort of thing). Have a look around.
bianchi,
xrk971's RS225 FAST TL speakers are very good, but 6 watts would not be adequate.
There's another FAST/WAW project called the Halcyon which uses the Alpair 10P as the mid-tweeter. You might consider looking up that one too. Madisound sells kits including XO. However, this speaker would also need more power vs what a small SET an offer.
I haven't been able to satisfy myself for rock, metal and electronica with a single driver system, and hence now listening to FAST/WAW and 2 ways. And I've had to move on from low power tube amps also. 🙂
xrk971's RS225 FAST TL speakers are very good, but 6 watts would not be adequate.
There's another FAST/WAW project called the Halcyon which uses the Alpair 10P as the mid-tweeter. You might consider looking up that one too. Madisound sells kits including XO. However, this speaker would also need more power vs what a small SET an offer.
I haven't been able to satisfy myself for rock, metal and electronica with a single driver system, and hence now listening to FAST/WAW and 2 ways. And I've had to move on from low power tube amps also. 🙂
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The visaton I mentioned is ideally an open baffle driver but have seen it used in boxes as well... Check the Omega speaker IIRC
Any particular reason that it has to be 40 - 50 litres?
I like the size of your DBR and I rounded up to 40 and went to 50 for flexibility.
Yes, but you'd need about 5 1/2ohms series R to get the alignment into shape, which would rather negate the point, and won't help power-handling in general.
Not sure I understand this but how would I do this? What's involved?
I avoid references to subjective sound like the plague, but short version: yes, good ones can. Or superior.
Would a high efficiency pro driver with a tweeter/mid ie SEAS T35C002 work?
What good brand of pro woofer would you recommend? I was looking at Faitalpro and I can get Fane locally.
I like the size of your DBR and I rounded up to 40 and went to 50 for flexibility.
Yes, but you'd need about 5 1/2ohms series R to get the alignment into shape, which would rather negate the point, and won't help power-handling in general.
Not sure I understand this but how would I do this? What's involved?
I avoid references to subjective sound like the plague, but short version: yes, good ones can. Or superior.
Would a high efficiency pro driver with a tweeter/mid ie SEAS T35C002 work?
What good brand of pro woofer would you recommend? I was looking at Faitalpro and I can get Fane locally.
Re series R, it's quite literally a power-resistor of given value inserted in series with the driver to artifically raise effective Q. The price is efficiency loss, so not much use with a low power amplifier, although yours likely has a highish output impedance already.
In terms of brands, it frankly depends on what you want to spend. Faital, Fane, Eminence, JBL et al all produce good units, and there are plenty of others.
You may wish to look at Joe's Elsinore which should have sufficient output to blow the three little pigs' brick house down in a modest space. By modern standards anyway. And while input Zobels are not exactly an exclusive to the Elsinore, having a flat impedance will keep your amplifier happy.
In terms of brands, it frankly depends on what you want to spend. Faital, Fane, Eminence, JBL et al all produce good units, and there are plenty of others.
You may wish to look at Joe's Elsinore which should have sufficient output to blow the three little pigs' brick house down in a modest space. By modern standards anyway. And while input Zobels are not exactly an exclusive to the Elsinore, having a flat impedance will keep your amplifier happy.
True.
But wanting more rock and still using a 6w amp.... Somethings will have to give along the way.